Do bald face liars actually believe their lies? I have only familial experience with the sensation.

[NNadir]

Bill Barr, trying to distance himself from his own criminality, and perhaps trying to go "easy" on the person whose corruption he served, Trump, speculated that perhaps Trump believed his own lies.

I don't think Trump is a very good liar; he really doesn't seem bright enough to do it.

I have a brother who is an expert liar, the absolute best, as well as a world class grifter. I haven't spoken to him in close to twenty years, and probably never will speak to him again.

I told my sons, that if somehow he finds out that I've died, and shows up at the funeral and introduces himself, they will think he is one of the coolest people they have ever met. They will find him to be witty, extremely intelligent, interesting, dynamic, incredibly funny and they'll be very caught up with him. I told him that before the evening is over, he will find a way to steal their underwear and then sell it back to them at a high price, whereupon they will feel like they got a bargain.

I tried to live up to my father, who I admired for all the times he forgave his brother, my uncle. I forgave my brother oodles of times, but when he was charming members of my extended family out of their money, this after I could no longer be rolled, I tried to warn them, but they told me I was being harsh, until in the end, they got rolled and understood.

Here's the thing. I, and other people, often wondered if my brother believed his own lies, he was so damned convincing and a master of the set up. On reflection however, the lies he seemed to believe always accrued to his benefit, and to the loss of everyone surrounding him.

A good liar is only a good liar if he can convince others that he believes his own lies.

Trump is a simpleton and couldn't hold a candle to my brother. (I really don't understand how Trump's grift works; it seems so transparent.) But let's be sure, that he fully understands he is lying, just as my brother did.

You have to lie to run a successful fraud; my brother's run many, but make no mistake. They always know they are lying; they just lack the ethics to care.

For what it's worth, that's my opinion, based on some close up experience.

[wyn borkins]

1. Family

Thank you for sharing this (your) very personal story.

I have no words...

[MerryBlooms]

2. Trump is not a simpleton. He manages 100's of millions

Of simpletons to to follow him and donate money to him. Trump and his inner minions are well seasoned con artists. Private cons in the family, then branching out to political cons. Non are stupid, I wish people would stop saying that. You don't make hundreds of millions of dollars being stupid. You also don't stack the Supreme Court with traitors, if you're stupid. Conniving lowlife traitorous pieces of shit, Yep. There are some medicore minds who were highly educated in skirting our Constitution, vague laws and Senate rules. Non of these traitorous players are stupid. Democrats need to stop with that ridiculous narrative. I guess it makes some feel better about being asleep at the wheel?

[NNadir]

3. I disagree.

He's more like an idiot savant who rather than displaying mathematical ability, shows grifting ability.

He didn't stack the court. He never gave a shit about the court. McConnell did.

His vocabulary is weak; his interest in nuance or complex subjects is nil; his only book is ghost written and it's not clear that he's ever read any book other than Mein Kampf.

He lacks intellect.

[MerryBlooms]

4. I respect what you're saying, I don't want to let him off the hook.

[yardwork]

15. I agree with you.

Thank you for this honest and illuminating post.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

5. Amazing story.

Thank you for sharing.

I think that people like that, your brother and Donald Trump, really do believe their lies. To put it another way, they believe whatever they are saying at the time they are saying it.

Do keep on warning your sons about your brother so that they can protect themselves against him.

[NNadir]

11. Thanks. I don't worry about my sons getting rolled by him. I made sure they know who he is. n/t.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

14. Oh, good.

I'm glad to see that.

[JanMichael]

6. Yes I think they do. It is an act of "Bad Faith".

I think its a internal deception but based on knowing the truth then suffocating it. So they did or do know but have masked it over. I usually screw up Sartre's idea of Bad Faith but try anyway. Am I lying to myself that I even understand a 10th of Being and Nothingness? I don't know. Maybe?

[Beakybird]

7. I'd love to hear more specifics about your brother's machinations.

Mostly for my own titillatiion. Very fascinating.

[NNadir]

10. Oh, he's fascinating alright.

A long time ago, during one of my last episodes in forgiveness when I was still in contact with him, one of my aunt's died, and my surviving aunts, some uncles, and some cousins were all sitting around in a restaurant for a meal after the funeral.

His name came up and everybody had a story, wild stuff, with a lot of laughter and joking and shaking of heads about all of the stuff he did, much of it quite remarkable. (He's very talented, highly skilled with his hands, and learns how to start entirely new careers very quickly.)

At one point, there was so much genuine enthusiasm about the stories being told that I said to one of my aunts, "I know where he is if you want to reach him."

My aunt sat up in her chair, got very serious, gave me a dead eyed glare and said, "Don't you ever tell him where I live!"

Of course, I didn't.

[localroger]

8. The most successful liars have to master doublethink

They do know that the things they are saying are not true. They have to be able to maneuver in the world of true things after all in order to realize the intent of their system of lies. But they also, as if in a separate personality, believe their lies. When they gladhand you and talk about the stock options and whatever they are absolutely sincere, not thinking at all about those other things which are compartamentalized. They know the truth when they need to, and they conveniently do not think of it when they are doing persuasion and have to believe the false reality they are weaving. As Orwell wrote, they manage to believe two things at the same time, one true and one not, and believing the one that is most convenient according to circumstance.

[Mister Ed]

17. I think that's exactly it. n/t

[Pobeka]

9. Well said. Completely agree.

Sorry you lost a brother because of that.

My father lost a brother for apparently much the same reason.

We were on the lookout for this brother to show up at my father's funeral and start with the grift, but fortunately he did not show.

[NNadir]

13. I can't imagine that he'd know I died, although I suppose it could happen.

That you were ready for it, although it didn't happen, gives me confidence.

[ReluctanceTango]

12. I don't know if they believe their lies

From my experience with a father and brother who both qualify as malignant narcissists, and my garden variety narcissist mother, it's not about belief/disbelief. Their brains aren't wired like the rest of us, so I don't think that plays a role for them.

Lies are tools for them, nothing more. Their goal in every discussion is to get what they want: Admiration, beating you in an argument, weaseling out of taking responsibility for their faults/wrongdoing, shifting blame onto YOU for their mistakes, getting something from you, or even getting you to do something the way they want. No matter what it takes to get any of that, they will say it or do it. Even if it's a bald-faced lie--and they know you know it's a bald-faced lie, they'll still say it because what they want right now is all that matters to them--the only thing that matters.

It sounds crazy to normal people, but this is how they operate. They think it's normal and okay to lie to get what they want.

I unfortunately had to live with this crap for too much of my life.

[captain queeg]

16. For someone to have morals. Differentiate between right and wrong

In reference to others. Since trump only
Weighs thing as to how it affects him he lacks the ability even see things as lies. If it’s good for him is all that matters.

[ReluctanceTango]

18. Malignant narcissists like him are always amoral.

They are the ultimate "live in the now" people who care only if they benefit from something, somehow, in the here and now. Consequences or how other people are affected? They do not care. They're incapable of it. Everything is about them.

Sometimes, I think it takes living with a malignant narcissist to understand how destructive they are. Until they've experienced one of them, up close and personal, those from "normal" homes can't grasp how horrible the experience is. Millions of Americans who had never dealt with people like this got a crash course about it with TDFG.

People who have the scars from hard experience? We recognized what that monster was, right off.

[NCLefty]

19. Trump knows some of his lies are lies, but he always errs on saying what he would LIKE truth to be.

He knows if he repeats the same thing over and over, that some people will fall for them. It's a branding exercise, and he probably learned it back in business school.

[LizBeth]

20. I have a brother like that too. I too cut him off about two decades ago. I asked

in one conversation why he lied. I always knew the lie and blew my mind so many believed him. I told him when it is obvious he is lying, he is called out the lie, why keep lying. He told me he simply did not want to hear it from another so stick to the lie and never have to own it.

I used to say, he would take the shirt off my back to give to anyone in need or want.