General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLast Night's Select Committee Hearing - Mens Rea and Actus Reus/General and Specific Intent
The information and evidence released last night on the mental state of the President immediately after the election was presented in a detailed and coherent fashion. One of the first things attorneys learn in criminal law (at almost any law school worth its salt) is that there must be both an intent to commit an unlawful act (mens rea) and that that unlawful act must be committed (the physical element). This is being done both for the benefit of the American people and for Merrick Garland.
Liz Cheney was spot on in her presentation of both of these by providing the video testimony of Bill Barr (the top law enforcement official at the time of the 2020 election). Barr told President Trump that there was no widespread fraud committed in the 2020 election AND that any action taken to pursue claims of widespread fraud were nonsense and possibly illegal. He said this in the presence of Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, Trump's inner circle elections lawyer and numbers cruncher in the days immediately following the election.
His actions thereafter show that he ignored what was told to him by the top law enforcement officer of the United States regarding the election and chose to pursue meritless claims in the courts and also goaded his supporters on January 6, 2021, (through tweets prior to and on the day of the attack) to go to the Capitol and try to stop the lawful certification of the election. Coupled with this, during his speech at the Ellipse on January 6, 2021, he specifically mentions Mike Pence by name to all of those who were attending as the catalyst for executing his plan to have votes of electors decertified and returned to Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Arizona. His plan to overturn the election 100% hinged on whether Pence would agree to this strategy. Pence didn't, hence his supporters chanting, "Hang Mike Pence!" when they breached the capitol.
His failure to act by contacting the D.C. National Guard and commanding them to secure the capitol after the breach (and moreover, praising those who had breached the capitol and fought with, injured, and even killed capitol police) goes back to his criminal act of inciting a riot, which according to 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2102 only requires that one, at minimum, "encourage the participation" in a riot.
... and this isn't all of what he's done. We're just getting started. The nail in his coffin will likely be the evidence generated from the grand jury proceeding in Fulton County.
There's a reason why so many of the folks that were within his orbit are taking the 5th.
Mens Rea/Actus Reus and General/Specific Intent are there.
in2herbs
(2,945 posts)was acting outside and in violation of his presidential responsibilities is he entitled to immunity if, for instance, the wife of the slain officer(s) decided to sue TFG in his person, could the immunity be pierced and expose TFG to a personal claim?
lindysalsagal
(20,679 posts)Renaissance Man
(669 posts)Yes, he can be exposed to a personal claim. This link explains it in more detail:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-trump-cannot-hide-behind-presidential-immunity-inciting-insurrection
lindysalsagal
(20,679 posts)For the record and gop to allow him to run again. That has to be accomplished, or the world will never trust us, again.
Scrivener7
(50,949 posts)drray23
(7,627 posts)I did not go to law school so it is not clear to me which crimes do and which don't require to prove mens rea.
Do all crimes require the prosecution to establish mens rea ?
There is this common saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Is that just a meme or is it true in some instances?
Renaissance Man
(669 posts)Do all crimes require the prosecution to establish mens rea ?
Not all crimes. There are some crimes that don't require establishing general or specific criminal intent (those that are based upon the theory of criminal negligence). This is why there is a difference between murder (which generally requires general or specific intent) and manslaughter (which doesn't require the element of general or specific intent).
Ignorance of the law is no excuse and is not a defense to any criminal act. That's true in all instances.