Awkward question...hope it's not inappropriate, esp. in eyes of POC here.

[cilla4progress]

This is a conversation I've been wanting to have, and DU feels like not only a safe space, but a competent Hive Mind where to pose it.

I am a white woman, 67 yo. I live in rural US, where I migrated from more populous urban and suburban areas.

All my life I have been fortunate to work in communities of color.

I was raised by my liberal parents to appreciate ALL people and cultures.

So, here is my issue: I find, more and more, that I prefer the culture of other ethnicities to my own, white. Music, arts, writing, political views, humor, indigenous spirituality, values - in essentially every way.

Actually, I think White people are the problem (or maybe, more accurate, "western culture" is?). I reject western culture's values - war, violence, vulture capitalism, hypocrisy, worshipping the almighty dollar, genocide, on and on.

How do I keep a perspective on this, without appropriating? I am mindful and sensitive to this. At the same time, my leanings are also authentic to me.

Appreciate any/all feedback!

Thank you!

[wryter2000]

1. I'm in a similar situation

Looking forward to answers.

I'm especially angry that AA musicians don't get the same appreciation as white musicians. I content that Marvin Gaye was at least as good a singer as Frank Sinatra and a gifted musician in many other ways that Sinatra was not. Sure, Marvin Gaye had a great career, but nothing like all the $$ and adulation Sinatra got. And I think you can find that throughout all popular music.

[Cracklin Charlie]

7. They do in my house.

I don’t want to live in a world without Aretha Franklin.

[wryter2000]

23. Talk about someone who could sing

There's a youtube of her performing Nessun Dorma one night when Luciano was sick. She didn't do it the way an opera singer would, but she wowed.

[brooklynite]

8. You can't compare them...

…because they performed at different times, with different competitors for the public’s attention.

[wryter2000]

22. Their careers overlapped quite a bit

They did have different audiences, but that was in part the result of AA's not being appreciated for their talent.

[betsuni]

56. I still don't know why Fred Astaire is considered a great dancer.

I just don't see it. Boring.

Who the hell can beat this:

[cilla4progress]

62. Fabulous-

Thanks!!

[LakeArenal]

2. Oh for Pete's sake reviving the "wypipo" thing.

We lived through the fake Effie Black. You bringing it back?

[cilla4progress]

3. I do not know the history

I will edit - just for you!

OK? Can we move on?

Thanks!

[LakeArenal]

6. I'm sure someone you know on DU can explain.

I thought we had moved on…you brought it back.

[BlackSkimmer]

21. You're objecting, why don't you explain it?

[LakeArenal]

25. Because my phone has no search engine and I don't want to screw up the history

Because someone will parse every word. But I remember you were around. Maybe you can explain it.

[BlackSkimmer]

28. Lol.

Heh.

[Cracklin Charlie]

9. I think wypipo is funny.

I’m white.

[ret5hd]

11. Yeah...me too and me too.

[wryter2000]

24. I'm fine with it.

I woke up the day after Trump was elected and thought "I hate white people." Wypipo would have been a better choice of words.

I'm white. If I don't behave like wypipo, I don't think it applies to me. If I do act like wypipo, I want to be corrected.

[cilla4progress]

64. Well, yep - that could help explain it!

From Vox, 11/7/20:

"In 2016, white voters propelled Trump to the presidency, with 54 percent voting for him and 39 percent voting for Hillary Clinton, according to a 2018 Pew Research Center study. And though the end result might be different in 2020 — exit polls are by no means comprehensive or exact — early evidence shows that white people’s voting patterns look much the same: 57 percent of this group voted to reelect the president while 42 percent voted for Democratic challenger Joe Biden, according to Edison"

11/4/20:

"According to AP VoteCast, Trump won 8 percent of the Black vote, about a 2 percentage-point gain on his 2016 numbers (using the 2016 Cooperative Congressional Election Study, or CCES, a national survey of more than 50,000 confirmed voters, as a point of comparison)."

Native Americans - same:. https://www.hcn.org/articles/indigenous-affairs-how-indigenous-voters-swung-the-2020-election

And Latinx:.https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/latino-vote-analysis-2020-presidential-election

Asian-Americans:.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/asian-americans-voted-biden-63-31-reality-more-complex-n1247171

🤔

[Hekate]

30. It's "sticky," that's for sure. Too bad it came across with so many insults attached.

[LakeArenal]

33. Good for you.

[USALiberal]

59. Self delete, wow!

[Tetrachloride]

4. I watch more foreign films.

I “appropriate” other stuff from time to time , especially when given to me.

I don’t always stay in typical tourist areas when traveling. Due to my hair cut and skin color, I am often mistaken for a certain local social group.

Life is short.

[Cracklin Charlie]

5. I kinda have the same problem.

Plus, I have an authentic southern accent, and grew up eating what many might consider “soul food”, and listening to soul music. Loved it then, love it still. I grew up in a small Mississippi River delta town. It was just my life. My town was lucky…we had black citizens. Our black families had faced many hardships and troubles in our history. And, there were certainly some white folks around that helped cause those troubles. But, in my time, we grew up respectful of all our citizens, or we faced the wrath of our parents or church families. It was never cool to be disrespectful to anyone, of any color, age, or gender.

Sometimes, when I am around black folks that don’t know me, I am afraid they might think I am “appropriating”, when I am really just being true to my raising.

[brooklynite]

10. I've never understood the angst about cultural appropriation...

I’ve lived abroad and traveled extensively and have an appreciation for what other cultures have to offer. Can I not cook Indian food? Collect Native American pottery? Wear British shorts and knee socks? Go surfing?

[ret5hd]

13. I envision you ONLY in British shorts and knee socks.

Funny that.

[brooklynite]

14. I cook Indian, Ethiopian, Moroccan, Chinese, Mexican, Palestinian...

Shall I go on?

[ret5hd]

20. Quite a culinary repertoire in such a limited wardrobe...

but I can see it.

[wryter2000]

26. Can I come to your house for dinner?

Or a cooking lesson?

[Dorian Gray]

45. Cool

I can cook a lot of those things too. But you probably shouldn't open a Moroccan or Ethiopian restaurant and try to make money off your skills.

I mean, you can. And maybe successfully in a place where there aren't a million authentic restaurants. But in Brooklyn, as you know, you'd get laughed out of business.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/a-white-woman-opens-a-chinese-restaurant-in-nyc-the-backlash-is-intense

[Polybius]

52. I know an Egyptian who opened up a pizzeria and it was a success

In Italian heavy Staten Island.

[Dorian Gray]

57. Yeah

Pizza places seem to be there exception. There are numerous Greek Pizza Joints in BK. (Though they usually have some greek dishes. Does he have an Egyptian spin on the menu?)

[Polybius]

51. Since you're in Brooklyn, I certainly hope Italian too

Great food.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

70. I can offer some book titles if you want to actually do the work

as to why cultural appropriation is problematic. Because there are authors of color who have made it pretty clear.

[brooklynite]

71. I don't feel the need to "do the work", which presupposes I have something to learn that I haven't..

If someone wants to make an argument to me, they're welcome to, and I'lll respond accordingly.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

72. If you don't think cultural appropriation is troublesome,

then you do have something to learn.

I'm on summer break from a year of teaching from hell, so I don't feel inclined to teach you anything right now. But some wonderful people of color have written fantastic pieces that can explain to you why appropriation is troublesome. I'd start with White Negros by Lauren Jackson and/or Everything but the Burden edited by Tate. Those will give a good picture as well as other resources you can turn to.

Or just keep acting l like cultural appropriation is no big thing. Though that seems like an unliberal thing to do, but YMMV.

[cilla4progress]

73. What I'm trying to figure out is

when does appreciation become appropriation?

When I worked in Native communities - let's face it, the rez ‐ I was intentional about spending money, buying art in many forms.

I presently shop regularly at a new local store owned by a NA woman who sells products made by local Native creators. I've bought some beautiful hand-beaded earrings and many other items from her. I kinda think they make me look like a wannabe...

This is what I'm struggling to navigate.

Call it white guilt. That's fine. It's just not helpful.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

74. I never called it white guilt.

And I would recommend the same books that I gave in response to the other person. Those do a nice job of indicating what appropriation is and isn't.

[cilla4progress]

75. Thanks.

I wasn't saying or intimating you called it white guilt - sorry for the misunderstanding.

I will definitely take a read!

Thanks!

[BannonsLiver]

12. The way I handle is that I know it's mostly Americans who are the problem.

I don’t buy into the idea that other western countries are as fucked up as we are. Some are, many are not. Exhibit A - Canada- sits to the north of our border.

I’ve had dozens of people I’ve met in other countries tell me they think Americans are fucking crazy. A point I never argue.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. .

So, here is my issue: I find, more and more, that I prefer the culture of other ethnicities to my own, white. Music, arts, writing, political views, humor, indigenous spirituality, values - in essentially every way.

If this is bugging you, then you could spend some time examining *why* these things appeal to you more. And could you give some examples of "political views" and "humor" of other ethnicities that you like better than "white"? And are some of the things that make you ask the question in the first place?

Actually, I think White people are the problem (or maybe, more accurate, "western culture" is?). I reject western culture's values - war, violence, vulture capitalism, hypocrisy, worshipping the almighty dollar, genocide, on and on.

White supremacy is the problem, and it's certainly important to support, foster and enjoy cultural markers and activities that were designed to fight white supremacy. The challenge, as you note, is to ensure you don't colonize those things in your effort to enjoy them.

[cilla4progress]

37. I find Native humor especially funny.

Political views include social justice, environmentalism,

Thank you for the proper vocabulary, WhiskyGrinder: colonize it. How do I appreciate, without colonizing?

Lifelong journey, I suppose. ...

[jimfields33]

16. Considering we are a melting pot, enjoy whatever you want.

Nobody owns anything. If you want to eat certain foods, eat it. If you want to wear different clothes, do it. Have fun and enjoy. There will always be naysayers. Ignore them and go on.

[nolabear]

17. I am happy to appreciate the good in all cultures, including mine.

I’m of mostly British Isles descent, born and raised in the South, largely Gulf Coast Mississippi and in New Orleans. It’s full of conflict but it’s also a huge multicultural gumbo.

It’s easy to forget that people of European descent have a rich cultural heritage too, mainly because of the atrocities we’ve perpetuated to gain and hold power. But like you I revel in the culture I grew up in, which is largely Black influenced, with a mess of Haitian, Cajun, African, Spanish and others thrown in. Though the predominant religion might be Protestant, a whole lot of the culture is Catholic influenced. I’m not too conflicted about picking what I love from that great buffet and leaving what I don’t.

There’s a difference between appropriation and appreciation. Give credit where it’s due, have an open heart, and love what you love, including what you can love about yourself. That’s my two.

[cilla4progress]

38. Gorgeous, nolabear.

So beautiful.

Thank you so much for sharing your view. "There's a difference between appropriation and appreciation."


I treasure it.

[Sympthsical]

18. I think your views are highly problematic

Last edited Mon Jun 20, 2022, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Mainly that you have a kind of romanticized view of other cultures that feels almost colonial in origin. It betrays a lack of experience or knowledge of other cultures, their histories, or even their current circumstances. Using entertainment or the arts to inform sanitized, almost charmingly condescending views of other cultures is deeply, deeply, deeply problematic.

Whenever someone says, "America is the most racist . . . (fill in the blank)," my very first thought is: "This speaker has never spent a significant amount of time outside of this country." And that one vacation to Tuscany doesn't count. Hang around Europe long enough, and you'll hear people say things on the street that would get you or I fired here. Try living in Japan or Korea and not be a native. It's . . . interesting. Also, China says hey.

And that is not touching on wars and historical violence in these places. If only we could be more peaceful like . . . I dunno, the Middle East? Genocide is a white people thing? Rwanda says hey. And Armenians. Right now the Uyghurs are kind of having a time of things.

Do you see how what you just said is so very strange and weird and condescending to non-white histories and cultures?

I think one of the most condescending patronizingly racist things white people manage is with indigenous peoples. The Noble Savage trope is just plain insulting and erases Native voices in favor of an almost Disneyfied understanding of their histories and cultures. Native populations in the Americas had a pretty complex and diverse array of good parts and bad parts. Yet, white people almost treat their history as a drum circle with some drug-induced spirit walking. They're people, not a different kind of Renaissance Faire.

That's not all those peoples were. It dishonors them and their legacies to reduce them to the parts you like.

As far as appropriation, most PoCs do not worry about this. For whatever reason, I somehow ended up being the only white person in my social circle. No one cares what I eat or cook or what music I listen to or what movies I watch. In fact, most people will encourage you to engage in their culture. My Korean friends recommend restaurants or movies. My Filipina mother-in-law(ish) keeps giving me recipes to learn (I am really good at adobo and lumpia now). An ex gives me Chinese history book recommendations after I mentioned to him it's a blind spot in my own education.

This post reminds me of this story that cropped up a few years ago. Basically a white woman somewhere wore a kimono. I think on her instagram. Of course she was accused of appropriation - by other white people. Someone went to Japan and asked about it. The people were delighted. They love it when their culture is exported successfully.

When people in other countries watch our movies, eat our food, dress like us, listen to our music, or learn our language, do we get indignant and say, "You can't do that! That's for Americans!" Of course not. Every culture likes seeing their own culture spread.

As long as something isn't adopted mockingly or condescendingly, there isn't a problem.

Gatekeeping is a terrible impulse intended to keep people separated. It should be highly discouraged. If you find enjoyment in something and you're not doing it to make fun or minimize the people who created it, there isn't a problem.

[SoonerPride]

27. This was a great post. Thank you.

Eloquently stated.

[tishaLA]

31. excellent.

well said.

[cilla4progress]

36. I think I would like to respond to your post, Sympthsical,

because it is most thought-provoking. I will try to do a limited point-by-point response. And thank you for your post!

Mainly that you have a kind of romanticized view of other cultures that feels almost colonial in origin. It betrays a lack of experience or knowledge of other cultures, their histories, or even their current circumstances. Using entertainment or the arts to inform sanitized, almost charmingly condescending views of other cultures is deeply, deeply, deeply problematic.

==============

I worked in Indian Country for 4 years, spending a lot of time on reservations, as well as with tribal members in other communities. I had many, almost daily, personal conversations and experiences with elders and others. I experienced their cultural events and communities. I attended PowWows, spent time in their homes, facilitated their most personal - even intimate - legal needs, worked with other professionals there. I also compiled and read a very extensive library of writing about Native Americans during that time - Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee and many others. This is my personal experience and knowledge.

After college, I spent a year working and living in an inner city AA community as a VISTA volunteer. Granted, that was a long time ago. Where I ended up living, I have almost zero interaction with Black Americans in person.

Currently, I work with many Latinx clients, again, assisting with their very personal legal needs. My Latinx clients are generally better to work with - less entitled, more respectful of the system, strong extended families, than my White clients.

In terms of the arts - I find that I largely listen to HipHop, Soul, R&B. I love the streaming films about the life experience of other communities and ethnicities - to me it's rich and real. I should have been an anthropologist.

I agree this is / can be problematic, which is why I posed the question here.

==================

This came up because we are reading the wonderful book Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer in book group. Because of my time and experience working in tribal communities, I stated that I expect that when western communities are blown away by the climate collapse, indigenous communities will figure out a way to persist. They are survivors. They also have a different - healthier - relationship with the natural world, on the whole (communities and cultures can be distinct from individuals). This is encouraging to me. An entitled white male physician in the group really challenged me on this, with some of the same arguments: "Indians are every bit as genocidal as White people - as the Europeans who were forced to leave their homeland and come to the new world." While I disagree on so many levels, the fact that Native tribes fought wars here amongst each other, I think, is far from the point.

As Robin Wall Kimmerer (member, Potawatomi tribe) describes in her book, there is an indigenous sensibility about the animacy inherent in all life forms. It is the exact opposite of hierarchy; it is reciprocity.

Here is a quote:

"In the Western tradition there is a recognized hierarchy of beings, with, of course, the human being on top—the pinnacle of evolution, the darling of Creation—and the plants at the bottom. But in Native ways of knowing, human people are often referred to as “the younger brothers of Creation.” We say that humans have the least experience with how to live and thus the most to learn—we must look to our teachers among the other species for guidance. Their wisdom is apparent in the way that they live. They teach us by example. They’ve been on the earth far longer than we have been, and have had time to figure things out.”
― Robin Wall Kimmerer, Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants

Here is a link to her tribe's origin story. It speaks far more to me than the ejection from Eden embodied in the Judeo-Christian origin story:

https://www.tweetspeakpoetry.com/2018/12/20/skywoman-falling-reprint-from-braiding-sweetgrass-by-robin-wall-kimmerer/

Well worth the read ...

Thanks again, very much, for helping me think this through! One of my strongest lessons from my work in tribal communities was humility.

[Brenda]

55. First of all...

As the other poster says, it sounds like you are romanticizing non-western cultures. I minored in Anthro in college and there's a whole lot of shit in almost every human culture that mirrors the "bad values" of western cultures.

Secondly, I think the Kimmerer quote conflates "Western tradition" with Christianity and a certain type of Christianity which is hierarchical and based on missionary assimilation.

In terms of the arts - I find that I largely listen to HipHop, Soul, R&B. I love the streaming films about the life experience of other communities and ethnicities - to me it's rich and real. I should have been an anthropologist.

Everyone has their own tastes of the arts but to say Black art is rich and real and White art is not is a pretty ignorant thing unless of course you've listened to all "white" music in the world. Which is ridiculous of course because the only "white" music I can think of would be Nazi music (but then again even Wagner's music is appreciated by many, not just Nazis) or maybe Lawrence Welk type muzak and a lot of country music today.

[cilla4progress]

60. Hmmm...

Thank you for rendering your opinion.

I mean, we all have them, to which we are entitled.

Pro tip: calling out someone else's opinon as "ignorant" and "ridiculous" is a non-helpful starting point for engagement.

[Brenda]

67. I'm pretty sure you know that I

was not attacking you but the notion that there even really is "white" music, except for maybe those I listed with caveats.

I would ALSO call the viewpoint that Black music is not rich or real as having an ignorant view. Maybe I should have used a different word, say uninformed or something. Unless you have heard ALL music there is by ALL artists in that dubious category of color of skin then I don't understand how you can make such broad sweeping statements.

But yes, please enjoy whatever your preferences are.

[cilla4progress]

68. Thank you,

you, as well!

[Sympthsical]

69. I hope my response wasn't unduly harsh

Your OP touched on a lot of different issues that I went full tangent on, and some of my reply was more generally speaking than addressed specifically to you or what you had said.

One thing I want to hit right out of the gate and what I hinted to in my reply is simply this: You don't have defend your own experiences in a discussion of what cultures and forms you enjoy. I think we've reached a place where we feel the need to have "bona fides" to justify why we, as white people, are engaging with cultures not our own. When I made my comment about lack of experience with other cultures, I did so because of the hints and assertions in your OP that European cultures contain flaws and problems that other cultures do not. I have a degree in history, and a lot of my self-education after college was actively trying to fill in gaps in world history that not even college filled in. So I had a visceral reaction to how you characterized things.

One thing about Native cultures is that we have erased so much of it. All we have - all they have - are the barest vestiges that have managed to survive after centuries of erasure. As a result, how we engage in it is very simplified. Just the highlights. At times it feels as if we said, “I love German culture. Oktoberfest is great.” And to be fair, sometimes that is all anyone ever sees of German-Prussian cultures. And it’s awesome to enjoy those things. I just think it’s important to understand that we were only seeing the skin of people. There is quite a bit else in those histories.

For example, you bemoan the terrible parts of European cultures and histories and praise Native cultures. But, the parts are very selective aren’t they? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say, “I love indigenous cultures of the Americas. Do we have a child we can mummify and leave in the mountains? No? Ok, let’s go to the top of the hill and have a BBQ to celebrate all things Aztec and human sacrifice.”

You’re getting that Disney version of events while holding European cultures’ feet to the fire for every transgression. But if you dig even a tiny bit under the surface, there are a lot of horrible things going on in there. Not because it was endemic to that race of people or culture, but because humans do a lot of horrible things no matter where they are. And in condemning white culture, it seemed to require an elevation of that rose-colored assessment of other cultures as a justification. One aspect of colonialism is how Europeans transformed foreign cultures into cartoonish, stereotypical portrayals. They get reduced to novel - and lesser - amusements in comparison to our own importance and consequential weight. I feel we should actively resist that and regard other cultures as our peers, with all the good and bad that entails.

If that makes sense.

One thing I want to highlight is how salient that Kimmerer quote is. I agree with you on the reasoning behind it. One reason I think more people should read the literature, poetry, and music of other cultures is because they often express things differently. So many different languages have words for things English does not, and language often informs the shapes of thinking. There was this intriguing article I read not too long ago about human color perception across cultures. I wish I could find it. Basically, there were cultures centered around the African rain forest that can perceive more shades of green than Westerners. Why are they better at it? Is there a biological difference, some variation in rods and cones and all that? It turns out, it’s not biological. They simply gave more names to different shades of green in their culture. We don’t just have blue. We have azure, cobalt, cerulean, etc. But in studying these cultures, it becomes rapidly apparent that how and what we choose to name informs what we are able to see.

It’s such a profound thing when you think about it.


(This is kind of a non-sequitur, but for whatever reason, I am taking both an anthropology course and a multicultural music course for summer semester at the moment. I love the Blues, and we’ve been doing a deep dive into the differences between Rural vs. Urban. The origins of the form like how Separate But Equal in 1896 eliminated Creole musicians of color from many white orchestras, and that’s how you ended up with clarinets and saxophones in the early evolution of jazz. That kind of thing.

One thing we’ve been studying is blackface and minstrelsy. I’ve read about it over the years, but I never actually sat down and watched it at any length. Al Jolson, the Christy Minstrels, etc. My professor gave us tons of links to YouTube, and I spent hours just watching through it for an assignment. First off, yikes. Reading vs. seeing hours of it with modern sensibilities are a very, very different thing. But also, even though I knew much of this background in a general intellectualized way, it’s very different to do that deep dive and see how it all came together - the good parts and the awful. I’ve loved Nina Simone since I was very young. And if all I ever knew was that her music was beautiful and spoke to me, that would be sufficient to enjoy it. But it’s also good to have the whole story, not just the album cover.)

[Hekate]

42. That is very well set forth. Thank you for these observations.

[Raine]

50. Excellent post

totally agree!

[treestar]

63. well said

I've been struggling to define how I dislike this type of thing, and you've stated it well.

[FakeNoose]

19. I live in a city neighborhood

My neighbors are about 50% black, 50% white. It seems perfectly friendly here and I have no qualms about it. However I grew up in all-white suburban neighborhoods of the 50's and 60's. When the first black family moved in it was a major big deal, but eventually everyone got over it.

I don't know if this is proper advice, but I've found that it doesn't help to get defensive over criticism of "white people's history." Yes there's a lot of negative, racist crap in our history, but there's also good stuff too. I try to be friendly and helpful, respectful of boundaries, and show respect for black (and Asian) culture as well as white. By that I mean reading books, seeing movies and TV shows, appreciation of music, artistic works etc. of other people, not just the white culture. I wouldn't say that I prefer one culture over the other, but I show my enjoyment of the good things in all of them.

[cilla4progress]

39. Nice -

thank you. I love your feedback and appreciate it! Helpful!

[Novara]

58. I also grew up in an area you've described and now live in a diverse city neighborhood

I try to keep in mind that we all share this earth. I am no better than anyone else and no one is better than I am. I am white.

I find I really enjoy my interactions with black folk and I sometimes initially trust them more than white people. Chalk it up to my mom having complications after my birth and me being raised by a black lady for the first year of my life? I dunno. (Mom said she cried when my first word was "Baba" - for Barbara - rather than Mama).

I enjoy my friendships with both white and black people but somehow there's a comfort level I have around black strangers when I first meet them that I don't necessarily have with white strangers, and I don't know why that is.

For me, I try to remember to respect all and to understand that we all share this earth. I hope that translates into action that conveys an attitude of equality and inclusion.

[Hekate]

29. Embrace. Expand. Learn more. Above all, enjoy. However, when it comes to equating all of Western

… values with violence, etc etc, etc, reflect on this: there is no land on this planet that is not soaked in blood and that has not known tyranny.

The men who wrote our founding documents were (as my mother used to say admiringly) Sons of the Enlightenment. But as educated men of their time they were also steeped in European history, which was awash in blood shed in religious wars. They wanted to do better in so many ways. That they and their descendants often faltered or failed does not mean their ideals were wrong, only that we are all humans who need to do better.

We know our own culture’s flaws because we live in it. Other places seem ideal when viewed from a distance. When the deep philosophies of the East made their way into the West for the first time, the cultures that gave them birth were seen only mistily and often idealized by people here. The writings arrived detached from the societies and whatever flaws they had.

Buddhism, in my opinion, is a great gift to us, but the many cultures through which it sojourned over the millenia were as tempestuous as our own today. The First Noble Truth was not conceived in a vacuum, but was an observation of our common human lot.

When I was studying Hindu mythology, one of my classmates wondered passionately how anyone born in India could ever abandon the beauties of Hinduism for Christianity. As dryly as I could, I commented, “Oh, bride burnings, the caste system, things like that.”

My comments were not always well received by my classmates. We were all older grad students, but as far as I could tell I was the only one who was grounded in the study of history and read a major newspaper’s overseas columns. I have always tried to see history plus literature plus religion plus culture plus…

[MineralMan]

32. What I've learned in 77 years is that people are different.

No two alike, really. So, I go on my way liking what and who I like and ignoring what and who I don't care for. Not all white people are creeps. Not all POCs are wonderful people. It's like that wherever I look. So, I have to look beyond the obvious identifiers and look at individuals instead.

There is no universal "culture" that applies to everyone of a certain ethnicity. There is almost nothing you can ever say that applies to everyone, including yourself.

The things you listed as typifying "western culture" are not at all universal in western culture. Not even close. So I look for people who share my views and avoid those who do not. I like the music I like, the movies I think are good, the books I enjoy, and much more, based on those things on their own, rather than assigning them to some "culture."

Look at individuals, rather than the external characteristics of people, and you'll find people you enjoy all around you. You'll also see a lot of people you don't enjoy and don't want to associate with. Don't associate with the second group. Stick to associations with people whose realities and preferences work well with your own.

You don't have to do one or the other. You can enjoy things broadly, if you just pay attention to people's behavior rather than their external characteristics.

[mopinko]

34. i remember this discussion from art school.

had a prof that lamented that there wasnt a coherent american style of painting or art.
being in chi, we had a completely different thing going on when the abstract movement was going on on both coasts. we had the imagists, figure painters.
he was a clay prof. made huge vessels in classic forms. thought that was how to do it.

my response was that that WAS american culture. a patchwork quilt, a gumbo, a kaleidoscope.

i think the key is- if you understand and respect the cultural significance, and do not violate or ignore that, you're probably good. if you make a war bonnet out of flamingo feathers, you're doing it wrong.

[EX500rider]

35. "western culture's values - war, violence, vulture capitalism, hypocrisy, worshipping the almighty$"

How are those "western culture's values"?

War, a worldwide issue.
Here's a map of current conflict's:


hardly seems "White" or "Western" centric.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Violence?
lists of homicide rates by country:
Again, hardly seems Western centric
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

vulture capitalism, hypocrisy, worshipping the almighty $?
Also universal traits

[betsuni]

40. I was just thinking that you should consider yourself an anthropologist and

not think about it too much.

[LuckyCharms]

41. I think your questions are honest, sincere, and appropriate.

And I hope you are not feeling like you have to walk on eggshells in order to present your questions.

[cilla4progress]

43. Wow - thank you!

Most of all, I think these are conversations we NEED to have. How are we ever going to achieve greater understanding, otherwise?

It exposes one to criticism, as can be seen in this thread. This is the "vulnerability" we hear talked about in today's common pop-psychology parlance. We have to be willing to be challenged.

Good to know that some here see through to my heart. I'm far from flawless, but I am not intentionally trying to be hurtful or condescending. In fact, just the opposite,, and why I posed the question and described it as awkward.

Thanks for seeing me with all my flaws, Lucky!

[MissMillie]

44. asking the questions and having the conversations...

that's how divisions heal

[Dorian Gray]

46. My advice?

Enjoy what you enjoy and don't try to pass yourself off as something you aren't.

The end.

[cilla4progress]

47. I am so grateful for ALL the replies here!

I clearly came to the right place with my question!

One more observation, in line with those above, I think:

If something makes you a better person - kinder, more accepting, more aware, more humble, happier!, then you know it is good.

👍🏾👍🏾

Thank you all my friends.

[Bluesaph]

48. I have the same struggle.

I’m Costa Rican but married to a white man and have a son with him. I have daughters who married a white, Hispanic and black-Asian men. I have grandchildren who are all these races.

The least favorite of all the cultures brought into our family is the white culture (or lack thereof). It’s almost like a culture of having no culture other than “Christianity”, celebrate holidays and basically whiteness. My son in law told me he wants me to give his kids the gift of my culture because “he has none”!

My husband loves my Hispanic culture but he does feel like we have some of what he calls “reverse prejudice” in our country right now. If you have a good job and get paid good money people assume it’s because you’re a white man. That’s what he says it feels like.

I remind him of how if you are black or Hispanic and get into a good college it’s assumed you were given a free education because of the color of your skin.

My family in CR ask me what is wrong with Americans.

[cilla4progress]

49. Wow - thanks, Bluesaph,

for your valuable sharing!

This quote in your post made me think we are kindred spirits, at least in our thinking!

"The least favorite of all the cultures brought into our family is the white culture (or lack thereof). It’s almost like a culture of having no culture other than “Christianity”, celebrate holidays and basically whiteness."

How fortunate you are to have a multi-cultural family!!

[betsuni]

53. White Americans thinking they have no culture, why many have identity problems.

Searching for something.

[Bluesaph]

76. Culture of being white

Wearing Stars and Stripes.
Thin blue line crap.
Overly nationalistic.
Confederate flags in some circles.
Hot dogs.
Being loud, rude and obnoxious.

I can see why many white people would rather say they have no culture. The loudest among us ruins it for everyone else.

The white men in my family aren’t proud of the list above. So they adopted aspects of the other cultures in our rainbow family.

[cilla4progress]

78. Cool...

also did you see my post above (reply 64) about voting statistics by ethnicity?

Most white people (I didn't break it down by gender) supported loser 45. Other ethnicities - nope.

[Bluesaph]

79. Maybe we have a better bullshit meter?

Joke

[Brenda]

54. How can you tell if

"music, arts, writing, political views, humor, values" are from a non-white or non-western person?

Can you always look at a painting and accurately identify the artist's race or ethnicity?
Do you think all white people are monolithic in their expression of those things?

Seems you have a lack of understanding of the diversity of "white" expressions in all of those things.

[cilla4progress]

61. It's a preference, Brenda,

not an "always" thing. See OP.

Pretty easy to source art, music, authorship, political views...

[Brenda]

65. Yeah, I'm aware of sourcing.

Do you literally look up what race or ethnicity the artist is before you decide if it's what you like? Otherwise, how do you know? (Other than the obvious examples.)

I understand what preferences are and said so. But you are describing your preference in terms that automatically denigrate so-called "white" things. I'm not attacking your preferences. I'm saying that you are making assumptions about entire groups of people which is clearly not accurate and just as encouraging for stereotypes as racism can be.

[cilla4progress]

66. I also distinguished cultures from

individuals.

Not like I haven't thought this through.

I appreciate the many enlightening comments here.

Thanks for playing.

[SYFROYH]

77. I too think you're romanticizing too much, but embracing the best parts of other cultures is fine

One has to be careful about appropriation, but that's a different issue.