I know Michael Moore is not universally popular here,

[cilla4progress]

but for you who are fans of this imperfect champion, or who are just interested - did you know this about him?

I did not!

From his substack:

https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/i-was-elected-50-years-ago-today. :

50 years ago today, I became the youngest-ever elected official in the state of Michigan, the first 18-year-old to do so. I was one of just a handful of 18-year-olds across the country to be voted into office after the recently-passed amendment to the U.S. Constitution lowering the voting age from 21 to 18.

[elleng]

1. Thanks

[Siwsan]

2. I've had a love/like/WTF??? relationship with Michael, for years

I know a number of people who were in high school with him. He went to a 'rival' school.

I first met him when he was at 'Flint Voice', years and years ago. I saw him, again, years later at an award ceremony. Still the same nice, shy, really sweet guy. However, I understand he takes on a whole different personality when he's working on a documentary. Understandable but I guess he can be pretty hard to please.

As for his stint on the Davison Schools Board of Education - I remember my dad being flabbergasted. He was an administrator at another county school but, of course, knew many of the people in Davison.

Me? I was pretty geeked. This was about a year before I met him.

[rgbecker]

3. When it comes to movies that get right to the point....

You cannot beat the collection made by Michael Moore. Sorry if you have some issue with him, but you really should take a look at the guy's productions.

[CrispyQ]

11. +1

When Fahrenheit 9/11 came out, I thought it was the beginning of people waking up to what Bush/Cheney had actually done in regards to the Iraq war. I had some anti-Bush bumper stickers on my vehicle & the hostility I experienced in my very blue area was surprising. But after Moore's movie came out, things started to change.

I hope that that's what the J6 hearings do.

[Skittles]

4. I did know that

I also attended a speech he gave in Texas. I don't hate Mr. Moore but if does feel like he went off the rails for a while.

[underpants]

15. I did. He reached out to the just out of high school crowd

Stoners, straight to work, working through school people.
I don’t know if was a specific district or a top vote getters situation.
He went directly after the principal of his high school and gave the guy holy hell. My friends have accepted him into the Punk Rock Army. We are guys who grew up basically around the water but we love a F U when we see one.

[Evolve Dammit]

5. I've always thought his documentaries were well done. "Fahrenheit 9-11"and "Sicko" are great. n/t

[cab67]

20. but Planet of the Humans is not.

It got a lot of things wrong.

[wnylib]

31. Yes they are. Loved both.

[Farmer-Rick]

6. Yes, that's how he started in politics

Those handful of 18 year olds scared the crap out of the filthy rich grumpy old men. They vowed to never let it happen again........

And now we have mostly 70 and 80 year olds in power....look at the mess they have made. Though on the Supremes they had to put young perverts on the court cause they didn't want those 70 and 80 year old tools dying off too soon.

What a crap fest these old rich guys have created.

[LittleGirl]

8. +1 nt

[JanMichael]

7. I had no idea. Whatever any person (deleted) may say about him his heart is in the right place.

[myohmy2]

10. +1...

...

[Magoo48]

37. Agreed, he takes action on behalf of the voiceless. People who take action are criticized.

I say—keep working Michael.

[multigraincracker]

9. Has been a voice for union workers.

That alone gets my vote.

[gab13by13]

12. Same here,

[spike jones]

13. I met him on the street in Seattle during the 1999 WTO demostrations.

He and his camera guy were in front of the Paramount Theater and he was talking about how good it was that the hardhats and environmentists were working together. He joked about how "bad" the protesters were treating the WTO visitors in Seattle. He seemed to be a cool guy.

[erronis]

14. I've enjoyed his products but find his overwhelming personality to be difficult to deal with.

Not sure how to say this better.

Perhaps: A good documentarian should not put themselves front and center for too much of a presentation.

[rubbersole]

16. He makes the wing nuts heads explode.

That's enough for me!
He has an Oscar. Fearless truth teller.

[AntivaxHunters]

17. I'm a fan

because he shoots straight and that is very lacking today. Honesty is a lost art and he's one of the best.

[H2O Man]

18. Recommended.

I like and respect him.

[Tree Lady]

19. He is how I got here I heard about him

Not sure where but on his website was a link to this forum in 2004.

I was volunteering during Kerry campaign in bay area and doing some stuff with Sierra Club, I might have heard about him from some people I met there.

[garybeck]

21. His movie about renewable energy was filled with lies. n/t

[TomWilm]

22. I actually like the man, but he is not a documentarian ...

... he writes editorials, very loosely based on facts. By putting so many mistakes into his movies, he makes it way to easy to reject their whole message...

[marble falls]

23. meh. What has he done lately?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. He's great!!!!! Always has been!!!

[Joinfortmill]

25. Cool

[NNadir]

26. He hasn't become less puerile since. I would suspect he was less odious when he was 18. n/t.

[progree]

27. Michael Moore supported Ralph Nader and the Green Party in the 2000 election

that Bush officially won thanks to the tiniest of margins in Florida (and the U.S. Supreme Court stopping the recount in Bush v Gore). But which a press consortium recount later determined Gore had gotten more votes in Florida than Bush.

So yeah, isn't he wonderful

I'm shocked I didn't see any mention of this in the first 26 comments in this thread.

[rubbersole]

28. Blaming Nader votes for W's victory is uninformed.

Jeb caged 80,000+ mainly Latinos off the voting rolls 2 weeks before the election. Over 600,000 democrats would have had to vote republican for the results to be what they were when the counting was stopped. It politicized the SC in the eyes of millions of Americans forever.
Google Nader's Madison Square Garden 2000 speech. Every thing he said was prescient. What our country could have been like if people like Ralph Nader had been selected to serve. Love you, progree!

[progree]

32. There were many things that tilted the balance. Still, had Nader not been in the race

Gore would have won Florida.

First, note that officially, Bush beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. Nader got 97,488 votes in Florida. {1}

I have heard and read Nader make the dubious claim:

"In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all." {2}

Well, that still means a net of 13%, or 12,665, more votes would have gone to Gore than to Bush {2}. That's overwhelming more than the 537 vote Bush victory margin.

This one has 21% would have voted for Bush, and 47% would have voted for Gore, for a 26% gap, or 25,347 more votes for Gore than Bush {3}

{1} http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html
{2} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader_presidential_campaign,_2000
{3} http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
` http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nader-to-crash-dems-party/

Yes, yes, I know there were a number of reasons Bush officially beat Gore -- ALL of them were essential to Bush's victory -- IF EVEN ONE of these elements had been missing, Bush would have officially lost,

e.g. besides Nader’s candidacy, Kathleen Harris purging the voting lists of supposed felons, Gore running a poor campaign (in so so many ways), media dubbing Gore a serial liar (Love Story and all that), the butterfly ballots giving Gore's votes to Buchanan, the U.S. Supreme Court stopping the recount -- yada.

But it doesn't wipe out the fact that even with all that, Gore would have won if not for Nader drawing thousands more votes away from Gore than from Bush.

As for the Supreme Court -- if the vote count on election night and the days and weeks after the election had put Gore ahead by 12,000 or 25,000 votes instead of down by 500 or 600, it would unlikely have gone to the Supreme Court; and even less likely that they would have declared the 12,000 or 25,000 vote count loser to be the winner of Florida's electoral votes.

And Nader broke his pledge (made when getting petition signatures to get on the ballot in several states) to not campaign in swing states, and instead did his utmost to defeat Gore. And yet Michael Moore supported him all the way.

And Nader trashing the Democrats as being as bad as the Republicans no doubt also affected some voters to not vote for a president or to stay home - things not captured in the election statistics.

Love you too, rubbersole

[rubbersole]

33. Nader's voters were a drop in the bucket of the ratfuckery in that election. at election

Gore won. Bush stole the election. Read. Love you all. 😍

[progree]

34. only with the help of the 12,000 more votes (according to Nader) that Nader drew from Gore

than from Bush.

Bush stole the election. Read.

Yes, but with the essential help of Nader pulling in 12,000 (according to Nader) more votes from Gore than from Bush. In a race that Bush officially won by 537 votes.

Once again --

Yes, yes, I know there were a number of reasons Bush officially beat Gore -- ALL of them were essential to Bush's victory -- IF EVEN ONE of these elements had been missing, Bush would have officially lost,

e.g. besides Nader’s candidacy, Kathleen Harris purging the voting lists of supposed felons, Gore running a poor campaign (in so so many ways), media dubbing Gore a serial liar (Love Story and all that), the butterfly ballots giving Gore's votes to Buchanan, the U.S. Supreme Court stopping the recount -- yada.

But it doesn't wipe out the fact that even with all that, Gore would have won if not for Nader drawing thousands more votes away from Gore than from Bush.

Yes, the factors you cite in #28 were larger than the 12,000 or 26,000 more votes that Nader drew from Gore than from Bush. Yes yes yes.

But again, it doesn't wipe out the fact that even with all that, Gore would have won if not for Nader drawing thousands more votes away from Gore than from Bush. In a race that Bush officially won by 537 votes.

From #28 --

Google Nader's Madison Square Garden 2000 speech. Every thing he said was prescient.

I'm sure it was, with Bush being president, thanks to Nader and Michael Moore. And the 2 Bush RW Supreme Court "justices" -- Roberts and Alito.

[TigressDem]

39. I think Nader was great to get the conversation going on a progressive note.

Maybe if early on he had offered Nader the VP slot, they could have both kicked butt.

Hind sight is 20-20

[LisaM]

48. Nader also lied.

He said he would not campaign in any competitive state. Florida was a very competitive state.

He also said there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between Bush and Gore. Either that was another lie, or (if he believed it) it showed he wasn't qualified to be president. He also didn't belong to the party on whose ticket he was running (where have I seen that one since then?)

I think Michael Moore also knee-capped Hillary's campaign and for that, I will never forgive him.

[progree]

35. "What our country could have been like if people like Ralph Nader had been selected to serve."

Google Nader's Madison Square Garden 2000 speech. Every thing he said was prescient. What our country could have been like if people like Ralph Nader had been selected to serve.

From the Terms of Service that we all had to read and agree to in order to post:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

Support Democrats
Do not post support for Republicans or independent/third-party "spoiler" candidates.

Emphasis added.

The reason we are a bit hyper-sensitive around here is because we got Bush in 2000, thanks to too many usually Democrat-supporting fuzzy-brained ring-a-ding-dongs that instead voted for Nader, even knowing (or should have known) that he had Zero chance of being elected.

[TigressDem]

41. With as many candidates as we have, maybe ranked choice voting would be good.

THEN you could still support someone in spirit, but not take away from the leader against the opposition.

[CrackityJones75]

42. Giggle

I agree with your post but out of self preservation that is all I can say on the matter. Ironic!

[rubbersole]

55. I'm not supporting any candidate...."people like Ralph Nader"

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2022, 03:08 PM - Edit history (1)

My entire point was that Nader was wasn't the reason Bush won Florida. Jeb, Kathrine Harris, the khaki mini mob with future SC justices and all the republican's fixers (Baker) there in person were going to steal that election no matter what. Blaming Nader is ignoring all the more serious things you mentioned. Thom Hartmann explains it far more intelligently than I ever could (I don't have a link, sorry). Nader's MSG 2000 speech is full of empathy and reflective of a person that sees the purpose of government is to serve the majority of the people. Bush and Cheney being installed was the tipping point for the eventual end of "the American dream".

[progree]

57. Nader's candidacy made the election close enuf for Bush to steal

"My entire point was that Nader was wasn't the reason Bush won Florida. Jeb, Kathrine Harris, the khaki mini mob with future SC justices" blah blah

I've made it clear time and time again that there many factors, most larger than the 12,000 plus votes on net that Nader siphoned from Gore, that led to Bush winning officially by 539 votes. Including Jeb and Kathleen Harris. The Supreme Court would not have awarded the election to Bush if had been down by 11000 plus votes. It wouldn't have even gotten to the SC.

And again something I've made clear time and time again, that those 12000 plus votes were ESSENTIAL to bush's victory. Otw he would have ended down by 11000+ votes.

Inarguably, Nader's candidacy and those 12000 net votes made the election close enuf for Bush to steal the election by just 539 votes.

[rubbersole]

58. Love your passion, progree!

[questionseverything]

60. The country got bush because the votes were not counted

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2022, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Why don’t you place the blame where it belongs?

On repubs and the supremes

Or even the freaking system that lets a machine spit out a winner rather than human beings hand counting the ballots

It is now illegal to examine the ballots, in Florida recounts mean running ballots through the same machines

[progree]

73. OK. CRIME (or should be): stealing an election in the many ways described above.

NOT A CRIME (and should not be): running as a 3rd party candidate.

However, Nader knew his candidacy would draw more votes away from Gore than Bush, and he campaigned vigorously in swing states, including Florida, despite promising not to in order to get enough signatures to get on the ballots. And trashing Gore and the Democrats a lot more than Bush and the Republicans, and arguing disingenuously that there is essentially no difference between the two parties. Not a crime, but he was and is a liar and a first class horse's ass. The people who argue that he had no effect on the outcome when he obviously did -- uhh, well, fuzzy thinking at best.

Yes, what the Republicans did was far worse than what Nader did. Yes, yes, yes.

But again, as I said in #57 (and in #32 and #34)

Nader's candidacy made the election close enuf for Bush to steal

... I've made it clear time and time again that there many factors, most larger than the 12,000 plus votes on net that Nader siphoned from Gore, that led to Bush winning officially by 537 votes. Including Jeb and Kathleen Harris. The Supreme Court would not have awarded the election to Bush if had been down by 11000 plus votes. It wouldn't have even gotten to the SC.

And again something I've made clear time and time again, that those 12000 plus votes were ESSENTIAL to Bush's victory. Otw he would have ended down by 11000+ votes.

Inarguably, Nader's candidacy and those 12,000 net votes made the election close enuf for Bush to steal the election by just 537 votes.

If a recount had been stopped with Bush 11,000 votes down (or nearly 25,000 votes down according to source {3} in #32), the Supreme Court would not have declared Bush the winner. In the 2016 election, Biden won by 11,779 in Georgia, 10,457 in Arizona, and 20,608 in Wisconsin, and the Supreme Court didn't flip those states nor even hear those cases.

[Cha]

63. Thank you for all of this.. I agree..

Michael Moore is not all that.

He also stated that President Obama would only be known for being the First Black President.

I don't like him at all.

Complete Bullshit..

Michael Moore Slams Obama: History Will Only Remember You Were a Black President ..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10025513223

💙💛

[redstateblues]

29. Nader helped Bush win.

Not a dimes worth of difference between Bush and Gore? Nader is an narcissist who only cared about himself

[CrackityJones75]

43. He is on AM950 here bashing democrats everyday.

Nothing changes. Same old tune.

[SYFROYH]

56. I think of Michael Moore as a millenial activist proto-type

Someone who is uninterested in the status quo or normal ways of doing things.

Willing to speak out and sometimes says great things, but also some goofy things.

Gives few fucks to those who want him to play nice with the PTB within our party.

[stollen]

30. Where has Michael been lately?

I miss him.

[Willto]

36. With Friends Like Michael

who needs enemies. Every time I see him on a TV show he spends the vast majority of his time smearing shit on Democrats.

For years now he basically goes on shows and predicts doom and gloom for Democrats if they don't heed his advice or support his candidate of choice. Even though the things and people he often advocates would most assuredly hurt our election chances.

If the Democrats win he slinks away and hides for a while as we celebrate and forget his inaccurate gloomy forecast. If the Democrats do lose big he returns for his "I told you so" tour of the talk shows as they let him sit there acting as if he were a prophet instead of outing him for his 50 percent accuracy rate. It's a no lose tactic that he has been allowed to get away with by his adoring fans for far too long.

[LisaM]

49. +1000

Spot-on description.

[Tommy Carcetti]

38. I do think his one attempt at fiction--Canadian Bacon--is a grossly underrated gem.

One of my favorite comedies with a lot of hilarious lines.

And I think Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 911 were both solid documentaries.

In more recent years, he has swayed into Susan Sarandon obnoxious purist self-sabotaging territory, but that's not to discount that he does have talent.

[Tarc]

40. "Canadian Bacon" was hilarious. Most of his documentaries are self-indulgent whinges

[Snackshack]

44. I have not always

Agreed with his tactics but I have nothing but respect for the man.

Imagine how much better off this country would be if more people had the drive, desire and enthusiasm that he does to make the country a better and more just place.

[betsuni]

45. "One of the reasons I made this movie is I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of

the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump is."

Micheal Moore

[mikeysnot]

53. do you have the source of this quote?

Please link...

[betsuni]

69. It was an interview in Toronto, but he's said the same thing many times.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/07/new-film-michael-moore-compares-trump-hitler-hes-not-so-crazy-about-obama-either

He thinks the Democratic Party is "beholden to the same money and interests" as Republicans but worse because Democrats can somehow magically do anything progressive they want but choose not to because corrupt (not having enough votes in Congress, Republicans controlling Congress for six of Clinton and Obama's administrations somehow has nothing to do with it).

The idea is that Democrats know what's right, unlike the innocent Republicans, but refuse to do it, therefore worse. They somehow rig elections (voters don't count). They despise anything progressive because it would help the working/middle classes -- they only care about money from corporations, billionaires and wealthy donors and mindlessly do anything anyone wants because of a campaign contribution over a hundred dollars. Receiving a contribution from someone working on Wall Street is proof of being a Wall Street shill. The corrupt coastal elite establishment gathers in cigar smoke filled backrooms nibbling fancy canapés plotting how to be mean to the nice progressives, will stop at nothing to thwart progress. The same nutty populist fiction.

He tells his audience these things (corrupt corrupt corrupt) then right before presidential elections urges them to vote Democratic.

[Meowmee]

46. Can't stand him and will never waste my time with his films

He is part of the problem and part of the reason we are here, as well as nader and anyone who supported them and the likes of them. These people are all fakes and quite wealthy as well. They will never suffer the consequences of what they have done on any real level unless it goes to full fascism and even then they can buy their way out easily.

[LeftInTX]

54. I don't get the obsession with Fahrenheit 9/11

It's something my kids would like

[Meowmee]

70. I will take your word for it 😀

My brother who watches everything said he saw it and it was ok. I will not watch any of them as I mentioned.

[betsuni]

72. It was 9/11 101, an introductory course.

Good for those who don't follow the news or as you say, kids.

[Quixote1818]

47. I know Moore has been critical of moderate Dem candidates but doesn't he always endorse them

in the end unlike Susan Sarandon?

[LiberalLovinLug]

50. Yes. He produced an anti Trump film for 2016 and toured with it to get the vote out for Hillary

And toured universities and colleges to get the vote out for Obama

As a Canadian liberal, I cringe how many in the American left eat their own for not being perfect

I think he is a national treasure for you. He’s made some of the most poignant and important docs in your history.

[Quixote1818]

51. Thanks. I don't have an issue with him. He obviously does more good than bad and

a bit of self reflection and having a devils advocate like Moore is important.

[anamnua]

52. Personally I think he's a great guy.

Last edited Tue Jun 14, 2022, 08:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I really only got to know him in the run-up to the last presidential election: he strained every sinew to expose Trump
and Trumpism and to get Joe Biden over the line.

[W_HAMILTON]

59. Then you missed him shitting on Hillary...

...and palling around with Julian Assange in the lead-up to the 2016 election that hockey assisted Trump being put in a place where he would need to be """exposed""" to be ousted from office to begin with.

[questionseverything]

61. He actually made an anti trump movie 🎥

[W_HAMILTON]

62. And?

Do you also consider Comey a hero because he spoke out against Donald Trump AFTER he shoved a knife in Hillary's back?

Because I damn sure don't.

[questionseverything]

64. He didn't shit on hc

It’s past time to stop blaming others for her loss

[LiberalLovinLug]

65. +1000

[W_HAMILTON]

66. I'll take that as a yes.

When we view Michael Moore and James Comey as our so-called heroes, no wonder we lose otherwise winnable elections.

And when Julian Assange was information laundering Russian criminals that hacked into the DNC, this was what Michael Moore was doing:



It'd be one thing if Moore made a mistake and owned up to it, but this is the second time in 20 years that he fucked over a good Democrat and led to a Republican winning the White House. Fuck him forever.

[questionseverything]

67. We both know I can't actually debate you w/o getting a hide but

You are wrong and so was the dnc

[W_HAMILTON]

71. If you can't defend Michael Moore's indefensible actions...

...without getting a hide by (presumably) personally attacking me, an actual supportive Democrat that doesn't shit on our candidates and then stupidly wonder why other voters don't turn out to vote for them, that says all anyone needs to know here.

And, based on the conversation we've had here, exactly what was the DNC wrong about? The only time I brought up the DNC was when I said Russian criminals hacked them and laundered their hacked information through Julian Assange -- are you claiming the DNC was """wrong""" about that?

[Just A Box Of Rain]

68. He produces toxic populist propaganda

that does great darm to Democrats, while enriching himself.

I despise him.

[anamnua]

75. OK Moore canvassed for Nader.

Last edited Thu Jun 16, 2022, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)

That was then. This is now. I mean Hillary canvassed for Goldwater!

[Just A Box Of Rain]

76. He was 46 years old.