Why can't the War Powers include manufacturing affordable electric cars?

[SleeplessinSoCal]

Russia is gaining in Ukraine, and we don't want a hot war with Putin. But why can't war powers help dissuade us from war? We manufactured tons of military equipment in times of war. Let's push an act to force car companies to help us avoid the fallout from Putin's aggression. Why should he and the fossil fuel industry benefit? It's never our turn.

Biden could and should do something to force the production of affordable alternatives to those gouging us for monetary and political gain.

[Tetrachloride]

1. Japan has low horsepower cars called K cars

which are not certified for higher speeds.

it would seem to me that these would take the wind out of Tesla. inexpensive and sufficient for daily excursions

if a design was found to be viable, i could see a Defense authorization

[SleeplessinSoCal]

3. I'm also trying to find a way for Biden to be effective

Last edited Wed Jun 15, 2022, 03:23 AM - Edit history (1)

In promoting clean energy at the time of high inflation AND address fallout from Climate Change. It's a way to push for more progressives come November to help push the agenda through. Make

[thatdemguy]

8. And they would never meet the requirements to be sold here.

Crash standards and safety features alone would kill them. The smart car in Europe got close to 50 mpg, they had to add 800 lbs to it to pass our crash standards. Now it gets 30mpg, and is too small for more than 2. My suby gets 35 on the highway and seats 4.

[MichMan]

17. Why not require all drivers wear crash helmets?

Would prevent a lot of head injuries

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

2. Affordable to me means less than 20k.

Last edited Tue Jun 14, 2022, 11:18 PM - Edit history (1)

And they need to go more than 200 or 300 miles before needing a several hour recharging.

My current vehicle, a 2017 Honda Fit goes about 300 miles and then takes maybe five minutes for refueling. That makes a 700 mile road trip practical.

And do NOT tell me I should have an electric vehicle for around town, and a gas one for the long drives. NO! I am NOT going to have two cars when one is all I need, thank you very much.

[Effete Snob]

6. I rent cars for long trips

I have a small car that is not practical for long trips with family.

I use the money I save to rent a big ass luxury SUV when I need to take lots of folks a long way.

Cheaper overall.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

7. Alas rental cars in this country are all automatic transmissions.

I drive a stick. I HATE automatics and basically refuse to drive one. Oh, and I'm 73 years old, and long ago decided that when I can no longer drive a stick, that will be a clear sign it's time to stop driving.

You may well have some other benchmark.

And I would NEVER rent a big ass luxury SUV, but then again I don't ever need to take lots of folks a long way.

I really do lead a very simple life.

I am actually looking forward to not driving somewhere in the future. I hope to move to a city with better public transportation, or into an independent/assisted living place that will drive me places.

About 15 years ago, when I was relocating after a divorce, I gave serious thought to the DC area. I had lived there some years before, knew my way around, knew I could get work and find a decent place to live. Had I moved there, I would absolutely have given up owning a car, because I could take public transportation most of the time, and rent a car if need be. For various reasons I didn't move there and I'm still driving.

[MichMan]

18. Why would a rental company have manual transmission cars that few could drive?

Whereas anyone can drive an automatic.

I can already see this happening.

Rental agent : "All we have left is manual transmission cars"

Customer: "Well, I dont know how to drive one, but I guess I can figure it out"

Customer the next day. " I need another car. The clutch just stopped working for no reason. Why did you rent me this piece of junk?"

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

32. In Europe the vast majority of rental cars

are manual transmissions. That says a lot.

What I like about driving a standard transmission is that I have a LOT more control, especially in any kind of iffy conditions.

They are not hard to drive, although from what I've been told, most American cars with standard transmissions have very stiff clutches. Why? I've only ever driven Volkswagen Beetles, Subaru Outbacks, Honda Civics and now a Fit. None of those clutches were stiff or difficult in any way.

I actually can understand why someone would prefer an automatic, or be in some way unable to drive a stick. But knowing how to drive a standard transmission really ought to be one of those things everyone learns.

[Zeitghost]

30. Nice to meet a fellow driver who wants to drive a manual.

While I will rent or borrow a car with an auto if needed, I refuse to buy or daily drive one. Not only for the driving experience, but also for the durability and reliability, especially with the new CVTs in new cars.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

33. Durability and reliability.

That's huge.

Oh, and the very first time I tried driving an automatic, I was HORRIFIED that as soon as I took my foot off the brake it started moving. It moved by default. I didn't have to do anything to make it move. That's insane.

My older son, when he finally was willing to learn to drive, simply could not learn on the stick. He's high-functioning autistic, Asperger's, and there were simply too many things to pay attention to for him to get it. So I helped him acquire a perfectly nice automatic transmission car, and since he now only had to pay attention to one thing at a time, he learned to drive. Although to be honest, he wasn't a very good driver. Several months after he was driving he came to me and asked if he could try driving my car again. Of course I said yes, and he nailed it immediately. Because now that he'd learned the other basics, he could concentrate on the shifting thing. For the next two years he drove my car any time I'd let him. Then he asked me if I'd help him purchase a standard transmission car. So I did. I'd already noticed that he was a vastly better driving in the standard than in the automatic. Nice.

So again, I understand there are many reasons for a person to prefer, or perhaps require, an automatic. But I'll personally stick with my little stick shift car.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

9. if you can afford the gas, no problem.

But to many the cost is prohibitive. Better to pay installments and have something of value in the end, rather than spent gas fumes.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

13. I can afford the gas.

What I cannot afford is the insane price for an electric vehicle. Which is generally vastly more than many years of gas, even with rising gas prices.

Let me put it this way. I have always paid cash for my cars, after my very first one. Not having a car payment has been very freeing.

A personal story here. I was an airline ticket agent in the 1970s, and made huge use of the travel benefits we got. Free, or very, very low cost tickets and we mostly flew in first class. Our pay scales were open knowledge. If you knew how long someone had worked for a particular airline, you knew how much money they made. Of course working afternoon shift paid more, as did working overtime or holidays or on Sunday. More than once in that time period a fellow employee would ask me, in tones of great puzzlement (remember, they knew how much I earned) "How can you afford to travel so much?" I invariably responded, "I don't own a car."

I have always driven very fuel efficient cars. My first two were VW Beetles. My current car is a Honda Fit (remember, no car payment as I always pay cash) which gets 35-42 mpg depending on road conditions. On a recent trip to Kansas City I was getting 42 mpg. Hardly a record, but not bad.

So, no thank you to installments.

[Celerity]

12. your charging times are out of date

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

14. Is that the charging time per those units of miles?

So the best one, would give you 200 miles in 10 minutes. What is the maximum miles it can charge to?

Meanwhile, my Honda Fit fills up with gas in about three minutes, and I'm good for another 300 miles.

When electric cars charge as quickly as gas cars fill up, I'll get one. Unless it's the kind of insane cost that so many electric cars are right now, and then I'll pass.

[MissB]

16. Level one chargers are fast

We’ve only used them during trips that take us beyond the range of the car, which so far is rare for us.

There is a $7500 federal incentive (you have to have at least $7500 in federal tax liability for the year you buy one) and many states have incentives too. Our state offers $2500 plus more if you have a certain level of income.

My level 2 charger was free with my car. I could’ve gotten much of the cost of installation defrayed too.

I’d love to see rest areas install level one chargers. Pull in, use the facility, stretch your legs and get a charge all at once.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

25. My income is so low I pay almost no federal taxes.

Lucky me. Now, if they'd turn around and give me $7500 cash, that would be an incentive.

The vast majority of electric cars are far outside my financial means.

You still didn't tell me just how long those chargers take. Ten minutes? An hour?

[Celerity]

21. 200 miles is not the max charge for the Lucid Air, it has up to a 520 mile range

Many many options (other manufacturers) out there with 200 + mile plus ranges, and that will only greatly improve as tech and scales of economy truly kick in over the next 5 to 10 years or so.


you said

Unless it's the kind of insane cost that so many electric cars are right now, and then I'll pass.

Many too often use the higher end Teslas, Porsches, etc etc as a price point for an EV.

The average US price for a regular ICE (petrol) new car was around $45K in May, 2022.

The 10 cheapest electric cars you can buy in 2022 from the Nissan Leaf to Ford F-150 Lightning

You don't need to spend a fortune to make the switch to an electric vehicle.
The cheapest electric cars you can buy include the Ford F-150 Lightning, Chevy Bolt EV, and Kia EV6.
The cheapest model starts at $19,900, after factoring in the federal tax credit for EV purchases.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cheapest-electric-car-affordable-kia-ford-chevy-hyundai-nissan-2022-6

After the already existing rebates, you can get an extended range (310 miles) 2022 Kia EV6 Wind RWD for around $39,500 (base model with 232 mile range is $33,400 after the rebate)

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

26. $45k is around twice as much as I've ever paid for a car.

And I still want to know how long it takes to recharge after 400 plus miles.

And I have so little income that the tax incentive is meaningless to me.

[hardluck]

31. For the EV6

My total range is roughly 274 miles which is comparable to my 94 Land Cruiser (which gets somewhere between 10-13 mpg).

On a fast DC charger (350 kw/h) it will charge from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes. Last weekend I stopped at a Target during a road trip to get some snacks. In the 17 minutes I was in there, it charged from about 30% to 85% using a 150 kw/h fast DC Charger.

Using a level 2 charger it will take about 4-7 hours to charge. Fine for at work or overnight at home.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

36. So on my road trips to Kansas City

or Denver or Tucson the fast charger will still take six times as long as getting gas.

When I'm on a road trip I stop to get gas, pee, sometimes buy a soft drink. I spend almost no time not driving.

And again, the cost of gas is vastly less than tens of thousands of dollars more to buy an electric car.

In 2020 I put a small notebook in my car and started keeping track of what I was paying for gas. In 2020 it came out to a total of $129.78. In 2021 it came to $325.35, not only from rising gas prices, but because I'd resumed some of my longer trip. So far this year I've paid $375.22 for gas. My Fit gets 35-50 mpg, and even though it has an absurdly small gas tank (fewer than ten gallons, really) I usually go more than 300 miles on one tank of gas. Noticeably better than your Land Cruiser, which clearly has a vastly larger gas tank.

So if I'm going to pay $40k for an electric car (and many are much more expensive than that), which is nearly double what I've ever paid for a car, how long would I have to drive it to save $20k in gas. Decades.

Oh, and it's not as though the charging of the battery is totally free. As well as it should not be.

[hardluck]

39. You sound like you are making the rational decision

It doesn’t sound like the economics work in your favor for getting a EV.

My car is mostly for commuting, hockey, etc. I have other cars for long trips.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

40. Exactly.

Thank you for noticing that I'm making a rational decision for me.

I am also only willing to own one car. So I need one that is economical for long trips as well as for the many other short, around town drives I make. I also live alone. No children or grandchildren to ferry around, which can make a huge difference.

We all lead somewhat different lives, and we all need to keep that in mind. I try to, but sometimes I fail.

[hardluck]

29. I just got the KIA EV6 last week

Absolutely love it.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

4. Microchips are already on short supply

And that's for normal production vehicles. Where are manufacturers going to source them for a bunch of EV's? Also, many parts of the US received warnings of rolling blackouts this summer due to extreme weather and inadequate electric generation capacity. We need to fix our grid before a huge amount of EVs hit the roads. They are useless without power to charge them with.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

10. what if we got a plant or two making microchips?

Why can't we compete?

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

24. 2 plants are being built in Ohio

They will be making the wafer for the chips. Construction starts this year and it won't be finished and making anything till 2025. Time and cost is the main hurdle for domestic production. These 2 plants are going to cost at least 20 billion to build. The manufacturing process is extremely complex and requires specialized and expensive equipment and facilities to make the chips. And as with nearly everything here, labor costs are considerably higher than overseas.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

38. $20 billion is a small fraction of Musk's worth.

Or is it? How much of any cost is based on faulty estimations? No doubt there is a financial term for speculating on cost.

[Igel]

34. Quick answer?

Because we'd rather pay rather less for a part made in Taiwan (or elsewhere) than one made in the US.

And having changed our minds--at least some of us--it takes time to build a chip manufacturing plant.

So next time you see two options at the store, pretty much equivalent, and buy the cheaper one made out-of-USA instead the made-in-USA one, that's the answer to your question.

Example?

A few years back my food processor died. (Thanks, ex-wife.)

I bought a new one. Found *none* that were tolerably not-bad were made in the US. Paid $60 more for one made in France and not in China. (Even if I rather preferred Chinese-made ones ... to this day.) Decided not helping racist Chinese genocide and Eastern imperialism was entirely worth a 30% price hike. Not all would have been able to make the same choice. Would have preferred a US-made one. But, you know ...

Purchasing parity power.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

11. There are countless prototypes out there.

Obama kickstarted solar panel production. Biden needs to kickstart green vehicles of all sorts. Electric probably should be the default.

[MichMan]

15. They should make EV cars selling for under $15k that meet all safety standards with union labor

Our future depends on it.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

20. Seems like a no brainer.

If we all unite behind a cause like this, we will be doing a great service to humanity.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

37. Boy, wouldn't that be nice.

That's the price point I'm at.

I'm reminded of when Henry Ford started paying his assembly line workers five dollars a day for an 8 hour workday, double what anyone else was paying. The other auto manufacturers were outraged. But Ford pointed out that he wanted his workers to be able to afford the cars they were building.

[mathematic]

19. Daily reminder that centrally planned economies lead to poverty nt

[Ron Green]

22. VMT is the problem. That stands for "Vehicle Miles Traveled."

Americans’ demand for comfort and convenience in our transportation, at an impossibly low price, has brought us the world we know - with the true costs offloaded on to poor people here and around the world, as well as onto our only home the earth itself.

I’m disappointed at DUers having so bought in to this car-based world that any thread attempting to examine it fills up with personal expectations of further VMT.

[hunter]

23. You could take the batteries from one all-electric car and make 10 plug-in hybrids.

Which cars will save more gasoline overall -- one 400 mile Tesla, or ten affordable plug-in hybrids that go 40 miles on a charge?

But neither option is going to "save the world." The earth can't sustain a car for every adult human when our population is 8 billion or more.

What we really need to do is restructure our cities such that most people can't be bothered to own a car.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

28. Absolutely. it's having government act for the benefit of people when the wealthy do nothing but hur

Elon Musk could easily do this. He has more than enough money and the manufacturing capability. It would add thousands of jobs and help keep the fossil fuel industry from gouging. But he made a complete 180° turn away from being a good deed doer. And wint even vote for those who would do what he professed to champion.

[Igel]

35. Unless you run a GULag.

Or Uighur re-education camp.

It's a minor correction.