[Unpopular Opinion?] Mike Pence was not 40ft away from being murdered.

[speak easy]

There is an assumption in some commentary that if the Mob had caught up Mike Pence being escorted by the Secret Service, he would have been injured or worse. IMO, what would have happened next would have been a blood bath. The Secret Service would have opened fire ... to kill. And the most likely thing that would have happened next is those big brave proud boys would have turned tail or, at least, attended to their wounded. The Secret Service would then have continued evacuating Pence to a secure location, with covering fire, if necessary.

So no, the United States was not 40ft away from the end of democracy. Not as I see it.

[Irish_Dem]

1. Would the SS have been outnumbered?

Did they have time to call in back up?

[Effete Snob]

2. It's tough to say

It is indisputable that the rest of the people in that stairwell were deterred when Ashli Babbit decided for suicide by cop.

I'm amazed that it did not turn into the scene you describe. We usually talk about unreasonable use of force by law enforcement, but this was almost unreasonable restraint.

I'm not sure it would necessarily turn out as you describe, though. A human wave attack against a small number of armed defenders will ultimately win. If, say, the shooting were to occur at the exterior doors where it was basically several thousand people converging on one point, you have to wonder.

Also, if it had come down to several armed defenders and enough of the yo-yo's wearing body armor, then the defenders could reasonably run out of ammunition before a second wave is deterred.

It's still close to what, yes, would have been a lot more people getting shot.

[Wounded Bear]

7. Not with the funneling affect of the hallway...

Assuming the SS opens fire, and I think they would have if the VP was endangered, they would open fire with their side arms. So figure 3-5 agents firing 15 rounds down a narrow hallway at a crowd of people. The first 'wave' drops and probably the second. The ones behind, once they collect themselves would have to climb over the pile of bodies, while the VP & Company are escorted out in a different direction.

So, think 8-15 insurrectionists dead or wounded in the hallway. Maybe some of the insurrectionists are carrying, but reports are that it was a small percentage, and besides, the SS has drills for this type of scenarios.

[Effete Snob]

12. Yes, we got really close to a pile of dead bodies

[speak easy]

17. and TFG would have celebrated those pics

[Straw Man]

27. Yes.

And not only side arms. The Secret Service also have access to some discreetly carried long guns, as witnessed when Hinkley shot Reagan and we saw briefcases yielding Uzis. Now it would probably be Heckler and Koch MP5s. Even an enraged mob it unlikely to charge into a funnel full of full-auto weapons fire.

[Claustrum]

3. I kind of agree with one exception.

You don't know what the sound of gun shots would do to the other insurrectionist crowds. If they were to rush over to the direction of gun shot, Pence's team could very well meet up with a lot of those insurrectionists and it could turn very badly as the insurrectionists were already very angry and crazy. Seeing some of their own shot dead might trigger them to go even crazier.

[speak easy]

4. Pence was being shepherded down stairs.

The wells would have become choked with bodies.

[viva la]

6. Umm, I am pretty sure the Secret Service would have protected Pence...

pretty sure.

But I remember one of Biden's early acts was to reassign most of Trump's SS agents and bring into to protect him and FL agents he knew and trusted from his VP years.

[Farmer-Rick]

11. Yeah, the loyalty of the Secret Service was questionable

Not sure they would have opened fire on an attack on Pence. Some of them saw the Nazi wing of Trump worshippers as their allies.

And that whole thing about Pence refusing to get into the car. It smacks of distrust by Pence of his security detail.

[speak easy]

16. The loyalty of Pence's Secret Service was never in question.

Whether a Secret Service driver had been instructed to get Pence out of D.C. is another matter.

[Farmer-Rick]

19. Yes, Pence's Secret Service loyalty was questioned and by others too

"The nation needs to know whether its vice president did or did not trust the Secret Service to do the right thing for democracy."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/ncna1296424

So there are questions about that whole getting in the car thing because of suspected disloyalty of the Secret Service protecting(?) Pence.

So there are questions if the Secret Service would have opened fire on a mob attacking Pence, especially a mob they may have seen as political allies.

[speak easy]

21. Nothing Burge

Pence to head of his Secret Service detail : "I know you, I trust you, but you're not the one behind the wheel."

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/mike-pence-was-danger-jan-6-who-n1296424

[Farmer-Rick]

22. I think it goes deeper than that

"From Jacob’s testimony, we’re left to infer that Pence’s comment reflected not only his resolve to remain in the building to complete certification of the electoral college vote, but also his fear that certain Secret Service agents might be more loyal to Trump than to the Constitution."

From the same link.

[Ohio Joe]

20. Is there any evidence for that?

“ Some of them saw the Nazi wing of Trump worshippers as their allies.”

This is the first time I’m seeing this accusation made… Is there any evidence to back it up?

[Farmer-Rick]

23. Here's a link......others are saying the same thing.

There were also some SS agents removed from president Biden's detail due to suspected sympathy for TFG

Then there was that con a group of SS agents got caught up in.

So, there is some damning evidence.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/ncna1296424

[Ohio Joe]

25. Nothing there says anything like that...

Everything in that article talks about Pence being worried they would drive him away… Nothing says they saw the insurrectionists as their allies. At best for your claim, they would drive him away at TFG’s order… Even that is pure speculation.

Biden changed his SS to people he was familiar with… Again, anything nefarious reported was speculation.

The ‘as con’ had nothing I ever saw that had anything to do with tfg or his minions.

The media only cares about ratings… Drama and conspiracy bring ratings. Conspiracy is not evidence. To stretch these vague conspiracy bits into a conclusion that SS was on the side of the insurrectionists is nonsense. So much on 1/6 would have gone so very different if it was even one ounce true.

I really wish we would become the party of facts and reality we claim we are.

[Farmer-Rick]

31. Riiiiight

You asked for evidence. I gave you evidence. You may disagree it isn't enough evidence for you, but it is evidence.

If you do a search you will find each of those topics being addressed by reputable sources. Even the link I post provides evidence and opinions from MSNBC.

Bewailing the evidence as if it doesn't really exist, as if it is only drama spewd out by right wing nut jobs is very similar to what TFG does when he calls facts fake news.

[Ohio Joe]

34. Conspiracy is not evidence

I did not dismiss anything as ‘fake news’, I gave a factual address of your link and anecdotes. Instead of giving a factual reply to me with say… Anything direct instead of implied conspiracy, I get ‘nuh uh’.

Sheesh

[Farmer-Rick]

37. You merely repeated the facts I posted

And excused them as insufficient to draw the conclusion I made. You did that with ALL 3 pieces of evidence.

The evidence is not a smoking gun but since the Secret Service is...well...so secretive, there will never be a smoking gun. That's why we still have conspiracies swirling around when they failed to protect JFK.

They managed to protect the right wing Saint Reagan but they were utterly useless when protecting a really great president like JFK. So, with a wishy-washy man like Pence, we're not sure which way they would go, but I understand why he did not trust them.

[NewsCenter28]

39. Here's some evidence for you, Ohio Joe

CNN AC360 transcript, June 16, 2022. I also saw this live and was stunned:

COOPER: The Committee also revealed testimony by White House aides that the President Trump already knew rioters were inside the Capitol before he tweeted that Pence quote, didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution.

I'm joined now by the Washington Post, Carol Leonnig, who has chronicled the security issues depends finally face that day. She is also the author of Zero Fail The Rise And Fall Of The Secret Service and co-author of I Alone Can Fix It. Donald J. Trump's Catastrophic Final Year.

Carol, what did today reveal to the American people about the danger the Pence family and their entourage were in.

CAROL LEONNIG, NATIONAL INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Anderson, I think what today unveiled and uncovered was how much closer to mortal danger, Pence, his wife, his daughter and his aides all were in. You know, we chronicled very shortly after January 6 that Pence came within 100 feet of rioters that were storming into the building as he was spirited off the Senate floor and to the hideaway with his secret service detail. Actually, it was not 100 feet, it was 40 feet. And what we also learned is the degree to which his secret service detail was pressuring him to leave as soon as possible. Because of the people chanting hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence outside. The family was aware of this, but they weren't aware of just how horrible it was.

Greg Jacobs, Pence's attorney told the World Today, you know, he heard rumblings outside but he didn't really realize just how catastrophic things could have been.

COOPER: It's interesting. I mean, was and I'm not sure if we know this, but was Vice President Pence aware in that moment at that time, just how close the mob was and 40 feet away from him and his family.

LEONNIG: No, my understanding from sources is that he knew it was close, but not that close. He was spirited to the hideaway before those rioters got to the basically the riser in between the two floors and confronted officer Goodman who brilliantly as you know, in this video, led those rioters away from the Senate floor and ultimately away from where Pence and his family in his detail were in hiding. Then he was taken to the basement because his detail leader said OK, we're done. We're out of here.

Pence had turned him down Anderson, two times and on the third time to evacuate, his detail leader said we have to get out of this floor. We have to get to the basement. It's not safe. But of course as you know from Today's testimony when they got to the basement Pence was still suspicious essentially about being spirited away from the Capitol. And he had gained a new determination that he was going to stay, finished the work, certify the election, the victory of his opponent, Joe Biden. He was going to finish the work, even though, as you've shown here tonight, the President had put a target on his vice presidents back.

[20:35:31]

COOPER: And to see him I mean, again, reading, you know, looking at the phone, being aware of the, you know, the tweet that the President had sent out in this incredibly dark moment for him and his family. That's just such an extraordinary, extraordinary moment. What other reasons based on your reporting, made the Vice President want to stay put?

LEONNIG: You know, what I learned in Zero Fail and the reporting about the deep dive into the Secret Service is that the service was very conflicted. Many people who served at the right hand of President Trump were essentially MAGA hat supporters. They were all in for Donald Trump.

COOPER: I mean, not the Secret Service personnel.

LEONNIG: Yes, they took to their own social media platforms, their own Facebook postings, or Instagram postings to cheer on some of the rioters as patriots.

COOPER: Wow.

LEONNIG: And buy that, now, of course, Pence didn't know that when he's in the basement of the Capitol. But what he did know and what his aides knew was that the President was not caring about Vice President Pence's life. He had just said Pence shows no courage as people are chanting. Trump supporters are chanting to end Pence's life. And he was suspicious and his aides were especially suspicious that perhaps the Secret Service wasn't calling the ball. Perhaps Donald Trump, through other secret service senior leaders in the White House was calling the ball about removing and whisking Pence away from the Capitol. And he was determined not to do that.

COOPER: Wow.

LEONNIG: He decided somewhere between, you know, the Senate hideaway and the basement limousine. I'm not getting in that car. I'm not leaving.

COOPER: It's so chilling that reporting that -- it's just incredible. Carol Leonnig, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Just ahead, an in depth look at someone we mentioned earlier, Ginni Thomas wife is Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas why the committee is increasingly interested in her and her response to their request for an interview.

And later new photos supposedly the two Americans in Ukraine who's worried family members we talked to last night in this program. The photo which we can't confirm appears to show them hands tied behind their backs bound held by the Russians, the back the truck looks like. We'll have the latest on what we know about them and word of a third American now missing as well in Ukraine.

[LakeArenal]

5. Intention would be to kill Mike Pence. Ability maybe not.

[TwilightZone]

8. I find posts like this interesting.

"There is an assumption in some commentary that if the Mob had caught up Mike Pence being escorted by the Secret Service, he would have been injured or worse."

An informant in the Proud Boys stated that had they caught him, they would have killed him. The "but, the Secret Service" argument is really meaningless. Sure, they could have stopped them. That doesn't mean the threat wasn't real.

Had you been in Pence's shoes, would you have felt threatened?

I don't think many of us has ever experienced an active mob of hundreds calling for our executions. I'm not sure what we gain by nit-picking the circumstances.

[speak easy]

9. I agree. But I was challanging the assumption in some commentary

that Pence was likely to have been injured, or worse. Was Trump putting his VP's life in danger - yes. Was that risk substantial - no.

[Novara]

36. And your opinion is no more valid than ...

... the opinion that you're trying to debunk. Ain't America great?

[NCLefty]

10. Your hypothetical is just that.

And that mob could have surprised and overrun the agents, had enough come around a corner at once. Or or or... so many possibilities. Ghost gun? Uhhh...

My point is that they could be right, you could be right, but neither of us really knows.

[speak easy]

13. There is nothing hypothetical about the training and weapons

given to the Service Service.

[brer cat]

14. I agree.

I'm not sure how many of those very brave patriots would have rushed toward gunfire.

[speak easy]

15. But we do know that Trump himself would have led the charge

into a school with an active shooter

[FBaggins]

38. Exactly

Likely the same people making this claim argue that a teen with an AR-15 is an almost-unstoppable force against crowds… yet can’t see the far greater disparity between that teen and extremely-trained experts in much larger numbers?

And the crowd was “armed” primarily with a toy gallows outside?

[Emile]

18. When an angry lawless mob is chanting to hang someone, I wouldn't

guess what they would or not do. Take them for their word!

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

24. You are assuming that one of these crazed fascists would not have shot

VP Pence in the head.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

26. Thank You!!!!

That is exactly what would have happened, as we saw when that woman, Ashley, was shot and killed when she tried to breach an area where the politicians were being protected by the police.

[gulliver]

28. Nope, you're ignoring Ashli Babbit and loose screw types

Would the Proud Boys have turned tail? Maybe most of them would. But that crowd had a high, high concentration of nuts. They wouldn't be where they were if that weren't true. If a group of twenty of them, say, saw Mike Pence down a hall, they would have charged him. The Secret Service would have created a pile of bodies.

[Hortensis]

29. Agree. Obvious, and I've said it elsewhere also. The reality was/is bad enough

without insisting that worst-possible was probable, no matter how unlikely.

Btw, I haven't heard how many of those guarding the Capitol and people had an automatic weapon, we just know not enough. BUT, the one stationed in the middle of the Senate chamber while it was being evacuated did, while officers with pistols covered each of the doors. I haven't heard where that one with the automatic weapon went after they left the empty chamber to the rioters, but it would have been to his next station.

[milestogo]

30. What matters is that they INTENDED to kill Pence and Pelosi

and there wasn't much in the way.

[BannonsLiver]

33. I'm betting the OP would disagree with that as well.

“Oh they would have been just fine. No big deal. Stop being so dramatic.” or some variation.

[speak easy]

43. And you would lose your bet -

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16814398

[BannonsLiver]

32. Thanks for clearing that up.

[usedtobedemgurl]

41. Are you very sure?

Pence said he trusted one of the SS agents. He did not comment on the others. Biden changed his SS crew when he took office. Some SS guys got in trouble and it was found out they were excepting all sorts of expensive gifts. (That was after the inauguration, they found out).

You are positive, when Pence only said to one agent, he trusted them, that he trusted all the others. We know some cops seemed to usher in the rioters. We are sure SS would not have helped the rioters out? There may have been a fight, but I think the bloodshed would be on the side of Pence and not traitors and rioters.