Pope Francis says traditionalist Catholics are 'gagging' the reforms of Vatican II

[brooklynite]

America: The Jesuit Review

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis has complained that traditionalist Catholics, particularly in the United States, are “gagging” the church’s modernizing reforms and insisted that there was no turning back.

Francis told a gathering of Jesuit editors in comments published Tuesday that he was convinced that some Catholics simply have never accepted the Second Vatican Council, the meetings of the 1960s that led to Mass being celebrated in the vernacular rather than Latin and revolutionized the church’s relations with people of other faiths, among other things.

“The number of groups of ‘restorers’—for example, in the United States there are many—is significant,” Francis told the editors, according to excerpts published by the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica.

“Restorationism has come to gag the council.”

“Restorationism has come to gag the council,” he said, adding that he knew some priests for whom the 16th century Council of Trent was more memorable than the 20th century Vatican II.

[Hortensis]

1. Of course. Reactionary hard-conservative Catholics are a big part

of what's happening politically, an example of the reason the arc of the moral universe is so long.

Nancy Pelosi grew up around the time of Vatican II, and of course the wave of liberalism it reflected and further enabled was part of the reason she was able to go on to become the most powerful woman in U.S. history. With the greatest record of liberal, progressive achievement.

[OnDoutside]

2. Unfortunately, particularly with all the scandals of the last 30 years

A lot of the moderates left the church or no longer engaged, leaving the hard line nutjobs in positions of power. It's happened in the US, Ireland etc but the amount of money backing US RWNJ Catholic groups should be a serious concern. I know that they poured money into Ireland to fight against the Marriage Equality and Abortion referendums, and haven't stopped.

[Hortensis]

5. SCOTUS. If you count Gorsuch, 6 out of 9 (!), 5 of them hard conservative.

SERIOUS concern.

[OnDoutside]

6. Yes, but it's the money behind them, the Federalist Society and there are plenty of ultra

conservative Catholic billionaires/families funding not just them but anti abortion/ anti lgbtq rights groups.

[Hortensis]

9. Absolutely. But now far-right religious/political-agent majority also.

Grave concern. Above-average setback along the arc for the U.S.

[keep_left]

11. It's not just passive (moderates getting fed up and leaving), it's active...

...(billionaire radtrad funders). They have created an entire hermetically-sealed religious and ideological ecosystem parallel to what you see in the Protestant fundamentalist world. This includes "think" tanks like the Ethics and Public Policy Center, which is an Opus Dei front. Reactionary Catholics have essentially plagiarized the "think" tank and institutional culture that Paul Krugman calls "wingnut welfare". It doesn't yet have the resources of the secular wingnut welfare system (funded by "defense" contractors et al.). But Catholic wingnut welfare is already quite effective at providing a jobs program for the otherwise unemployable failsons and daughters of the radtrads that fund this system. At radtrad broadcasters like EWTN, coverage of the Catholic wingnut welfare system takes a disproportionate share of their programming each day.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216786607#post21
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016323885#post12
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216734161

[EYESORE 9001]

3. Why are they even Roman Catholic?

If you’re gonna dispute papal authority, go form your own sect. That’s kinda the point: pope calls the shots, good Catholics obey.

[EndlessWire]

4. I am not Catholic

but the article does mention "revolutionized the church's relations with people of other faiths, among other things." And, typically as happens, he blames the US for whatever pissified complaint he has about the way his fellow Catholics implement the church's rule.

It seems to me that lately the Pope's attitude has shifted to pro Russian dogma. Any positive reflections I ever had have evaporated into the sunset after Francis mused that perhaps the war was Ukraine's fault, with extension to the US as provocateurs.

I don't know about you, and because I am not Catholic, perhaps I just don't get it, but I don't think that Francis is much of a church leader lately. He seems to be consolidating the forces here, but since Catholics don't fight in wars (well, sure they do, and they also have the tradition of the Vatican guard), I can't see what he's up to, except sucking up to someone, somewhere, who may be running the show. He certainly isn't preaching Jesus here.

That's part of the reason I don't trust organized religion. Nothing, not even robes no matter how immaculate they are kept, should stand between you and your concept of G-d. Just you and your G-d, and whatever it takes to do the right thing, and make yourself a better person.

We need to take care of one another. Could Francis not have called Russia out to stop their war of aggression, instead of all this folderol of whose fault it is, anyway? He mentions modern reforms which US Catholics are apparently fighting, which I presume includes attitudes about sex, same sex, and in betweens and marriage, which are under attack right now in the US and basically all over. So, in that sense, perhaps it isn't all backstepping, but Francis is basically disappointing right now. And, I suppose it is a great effort to unify his church; I am just always disappointed to see the lack of basic Christian values being preached. Vatican II reforms should include basic Jesus concepts along with the broader concepts of modern societal acceptance and understanding.

And, I am tired as hell of always getting blamed for everything under the sun that is wrong with the world. Even our own people do it, and it is never a complete failure, but interactions of the world as it happens. So, I would like to see how these comments fight fascism in today's world, because apparently the Vatican likes to make political comments as much as it likes to run the spiritual world.

[Haggard Celine]

7. Yes, it's funny I read.here on DU just the other day

that a large majority of lay Catholics want abortion to be legal and are in favor of keeping Roe v. Wade. But, of course, they aren't the Catholics with all of the power. The American bishops have different attitudes, as do the people on the SCOTUS and the people in Opus Dei and the Federalist Society, which all overlap. I don't know, maybe the Pope was stirring up something between American Catholics. Sometimes it's hard to tell what the Pope is doing when he makes a statement. His statements can be taken so many ways.

[keep_left]

8. The two biggest problems are (1) the billionaire Catholic radtrad funders...

...like Tom Monaghan and (2) the numerous retrograde bishops and other Church officials who were installed during the long reign of John Paul II. A third problem which flows from the first two is the rise of the broadcasting and publishing empires made possible by this. The billionaires fund the radtrad causes, especially broadcasters like EWTN and (Ir)-Relevant Radio, and then reactionary priests and bishops go on the air and become big "stars". This amplifies their power, so it continues even though it repeatedly leads to scandals (especially at EWTN).

Another problem is the rise of various institutions of "higher education" expressly created by radtrads to silo off their kids from the modern world. This is a lesser problem right now than the radtrad mass media, but these institutions are growing in number.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216786607#post21

[LiberalFighter]

10. The easy solution defrock/defick the USA priests/ bishops/ cardinals

[lapucelle]

12. "Pope Francis is remaking the College of Cardinals--and setting the stage for the eventual election

of his successor"

With the appointment of 16 new cardinal electors, Pope Francis continues remaking the College of Cardinals with an emphasis on the person rather than the location of the bishop. Nowhere has that emphasis been more evident than in the United States, where he chose to elevate Bishop Robert McElroy of San Diego, while once again skipping over more senior bishops in traditionally cardinatial cities such as Los Angeles and Philadelphia.

He has also made the electors less Italian and less Eastern European but more Asian and African than they were when he was elected in 2013.

snip================================================================

With the appointment of these cardinals, Francis is setting the stage for the election of his successor.

San Diego has never had a cardinal, whereas Los Angeles (the largest archdiocese in the country) and Philadelphia (one of the oldest) would have been considered cardinatial sees in the past. McElroy is a strong supporter of Francis and his concern for the environment, immigrants and the poor. He has not favored withholding Communion from abortion-rights politicians.

snip==================================================================

Each pope puts his own stamp on the College of Cardinals, looking for prelates who support his views on where the church should go. Francis has now appointed 63% of the cardinal electors; 29% were appointed by Benedict and 8% by John Paul.

The odds are now in favor of having another pope who will continue Francis’ policies, but you never know how cardinals will vote once they enter a conclave.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/05/31/pope-francis-cardinals-election-243083