A misinterpreted nugget addressed in the third Jan 6 hearing...

[brooklynite]

In the past, folks here have suggested that Pence didn't want to get into his car at the Capitol because he couldn't "trust" the Secret Service, the implication being that some SS might be working with Trump and the insurrectionists.

The testimony of Pence's aide Greg Jacob in the third Hearing puts this to rest. Pence's concern was that the driver of the car might take direction from his superiors rather than Pence himself and drive away for safety reasons, creating the image that he was scared and fleeing the mob.

If you're sticking with the first explanation, consider that those same Secret Service agents are now working in the Biden White House. Do you really imagine that suspect agents would be allowed to stay on the job?

[hlthe2b]

1. I'm not saying I subscribe to scenario 1, but BIden DID replace members of original detail to ensure

there were no Trump loyalists. It was in Carol Loennig's book and she's written about it for WAPO.

[Yoyoyo77]

11. One guy from secret service HQ took leave to work for Trumps re-election.

He went back after the election but was moved to a desk job. No reason for suspicion?

[BSdetect]

2. Are they not trained to blend in?

[brooklynite]

3. Are Secret service not trained to identify threats that blend in?

[MerryBlooms]

16. I think Pence and His secret service recognized Trump

Secret service risk. Do you deny?

[brooklynite]

24. I do, absent evidence to the contrary.

DOJ has been working to prosecute those engaged in the insurrection. Do you imagine the Secret Service leadership wouldn't cooperate?

[MerryBlooms]

27. You have absence to the contrary, Pence's own words.

So, can we stop with the devil advocate? You don't know if DOJ is involved in Pence's time underground. Garland may well be involved, we don't know.

[gab13by13]

4. Pence said he didn't trust the driver,

the reason he didn't trust the driver wasn't explained by Pence himself. I will leave it at that.

[brooklynite]

6. ...and Jacob explained why.

[gab13by13]

7. That doesn't make it the reason,

would Jacob explain the truth if Pence did fear for his life, I wouldn't.

I honestly do not believe they were going to harm Pence, but there are traitors everywhere.

[brooklynite]

9. So Jacob committed perjury?

He could have just as easily said he didn't know what Pence's reasoning was.

And no, I don't believe "there are traitors everywhere", absent direct evidence.

[dpibel]

17. Have you at all been watching the hearings?

They seem to support the proposition that there are traitors everywhere.

Your mileage, as ever, MV. Probably does.

[brooklynite]

21. I have indeed...

"Everywhere" is an all-encompassing term...which I don't apply to the Secret Service, absent evidence.

[MerryBlooms]

19. Are you okay with the Loudermilk tours? Nothing there?

I believe loudermilk is a traitor, along with many other republicans.

[brooklynite]

20. Which has nothing to do with the secret service

[MerryBlooms]

22. 🤣

[MerryBlooms]

25. You claimed there weren't traitors everywhere,

I brought up loudermilk. It would be helpful if you responded to pertinent threads. Thanks.

[brooklynite]

26. "Everywhere" means "everywhere".

What Loudermilk or other House members did says nothing about what the Secret Service did.

[MerryBlooms]

29. Did you take tap dancing in grade school? 😉

[brooklynite]

31. No, I just like to avoid overarching claims. How about you?

[MerryBlooms]

36. No, but I wanted to. 😄 Unfortunately, I have bid farewell

My alarm will go off at 5:30 in the morning forwork. I will say, you're never a dull interaction. Take care. G'night.

[hlthe2b]

37. Jacob did not say specifically that Pence had "told him that." Nor did he say that was the only

reason. Nor did he say whether or not this was his supposition, which could well be wrong without committing perjury. If he was interrogated about this (on the specifics of how he came to conclude this) by committee members or staffers, it wasn't shown, nor has it been discussed. Only the recorded segment of his comments that address the issue was included in the hearing.

So, unless Pence is asked directly, I can not conclude that his attorney's comment on the matter was either totally complete as to Pence's concerns or wholly accurate.

[Mr.Bill]

5. Are those same agents now working in the White House?

In thought I heard/read that Biden brought in a completely different crew than the Trump administration had. Mostly ones that had protected him when he was VP.

[dpibel]

8. Names, please

"consider that those same Secret Service agents are now working in the Biden White House"

How do you know this?

Do you have a list of the agents who were involved vs. the agents now working at the WH?

I mean, I know you are an important and connected guy, but that's a pretty remarkable assertion that I may not be inclined entirely to take at face value.

Also: In your world, testimony "puts this to rest"? People actually do shade their testimony and even--I know this will shock you--fabricate when they're pretty sure they can't be gainsaid.

[agingdem]

10. Early in Biden's first year there was an article or two

about replacing Secret Service agents close to Trump and his family..in fact, in Carol Leonnig’s book (Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Secret Service) she wrote of the “close” relationships Vanessa Trump and Tiffany Trump had with their Secret Service details..and there were explicit rumors of Wife #3 having her way with her assigned Secret Service detail...

[MerryBlooms]

15. 💯

[MerryBlooms]

18. Thank you for your well thought out and logical words.

I am on my phone and don't know how to do the same for you and copy, just in case. 🥰

[MerryBlooms]

12. Which of those secret service are working in the White House?

Pence didn't trust the driver on J6, that's all we know. Your repetitive defense of these traitors is amusing. Well moneyed talking points, to whose advantage? Certainly not any Democratic frontrunner you're supporting. You continually claim, "Devil's Advocate.". Again, to whose advantage? I see republican advantage. But, you always claim DU doesn't matter in the real world of Democratic politics. So, what's your real game here? You are supposedly unemotional, but your words betray you. So just be honest. Why constantly call out fellow DU members, and supposedly, play Devil's Advocate?

[dpibel]

13. It's a puzzle, innit?

We will hope your post doesn't get taken down for personal attacks or flaming.

I personally consider your words, which follow, to be legitimate questions, not personal attacks or flaming. The words to which I refer:

Pence didn't trust the driver on J6, that's all we know. Your repetitive defense of these traitors is amusing. Well moneyed talking points, to whose advantage? Certainly not any Democratic frontrunner you're supporting. You continually claim, "Devil's Advocate.". Again, to whose advantage? I see republican advantage. But, you always claim DU doesn't matter in the real world of Democratic politics. So, what's your real game here? You are supposedly unemotional, but your words betray you. So just be honest. Why constantly call out fellow DU members, and supposedly, play Devil's Advocate?

[MerryBlooms]

14. Thank you so much for copying my post just in case. 🥰

[brooklynite]

23. Reality sucks, doesn't it?

I do a lot more for Democratic candidates than most keyboard warriors, but I do so while sticking to reality, rather than joining in with "we all know" conspiracy theories.

nb: I played "Devil's Advocate" in exactly ONE post, merely to point out that "we know he's guilty" assertions in the blogosphere won't translate to convictions in Court.

[MerryBlooms]

34. I'm not a keyboard warrior. I'm just a plain ol' Democratic

Heart since my daddy put me on his shoulders when I was 5, at the Medford, Oregon courthouse to see Bobby Kennedy speak. My dad said, "Pay attention, kitten, this man is going to change the world.". That's it, that's all I've been. My dad was a heavy equipment opperator, for the county. He taught me to drive all those cool machines...I was named after him, I was his only child and supposed to be a boy. lol You know what, when it comes to votes, yours ain't no better than mine! You may give more money, but you ain't got no more heart nor love. You think about that a while. Maybe you and your high money pals need to start thinking about us little folks in Oregon, and all those other states fu of Democratic voters, that you folks see fit not to put money into... You might want to Finally listen to the folks in PA who support Fetterman. Get your bodies into the streets and off the internet. Get where the people are. I don't have a lot of money, but I damn sure give at every opportunity.

[brooklynite]

28. Whether they're working in the White House or not...

...are you suggesting that Secret Service members who were considered a security risk are working at all, and weren't subject to DOJ prosecution?

[brush]

30. IMO Pence didn't get in the car because he wasn't sure...

Last edited Sun Jun 19, 2022, 01:14 AM - Edit history (2)

they'd get him back that day, Jan. 6, for him to finish his Constitutional duty on J6. And with a wild insurrection raging, it wasn't a certainty that the SS would be able to get him back. I think also he wanted to do his duty in order to finish off trump, leaving more of a chance for himself in 2024.

Whatever the reason, thank God he didn't leave and finished his Constitutional duty. If not, who knows what would've kicked off. Grassley, as Senate Pro Tem may have stepped in and rejected the EC ballots or
sent them back to the states–what trump wanted and Eastman kept pushing.

And once it was Jan. 7, with the EC ballots not confirmed all bets were off. With Steven Miller likely in his ear, trump would've probably declared martial law as he was now in total charge and Biden's election not certified, confirmed or whatever the word is.

There's no Constitutional clause to cover such an unprecedented eventuality but I would bet magats nationwide would've felt that they'd won and who could blame them. They'd be in streets rejoicing and who knows what would've jumped off if our side had went into the streets too.

Thank God Pence didn't leave as the inauguration may never have happened on Jan. 20 with trump in total charge. We came that close to losing it.

[brooklynite]

33. A perfectly reasonable assessment...

...which, unlike others, doesn't assume that Pence felt his SS detail was part of the insurrection conspiracy.

[FakeNoose]

32. Thank you my friend, and well said

I've been saying the same thing since the Day After Jan. 6th. Pence had no fear of the Secret Service agents, and they were looking to do their job and protect his life (along with his family members) that day.

[Mister Ed]

35. Greg Jacob doesn't pretend to know what was on the minds of the Secret Service agents.

He can't know, and doesn't try to say, what the agents were thinking or why they might have driven Pence away. He can only tell us that he thinks Pence wouldn't get in the car because he felt that fleeing would be bad optics.

So, why might the agents have driven away with Pence if he'd gotten in the car? Three possibilities that I can see:

First, and by far and away the most likely in my view, would simply be to protect Pence. His protection is their mission, and they take that mission very, very seriously indeed.

The second possibility would be that some agents in the detail were loyal Trumpists who wanted to see the election certification postponed or prevented. That's entirely possible. There are many such gung-ho Trumpists in our general population. There's no reason to think that none of them could be Secret Service agents. If there were agents with such motivations, they'd get two birds with one stone by protecting the VP while helping to derail the certification. It's impossible for me to know or say.

The third theoretical possibility would be that they wanted to kidnap Pence and bring him to harm. I think that's unlikely in the extreme. After all, if they wanted Pence harmed, they could have just waited a few more minutes before rushing him from the office to the underground garage. He came within a hair's breadth of being harmed by the mob as it was.

So, why was Pence unwilling to get in the car? It could be no more than what Greg Jacob tells us: that Pence was concerned about how it would look to the world if he fled. But is Jacob really privy to Pence's thoughts?

Speaking for myself, I know that if I and my wife and my daughter were in mortal danger, I would have other things on my mind than appearances. I would be concerned with our survival. I think Pence knew that he and his family would never be safe while millions of rabid Trumpists believed he had the power to overturn the election. He had to stay and get that certification completed.

I'm also willing to believe that in that moment of crisis, Pence may have felt the call of duty, and responded honorably. I know, I know, he'd spent four years as Trump's cowardly toady, but a crisis can sometimes bring out the noblest in people. Again, it's impossible for me to know or say.

Of this I am certain, though: Jacob's testimony does not prove that Pence had no reason to mistrust his SS detail apart from his concerns about appearances. Jacob offers that explanation, and I don't doubt that he believes it. But he does not and cannot know the thoughts of the agents, or of Pence himself.

[Cosmocat]

38. It could be both

And SS is chock full of right leaning types like any other LEO. Don't have time to dig it up, but a few were just implicated in some kind of scam.

One consistent w Pence, is he plays both side on this. Not sure why he wouldn't cross the line of doing the dirt on the electors, but he always soft sells how horrible things were.