Car and Driver: The danger of keyless ignitions

[pnwmom]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28222496/new-york-times-auto-shutoff-cars/

Here's What the New York Times Didn't Say about the Danger of Keyless-Ignition Systems

The technology is convenient (if sometimes annoying), but it means drivers need to be more attentive to whether their engines are running.

A New York Times report tells the story of a couple who died of carbon-monoxide poisoning after their 2017 Toyota Avalon, equipped with a push-button keyless ignition, was mistakenly left running inside their garage.
The story outlines the problem of modern keyless-ignition systems that make it more difficult to be certain whether a car's engine is running.

NHTSA and SAE International have both recommended that warning systems be added to push-button ignition systems, but more driver attentiveness is a powerful remedy, too.

Are all the electronics in your car a good thing? When it comes to safety features such as anti-lock brakes and stability-control systems, the answer is yes. Convenience features like touchscreens, however, can add distraction and, at worst, can be dangerous. It's difficult to know where to draw the line, but the New York Times suggests in a recent story that keyless-ignition systems pose an overlooked risk because sometimes, the driver fails to switch the car off or doesn't realize it's still running. It's a follow-up to a larger investigation citing the dangers that can happen when you don't have to physically turn off a key to be sure your car is shut down.

[doc03]

1. A couple that lived near me were found dead in

bed. No one had seen them for several days, a family member discoverd them. The cause of death was CO
their car was found with the gas tank empty. They either pulled it in the garage and left the engine running or accidently started it.

[CrackityJones75]

3. A friend of mine

A friend of mine has a routine set up through his smart home system where it starts his car but it won’t do it unless hos garage door is open. I have always thought it would be good to have garage door openers sense CO and open if it is detected.

[Tommy Carcetti]

14. Neighbors down the street from my in-laws accidentally left their keyless car on.

Their daughter had a friend over for a sleepover, and both the daughter and friend ended up dying from the carbon monoxide.

[moonscape]

29. Horrible. I thought that only happened

with pre-catalytic convertible cars, or at least was very difficult.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Only On The Surface

Converters are very efficient at breaking down the nitrogen oxides entering it from the exhaust.
The efficiency of oxidizing CO to CO2 is much less efficient, and there is a lot more CO than NOx present.
The carbon monoxide is reduced but not close to zero at the outlet.

[CrackityJones75]

2. I am all for the warning systems but

I know I had a hell of a time converting from roll up windows to push button windows…. /sarcasm


And yes I believe in my wifes car it dies beep a warning if you get out of the car with the engine on.

[róisín_dubh]

8. Mine does if I leave it running and take the keys out.

Also I can't lock the doors. Mind you, I don't park in a garage, but on a street, so locking is essential. But even so, I'd lock the doors in a garage, which is impossible if the engine is running and the keys are outside the car.

[CrackityJones75]

11. Yep.

The thing is some of these engines are so quiet these days (especially new) that I could see it happening if there is no door ajar beeping - which I thought all cars had if the engine was running or ignition was in the on position? I suppose with a push button there is no on position but I would think that the car running would produce a door ajar warning?

[ratchiweenie]

39. I guess new cars can be started with the remote from inside the house. Nice if it's snowing out

and you want to warm the car and defrost the windows before you go get in your car. I guess it's possible a cat or a kid or someone could push the start button and you would be unaware of it?

[ReluctanceTango]

92. Also nice when it's 105

And your car is parked outdoors. Start it early enough, and it will be cooled off inside when you get in at last.

I hate getting in a car so hot that you can’t touch the steering wheel without worrying about getting second degree burns.

[MineralMan]

4. That's a very good point.

I don't really like automation that helps people forget how their vehicle operates. We need to understand more about our cars, not less.

For example, many cars now automatically stop the engine when you stop at a traffic signal. Then, when you take your foot off the brake, the engine restarts. Most of the time, anyhow.

You can see it in action at any traffic signal. That feature slows down traffic, often enough for the light to change before everyone gets through the intersection.

I don't like the feature, and disable it every time I start my car. Sadly, there is no way to set a default that disables it automatically. We are losing control of our vehicles, one feature at a time.

[Tommy Carcetti]

7. I disable the autostop every time I get in as well.

It feels unsettling, like my car is breaking down. Only time I leave it on is for long traffic jams.

[MineralMan]

15. I know why they added it.

It improves the city driving gas mileage in the testing that is done. In theory, it's a good idea, but in practice, it puts an extra load on the starter and battery. Maybe not much, but extra. Like you, I also find it unnerving to have the engine shut down. I do sometimes forget to push the button that disables it, but the first time it turns off the engine, I remember and disable it. I notice the difference in the time it takes for traffic to get going again at traffic signals, too. It's a real thing.

Neither of my cars, a 2020 and a 2021 model, has the other "helpful" features like lane monitoring and side traffic alerts. I'm not willing to spend extra for those "nanny" features. I don't need help with steering and am very careful to check mirrors before changing lanes. It seems to me that many of those features work to make people less attentive, as they grow to trust the car to keep them out of trouble, rather than their driving skills.

[Tommy Carcetti]

19. My wife's car has lane monitoring and side traffic alerts.

The side traffic alert is useful, I'll give it that. Wish my car had that.

The lane monitoring is more or less pointless. A slight deviation and I'll feel a bit of a pull but honestly I'm never in danger of leaving my lane at any time.

My car (Subaru) does have auto obstacle safety braking. If I come up too fast on a slow or stopped vehicle, it will immediately alert me and if need be, automatically engage the brakes. It does scare the shit out of me on the rare occasions where it's engaged. I suppose it's a helpful feature, I guess.

[MineralMan]

23. I rented a car once that had the side traffic alert.

It was way too sensitive. I picked up the car at the LAX airport and immediately got on I-405. The alert came on hundreds of times in the rush-hour traffic. I finally took an exit and looked up how to disable it in the owner's manual in the glove box.

On interstates I'm familiar with, I get into whatever lane that will allow me to proceed to my destination without changing lanes again. Even in rush hour traffic, that strategy gets you where you are going in the same amount of time, and you never have to worry about traffic in adjacent lanes. I also always leave a gap between my vehicle and the one ahead of me, to let people change safely into the lane I'm in. Always.

[Tommy Carcetti]

25. In my wife's car the side traffic alert only beeps if the turn signal is on.

I think if the turn signal isn't on there's a small light indicator that still lights up without a beep if there's side traffic, but that's not too obtrusive.

[MineralMan]

27. That makes sense, except that more and more people

no longer use turn signals at all. Here in Minnesota, at least 50% of drivers don't bother to signal. Of course, a lot of drivers think the orange traffic signal means "Floor it! You only have 10 seconds after the light turns red to get though the intersection!" Running red lights here appears to be mandatory.

[Jedi Guy]

107. "I also always leave a gap between my vehicle and the one ahead of me..."

This is the lost and esoteric art of "defensive driving." My dad taught me this ancient creed in the long-ago days of the mid-90s and instructed me to always, when possible, maintain a "bubble" of space around one's vehicle. The bubble allows you time and room to react and (hopefully) avoid a collision.

Alas, it truly does seem to be a lost skill, given how I see people riding bumpers, swerving wildly between lanes if they think it'll get them to their destination .5 seconds faster, and other vehicular shenanigans. And then, of course, when the inevitable happens, they raise their hands to the sky and wail, "But I'm a good driver, how could this happen to meeeeee?!"

My biggest pet peeve about Ontario drivers, though, is twofold. One, highway drivers traveling in the right lane leave zero room for traffic to merge onto the highway, so naturally everyone winds up jamming on their brakes when the people merging have no choice but to basically force their way in. Two, people merging have this weird idea that the drivers already on the highway are supposed to increase/decrease speed to let them merge, when instead the driver merging is supposed to match highway speed and then merge safely.

So you end up with a double whammy of stupidity that constantly brings highway traffic to a screeching halt. And then there are Toronto drivers... anyone who thinks all Canadians are super polite should go for a little pleasure drive on the 401. That'll open some eyes real quick.

/rant

[MineralMan]

108. Learned that from my Dad in 1962.

I believe that his lessons were why I have never had a traffic accident or a ticket for a moving violation in 60 years of driving.

[Jedi Guy]

117. Sounds like your dad did right by you.

I've been in a few collisions but only one of those was my fault, and it's nearly 30 years behind me. About the same for my last speeding ticket, too.

Continue to drive safely, MM.

[MineralMan]

118. He did, and I will.

[helpisontheway]

111. I have a Subie too. I have never had the brakes engage like that. My hubby has and

it scared him too.

[Captain Zero]

58. I thought delays was waiting on red light runners

Or checking for people about to run a red light.

But maybe this is it? Cars shutting down, driver glancing at phone, light changes and they have to restart their cars?

JHC.

[ShazzieB]

106. Probably some of all of the above.

The difference is that there is now a new wild card in the pack (cars shutting down and starting up again) to go with the cards that were already in the pack.

I actually did not know about this feature until now. I can never afford to buy a new car, so I never have The. Very. Latest. Features. (Right now, I'm driving a 2006 Honda Civic.) I had to rent a car once last winter while mine was in the shop. It was my first time driving a car with one of those backup cameras (or whatever you call them), and I was AMAZED at how much more comfortable I was backing out of parking spaces. I'd buy a new car tomorrow if I could afford it, just to get that feature.

That engine on/off feature sounds obnoxious, though, especially if there's no way to permanently disable it. Is that standard in all most or all new cars now?

[MineralMan]

109. Both, most likely.

[pnwmom]

62. We disable that too. I don't like it either. n/t

[Jerry2144]

5. It is easy to do

Especially with hybrid cars and stop-start cars.

I have done that once on My 19 accord hybrid parked on the street. The engine rarely runs, so there is no sound to remind you. When you turn off the car, the dashboard stays lit until the driver door is open and it takes a few moments for it to show you your driving efficiency score. So if you park it and rush out without thinking, it will be running

[Tommy Carcetti]

6. My wife's car which I drive regularly is keyless, and after several years I still hate it.

I thought it was one of those new car tech innovations I would get used to after a while, but I just never have.

While I've never left it running, several times I've just left the fob sitting on the center console after I've turned the car off, thus inadvertently leaving the car unlocked and susceptible to someone being able to drive off with it. The instinct of having a key to turn off and then transferring it into my pocket never left me.

When it came time for me to buy a car last year, I specifically requested one with a traditional key ignition. I think there was only one of the model and package I was looking for that had a key ignition on the lot, which is why I ended up with a white car (not my preferred color.) I think the sales guy must have thought I was crazy for making that a hard demand, but I did not want a keyless ignition, and still don't.

There are a lot of newer car features that are genuinely good innovations. (Back up cameras, for example.) Keyless ignitions aren't one of them, though. They just seem to be new technology for the sake of new technology without really adding much (if anything) in terms of convenience.

[Happy Hoosier]

10. Disagree.

First off, leave the fob in your pocket.

Second, I VASTLY prefer not having to dig my keys out fumble to get it in the slot. Especially at night. My car senses the fob and unlocks when my hand touches the handle. I get it, the start button lights up, I press it. Vroom. On my way. Love it.

[Tommy Carcetti]

13. I don't like the idea of just having a fob in my pocket all the time.

Fobs aren't big and bulky like wallets or cell phones and it's not that difficult to forget that they're actually in your pocket. Honestly, I'm surprised I haven't inadvertently washed it in the washing machine by now.

I don't want a car that just activates itself because I'm in its general vicinity. If I want to get in a car, I want to be the one to unlock it (even though I've long gotten used to remote locks), and I want to be the one who actually starts and stops the ignition with a distinct physical action beyond a simple button push. Maybe it's a weird OCDish quirk of mine, but I do like to be in control of my technology and not visa versa.

[Happy Hoosier]

18. Fair enough, we all have preferences...

I just VASTLY prefer the keyless ignition. I won't buy another car without it.

As for a distinct action? I mean, what do you think you are doing when you turn the key? You are not longer just powering the starter. You just pressing a switch that sends a signal to the car's computer. Pretty much the same as the button.

There is the additional step of having to insert the key. But even with the just the button, you have to depress the brake pedal for it to start (at least in my car), so hard to do it accidentally.

[pnwmom]

63. The problem is that those of us who don't prefer it often don't have a choice

in many of the newer cars.

[Happy Hoosier]

81. Like manual transmissions.... the market speaks.

I know people who really want manual transmissions an can't get them because with limited exceptions, they just aren;t available anymore. Because the market, by-and-large, does not want them.

There are some things I prefer that are fading from the market.

[Tommy Carcetti]

86. Thing is, I really don't recall people clamoring for keyless ignition.

Like I don't remember vast amounts of people complaining about the huge hassle of having to put the key in the ignition.

Power windows? Remote locks? Sure.

But all throughout the 00s no one was really pushing for keyless ignitions.

I think the first to feature it was for Priuses for no particular rhyme or reason other than it was some futuristic new-fangled element to a futuristic type of car.

And I think the other manufacturers started thinking, "Well, let's do that, too." And so it eventually became a manufacturers trend rather than a consumer trend.

Now, for the most part, consumers more or less rolled with that trend and most accepted it, but they didn't really demand it.

[Happy Hoosier]

89. I love it, and it was definitely on my "shopping list"

of features I wanted. Absolutely.

I actively sought out models with that feature when I got my current car.

And my wife definitely wants it when she replaces hers next year. So there's that.

[robbob]

16. Also, if you leave the FOB in your pocket

wouldn’t the car shut off as soon as you are out of range? Sure seems like it should work that way…

[Happy Hoosier]

20. Mine does not.

It just beeps like crazy if you walk away. At least I don't THINK it shuts off after a while. But I've never left it more than a couple minutes.

But mine also has the remote start feature so I can start it from inside a warm place in the middle of winter. A very nice feature in NE Indiana in February! That's another advantage of the keyless system.

[inthewind21]

24. Yes

On a Toyota Avalon it most certainly does. I've had one since 2009.

[Dysfunctional]

32. Reread your post so I know how you lock and unlock your car.

I haven't any idea how those fobs work and are they the same for all makes and models?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

35. My car I just need to put my hand on the door handle

And it Auto Unlocks. If for some reason it doesn’t, I can push the button on the fob.
I’m more leery of the remote start feature - because of CO in my garage.

[Dysfunctional]

37. Thank you

[fishwax]

42. You unlock the door by pulling the handle with your key fob on your person, and lock it by touching

a spot on the handle after the door is closed with the key fob on your person. (On mine, at least, it won't lock from the outside if the key is still in the vehicle, so it is very difficult to lock your keys in the car.)

You can also lock/unlock it with the push of a button on the key fob (the same remote lock/unlock that has long been available for keyed doors). And if the battery in the key fob dies, you can pull an extension out of the fob that functions as a physical key.

I'm sure it works slightly differently for different makes/models, but the basic principles are the same. For instance, on my car I could have gotten a higher level of trim through which I could have locked/unlocked the passenger's side or the hatchback in the same way, but at my level of trim only the driver's side works. So If I've got groceries I have to either unlock the driver's side door and press the button to unlock the rest or use the button on the key fob. It's one of two features (the other being a wireless charger in the car) that make me sometimes wish I'd sprung for the higher level of trim, because it would be convenient, when carrying an armload of stuff, to not have to either dig in my pockets for the keys or unlock the driver's door first.

[Dysfunctional]

105. Thank you.

[Happy Hoosier]

82. The fob has a short field RFID chip.

The car knows when its near, and when I touch the handle, it unlocks the door. That simple.

[moonscape]

31. Keyless ignition is brilliant for me because I

no longer lose my keys. I had a life-long habit/quirk of holding my keys until I needed my hand for something, then absentmindedly setting them down and totally forgetting when/where I had done that. By life-long I mean since I was a teenager in the 60’s. Now, they just stay in my purse and out of my hands. Revolutionary!

[Tommy Carcetti]

51. I just think if you don't even take out your fob...

...why even have one at all?

Carrying something that you naturally forget you have just seems to be counterproductive, at least to me.

[fishwax]

53. My fob is on the same keyring as my house and office keys

That used to be bad practice, when the fobs were hanging in the ignition switch, as the extra weight could extra pressure on the unit, I guess. But it's how my folks always did it when I was a kid, before fobs even were commonplace.

I still use the fob occasionally to unlock other doors (as only the driver's side works from the RFID) if I've got passengers or if I'm putting stuff in the back.

[Happy Hoosier]

83. It lets the car know you're there.

In the winter time, I put my keys in the pocket of my coat and rarely remove them.

[Happy Hoosier]

9. My car beeps at you like crazy if it is unoccupied and running.

Hard to miss that.

But this could also be solved by having a timer automatically shut it off after a bit.


This ain't rocket science folks. There is nothing inherently "dangerous" about keyless ignitions. Sheesh.

[CrackityJones75]

12. yeah this is kind of my point

I am a little skeptical that there wasn’t any indication of the car running but also there are so many ways this can be remedied.

[sarcasmo]

33. If you close the door and leave it running, my Honda does really fast beeps.

[pnwmom]

64. If it "could" be solved, it should have been solved before they killed any people with these systems

They should have anticipated this problem because it WAS predictable.

[Happy Hoosier]

75. With all due respect....

... saying it is predictable is a matter of opinion.

It might seem obvious in hindsight, but as someone who develops technology for a living, it can be very, very difficult to identify hazard scenarios, especially those based on user error, which seems to be the issue here.

And I'm here to say that no matter diligent one thinks they've been in identifying hazard scenarios, there will be user that finds a hole you never, ever thought was reasonable.

I mean, who would think you get leave your car running in a garage and not notice?

[pnwmom]

76. Any automotive engineer should have realized that a car that could run silently

with a keyless ignition could be a hazard in a garage.

[Happy Hoosier]

77. An IC engine isn't silent.

It might be very quiet, but not silent.

I just get frustrated with folks making assumptions about developmental processes. Maybe you're an engineer yourself and this is your professional opinion, but more than once I've had lay people tell me what engineers "should" have done or known, when they've never been there themselves.

I'd like to say I've never been in position to have a bug pop up that I "should" have found, or that I've never missed a an "obvious" failure mode, but I can't. And I've never met an engineer who could.

[pnwmom]

78. My husband is a PhD Engineer and he has always been concerned about the CO issue.

Decades ago, before carbon monoxide detectors were invented, we knew a family that lost a child to a CO incident so that's always been on our minds.

A New York Times report tells the story of a couple who died of carbon-monoxide poisoning after their 2017 Toyota Avalon, equipped with a push-button keyless ignition, was mistakenly left running inside their garage.
The story outlines the problem of modern keyless-ignition systems that make it more difficult to be certain whether a car's engine is running.

Yes, engineers, like everyone else, can make mistakes. However, I can't understand how multiple teams of automative engineers in this day and age overlooked the issue.

[dawg]

17. This danger is more to do with enclosed garages than keyless ignitions.

n/t

[pnwmom]

65. Not really. It's the combination. People don't unknowingly leave running cars with keys

in their closed garages, thinking they've turned them off.

[dawg]

68. No, but people with keyed ignitions do die this way.

It's been a problem since before keyless ignitions were common.

[pnwmom]

69. Yes -- on purpose, usually. Not accidentally. nt

[inthewind21]

21. In order for

a Toyota Avalon to keep running after you walk away from it, you have to have left the key fob IN the car. But, we need to put warnings on bleach telling people not to drink it. Speaks more to the citizenry than it does the "danger" of a push button start.

[RainCaster]

22. Driving a keyless hybrid for 10 yrs

Never had a problem like that. The "push the button" action is as deliberate as turning a key. I prefer the idea of the key never leaving my pocket. It's another one of those modern conveniences and I appreciate it.

[ecstatic]

26. You have to be extremely distracted

My best advice to anyone who's easily distracted is to never leave your keys in the car. I used to do that but I hated having to run to the garage every time I needed my wallet for payment information. So now I always bring my purse inside, which is a good safety precaution anyway.

Also, have one set location for where you always put each key, no matter what. My driving key fob is always in my last used purse, and my "home" key fob is always downstairs in a convenient location. A neat trick I learned is that you can program one key to automatically lock your doors when you exit the vehicle (with your key), and the other key can be used at home, if you want to keep the doors unlocked. Your car's programming will be based on whichever key unlocked the doors last, so make sure you first lock and then unlock with the autolock key before going anywhere (as opposed to just entering the unlocked door and driving off).

[Johnny2X2X]

28. I love the feature, and many others new cars have

Keyless entry, key fob start, remote start through an app. All are great. I'm also loving other smart features like side mirror warnings when changing lanes that will let you know if you're merging into another car you don't see.

And rear view cameras for backing up are absolutely a necessity now. Took me about a month to get used to and trust them, but man, now I couldn't imagine driving without them. And the cameras are getting better, they work in low light, they come with wide angle lenses now that allow you to practically see the full panorama, this is great for backing out in parking lots when your view from your seat is blocked.

The engineering we're seeing today in cars is breath taking. Cannot wait to see how the big automakers evolve EVs. Drove a Tesla Model 3 the other week, the quality is not great, but the performance is mind blowing. VW, Toyota, GM, Ford, and Chrysler are going to blow Tesla away sooner rather than later. The engineering systems at those big companies is honed over decades to a razor's edge.

[Mariana]

30. A basic battery operated carbon monoxide detector is very inexpensive. nt.

[CaptainTruth]

45. This. So inexpensive they could be built into cars...

...& automatically shut off the engine when CO levels get too high.

[Mariana]

71. People should have one in the house anyway

if they have anything that burns fuel - furnace, water heater, dryer, oven, etc. Any of those can malfunction and emit CO.

[Pobeka]

34. And it makes auto theft far easier too.

Auto theft dropped dramatically when keys were developed that physically had to be in the ignition in order for the car to start (basically an rfid chip in the key that the smarts in the engine knows the key is there).

Keyless means - the key is constantly transmitting a signal. Keyless became more prevelent in England before here in the USA, and crooks are able to work in teams of two. One stands near the house (most people leave keys near the entrance), and one stands near the vehicle. First crook is holding a signal amplifier and is close enough to the actual key to receive and rebroadcast the signal to the second crook standing at the car with a second reciever that then looks like the real key as far as the car knows.

Auto theft started rising in England with the advent of keyless. Keyless -- all so you don't have to dig around in your pocket or bag to find your car key.

I'll have the old system thank you very much. It was simple and effective.

[calimary]

50. I'll take the old way, too.

Signed,

The latter-day Luddite.

[Happy Hoosier]

84. Most cars can turn off keyless entry if....

... you are worried about that.

Mine allows that, but my car is stored in a garage, so I'm not really concerned.

[USALiberal]

36. How about a better reason is to add a Carbon monoxide detector in your house

Last edited Thu Jun 16, 2022, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

[Mariana]

38. The story at the link doesn't even mention that idea. nt.

[USALiberal]

113. Whoops! Thanks! Fixed!!!

[jalan48]

40. My car beeps if I leave the engine on and open the door to get out. The only way I could

get asphyxiated would be to park the car in the garage and continue to sit in it for quite awhile with the dashboard lit up showing the car is still running.

[mainer]

41. When your fob battery goes dead in the middle of nowhere

At night, with no internet access to tell you how to start your car. That’s when you’ll really hate your fob.

[fishwax]

52. my fob has a key insert to get in the door

and it would have to have been dead a long time for it to not work when pressed up against the ignition button.

[mainer]

85. Didn't work for my daughter in law

After midnight, just left her job. Dark parking lot. Couldn’t get her door open cause fob battery dead. Door keyhole wasn’t accessible without prying a part off. Did I mention it was dark? Luckily a security guard helped her after looking it up on YouTube. I shudder to think what might have happened to her.

[fishwax]

94. Yeah, that's a rough situation to be in for sure

I know mine works because I've used it. The battery was low enough that the RFID wouldn't work on the door, but it still had the signal strength for several days (before I got the batteries changed) to start the ignition when up against the button.

[Meadowoak]

43. I love my keyless ignition, especially when you have a couple bags of groceries

In your hands, you don't have to fumble around for the keys. The trunk automatically unlocks, then you only need to touch the trunk lid for it to open. Same with the doors.

[IronLionZion]

44. A lot of folks don't realize CO goes through walls

It's good to have a detector in your home.

My 12 year old car has a key. I thought it was super fancy to have a switchblade style key. I'm not ready to buy a new car any time soon as there is a lot of new tech to get used to. Sometimes simpler is better and safer and more reliable.

[CaptainTruth]

46. Add CO detectors to cars. If the engine is running & CO level gets too high...

...the engine automatically turns off.

[Historic NY]

47. What my 2021 Chevy does...

I recently discovered that if I leave it running unattended for more than 15 minutes it will shut itself off. It does do this with remote start as well. In fact, it only allowed a restart 3 times.

Back to the unattended running in order to restart the vehicle one must have the keys close at hand and are required to physically move them before the vehicle will start. It also give a blaring alert if keys are left behind in the vehicle.

I don't know if they all do it, but my Tahoe does. It was built before all the chip problems.

Oh a dead fob is not a problem putting the fob in the left or right cup holder and then start as usual. Placement is mostly standard on GM vehicles.

[herding cats]

48. They auto shutoff now in Toyotas.

They beeped annoyingly before that, but somehow some folks managed to ignore that it seems.

Keyless ignitions started being a thing here in the US 20 years ago with Mercedes Benz. Now it's common. Auto shutoff for we absent minded Americans seems a good idea.

I haven't used a key in at least a decade with zero incidents of forgetting to turn my vehicle off, or a dead fob not letting me into my vehicle and stranding me someplace. But, I understand some people need more reminders than others.

[Old Crank]

49. There should be little CO Edited to remove the CO2 refence

Last edited Thu Jun 16, 2022, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Transfer from your garage to your house. They have a 2 hour fire wall and garage doors to the living space should have a gasket.

That being said, get a couple of CO detectors. One for the garage and one for any room in the house a garage door opens into.

Then familiarize yourself with how to turn off your car. I had a couple of Prius. When leaving the house the fob went into my pocket. It always had a house key so if I wanted in the house the key couldn't stay in the car.

I will admit, since I no longer own a car it is a bit disconcerting to have half the car left on after you hit the stop/start button until you open a door.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

59. CO is very different from CO2. Reread the OP again, because not knowing can be deadly. . . nt

[Old Crank]

93. Thanks for catching that.

Somehow I ended up with CO2 instead of CO.
Yes they are different gasses and the CO is much more deadly than CO2/

[sybylla]

54. They can put a switch in the passenger seat to turn off the airbags.

WTF can't they do this in the driver seat? If there isn't enough weight on the seat for a certain amount of time while the car is in park, it shuts off.

[Tree Lady]

55. My Prius is so quiet sometimes I

Can't tell if its on, I have pushed it a ton of times off thinking it was off already.

I am paranoid though about fumes so always have garage door up when in car even if not on.

I am always getting mad at hubby for starting his Harley in garage because it takes forever to get smell out even with both side and garage door open. I bought screen door with security bars on it for side door because I keep open all summer.

[LymphocyteLover]

56. Yes, very frightening.

[Hotler]

57. Keyless ignitions + hands free driving, no problem... nt

[Traildogbob]

60. I love my keyless truck

I do not have the start from in the house. But the touch the handle unlock is great. The first time I took my two dogs to bike near the Blue Ridge Parkway, I hade an experience. The dealer did not give me a full lesson on how it works. As I get ready to leave the trailhead, as I always have done, I lock the doors and before I leave I pull the handles on the doors to assure they are locked. Lots of trailhead vehicle theft around here. MAGA’s gotta get meth cash.
Anyway I pushed the key to lock the door, and every damn time I pulled the handle to check, it opened. I went back and fourth to both sides trying to get the door to lock and stay locked. This went on for 30 minutes, back and fourth, ranting to myself, what the hell, this is brand new, why is the locking system screwed up. Went ahead and took the girls hiking for abut 4 hours thinking it was unlocked, the whole time scared my truck would get broken into. Not a happy hike. Got home and read the Manuel and tried leaving the key in the house, and damn….it worked. Called the car salesman so he could laugh at me.
It is really nice returning to my truck with dogs leashed and keys in my back back, to Just pull the door handle. I love it, especially if it’s raining and I don’t fumble through the pack in the rain. My engine is loud enough I know it’s running. Also, my turn engine off, exit the truck, put in park and hand break is as anal as leaving the trail head.
Definitely a great thing for me, now I know how to lock the damn thing.

[Xoan]

61. I've also heard ...

people have died because they forgot to turn off the engine with their key.

[pnwmom]

66. That would be much harder to do, for most people. nt

[Torchlight]

67. We traded in our two older cars on one new model

with all the bells and whistles. First new model car I've driven since the 90s and I was a bit overwhelmed by all the new gear for the first couple of days.

But I quickly became accustomed to having a screen act as back-up rear-view mirrors, the car locking and unlocking on its own, and the fob.

Turns out, I really dig the new gadgets. I can't foresee forgetting to turn the engine off as the car beeps far too loudly when it's on and the seatbelt isn't fastened to let me forget.

But I get the nostalgia for the less-complex older models too. If money was no issue, my dream car would still be a '76 Super Beetle.

[pnwmom]

70. We had a Super Beetle, too -- a 71, I think. I learned to drive on it!

It was much much nicer to learn stick on that than to drive my parents' huge Chrysler.

[Torchlight]

80. Now I'm kinda jealous. :)

I've never driven a large auto w/ a stick, only smaller cars. Can't really imagine how tough it is to learn driving a stick in bigger auto.

(pretty sure I'll be daydreaming about old muscle cars and souped-up stock cars for the rest of the afternoon. lol)

[pnwmom]

88. No, I fouhd it much easier to drive stick on the Super Beetle

than automatic on my parent's overpowered big car.

I liked the feeling of control.

But my MOTHER learned to drive on a huge car with a stick transmission, because that's all that was available.

Decades later, during a gasoline crisis, she decided to buy a little Mazda with a stick shift -- but she hadn't driven one for 25 years. I didn't have my license yet (my boyfriend was in the process of teaching me), but I could sit next to her and operate the shifter with my hand while she did the clutch thing with her feet -- and we got home from the dealership like that! And then she practiced at home and it all came back very quickly.

I guess if you learn to drive stick when you're young you never really lose that. But I'd rather not have to return at this point.

[fishwax]

72. This article is three years old, and most manufacturers now have automatic shutoffs

There was a bill to mandate a regulatory change requiring automatic shutoffs, but I don't think it ever passed. I'm not sure why. But GM and Ford supported the bill and began standardizing automatic shutoffs just the same (even before this article came out). Toyota followed suit, at least in terms of making automatic shutoff standard.

[pnwmom]

73. Did they recall all the vehicles that don't? More people drive used cars than new. n/t

[fishwax]

74. I doubt a recall is the best tool for addressing this problem

Fixing the issue in new cars seems like a no-brainer, and raising awareness wrt the older models is also a good idea, of course.

[pnwmom]

79. Why not? nt

[fishwax]

97. I think it would have quickly diminishing returns beyond raising awareness

We're not talking about a catastrophic failure that would affect you or other drivers on the road (like, say, the goodyear tire recall) or a failure of a safety device one counts on in an uncontrollable emergency (like an airbag recall), but rather an issue that can be prevented with more attention and care. My vehicle has an automatic turnoff and I don't have a garage anyway, so the situation doesn't really apply to me. But if it did apply and I got such a notice of a recall, I'm not sure I would follow through on it. I would likely say "that's something good to be extra cautious of." The effort required to attend to the situation on my own going forward would be a better investment for me than the effort of following the steps for the recall, possibly being without my car for a time, etc. I would imagine that many people, if informed of a recall of their vehicle for a similar situation, might react similarly. I'm not an expert on the logistics of recalls, or anything, so it's all speculation on my part of course. But it just doesn't seem the best tool for this job.

Perhaps I've just missed it, but I haven't seen any consumer advocacy groups calling for a recall for this, but there were plenty calling for manufacturers to address the issue. Those efforts have produced good results wrt manufacturers, but as I said before I'm not sure the legal regulations ever made it out of congress.

[pnwmom]

98. I knew a family of 5 that were all poisoned by carbon monoxide in a different kind of accident,

and it seemed like a catastrophic event to me.

One died and two children were permanently brain damaged.

GM fixed its affected cars for $5 per vehicle in 2015. The other manufacturers should have followed suit. Instead, they were resisting Federal legislation requiring software changes costing pennies per vehicle.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/business/deadly-convenience-keyless-cars-and-their-carbon-monoxide-toll.html

Seven years ago, the world’s leading automotive standards group, the Society of Automotive Engineers, called for features like a series of beeps to alert drivers that cars were still running without the key fob in or near the car, and in some cases to shut the engine off automatically.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration proposed a federal regulation based on that idea, a software change that it said could be accomplished for pennies per vehicle. In the face of auto industry opposition, the agency let the plan languish, though it says a rule is still under consideration.

[fishwax]

99. that is horrible, to be sure

(I don't see what it has to do with my post, though. I never said nor implied that such deaths aren't sad or tragic or any such thing.)

[pnwmom]

100. You said: "We're not talking about a catastrophic failure that would affect you or other drivers on

the road."

I don't think it matters whether the catastrophic failure occurs on the road or in a person's garage.

[fishwax]

101. exactly. And what about that sentence implies any lack of concern about the situation you describe?

To elaborate further: a situation in which a car may lose control in traffic, causing injuries to the driver, to passengers, to the drivers and passengers of other cars, and to pedestrians, etc. raises a different level of concern among most people than a situation that only arises when the car is parked in one's garage and one has forgotten to turn it off.

I think that if you told 100 people there were two problems with their car, one which could cause catastrophic failure while driving, thus jeopardizing their safety and the safety of everyone else around them at literally any given moment, and another which could kill you if you parked the car in the garage and forgot to turn it off, I'm guessing that most people would prioritize fixing the first problem.

Recognition of this difference does not trivialize the suffering of those who have been impacted by the second problem.

[pnwmom]

103. As I said, this failure in a garage could hurt multiple people,

like the family I knew. And a failure on the road might only hurt the driver, or it might hurt multiple people, too.

This feels like splitting hairs to me. Some of the manufacturers were resisting a software change that would have cost pennies per vehicle. Does it really make sense that your argument hangs on HOW MANY INDIVIDUALS might be hurt in a particular failure?

[fishwax]

104. I feel like you are mischaracterizing or misrepresenting my argument

You asked me why I didn't think a recall would be the right tool for this situation, and I responded in a way that I think makes sense. That's all. I'm not saying it's not a problem, or that manufacturers were right to resist software changes or anything like that. And I'm certainly not saying, as you implied I was, that such lives are irrelevant or immaterial. So when you say "Does it really make sense that your argument hangs on HOW MANY INDIVIDUALS might be hurt in a particular failure?" I don't really even know what argument you're talking about.

[Brenda]

87. Oh for god's sake

Maybe people who can't tell if their expensive automobile is turned off or not should not be driving in the first place.

[pnwmom]

90. I disagree. The manufacturers should have spent $5 more per car to eliminate the problem.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/business/keyless-carbon-monoxide.html


“This is something we clearly have the technology to prevent,” Representative Jan Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat and the bill’s lead House sponsor, said of the carbon-monoxide deaths.

Ford and General Motors have announced their support for the legislation.

Some automakers have added an automatic shut-off, including Ford on all its keyless vehicles since the 2015 model year. G.M. retrofitted some of its vehicles to add the automatic shut-off, at $5 apiece, the company told regulators.

Toyota, whose vehicles have been involved in half of the fatal incidents, has announced that its 2020 keyless models will come with an automatic shut-off function. It would not say whether it supported the congressional legislation.

[Brenda]

91. Okay, that's a good cheap fix

Still can't believe anyone can't tell if their car is on or off, unless they are impaired or cognitively unable to.

[pnwmom]

95. These cars are very quiet. But the manufacturers were resisting the tiny cost

to fix the problem, and millions of them are still on the road.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/business/deadly-convenience-keyless-cars-and-their-carbon-monoxide-toll.html

Seven years ago, the world’s leading automotive standards group, the Society of Automotive Engineers, called for features like a series of beeps to alert drivers that cars were still running without the key fob in or near the car, and in some cases to shut the engine off automatically.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration proposed a federal regulation based on that idea, a software change that it said could be accomplished for pennies per vehicle. In the face of auto industry opposition, the agency let the plan languish, though it says a rule is still under consideration.

[Brenda]

96. Can't read, paywall

But I'll take your word for it. I stand corrected.

[helpisontheway]

110. My husband's hybrid is so quiet. You literally can't tell it is on. This is something to think about

Thank you for posting.

[Mariana]

114. Put a CO detector in your house, if you don't already have one.

The writer of the story neglected to mention that simple, inexpensive solution.

[ForgedCrank]

115. Sounds like

some people may be messing with the settings. My cars shut themselves off if rhey idle for more than 30 minutes.

I do agree on the touch screen stuff though.

When I got my first car with all those doo-dads in it, it was very distracting trying to do something simple like change the radio station. I would have to pull over somewhere and it was very annoying.
After I finally got the stupid voice commands to (mostly) work, it was a lot better. I'd still much rather have an old school mechanical button to push than argue with a voice system that only understands me most of the time instead of all the time, and the more pissed off I get, the less it understands me. I don't know what the motivation is to move away from simplicity that never breaks. It's very aggravating.

[musette_sf]

116. I left a keyless car running once

but it was a rental and it was outside in a parking lot. The facility at which I was attending a meeting paged “whoever left their car running in the visitors’ parking”.

I felt like