"Not in it to win it" writer finally saying what all of us on DU know.

[Baitball Blogger]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Spazito (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Christians have forgotten how to be Christians. But they're filtering all their grievances through politics. And it doesn't serve the church, because they're prioritizing their politics over their faith.

[Dave in VA]

1. They have replaced Jesus Christ

with the movie version of John Wayne.

[catbyte]

22. Yep.

[brooklynite]

2. I'm an atheist, but no, I don't accept this assertion

Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians are not the universe of Christianity.

[comradebillyboy]

6. Right, there's also the extremely reactionary and

backwards looking Roman Catholic Church giving the fundies a run for their money.

[karynnj]

9. As hiearchial as it is, the individual Catholic churches are not all the same.

A daughter worked at a Dorothy Day inspired community services program which espically helped women led South side of Chicago families. Their values were easier to connect to words ascribed to Jesus. In addition, the Jesuit Holy Cross services where she was an undergrad were much more liberal than the Catholic church I knew from northern Indiana.

Many of 5he most Democratic states have high percent Catholic populations, especially Maryland and Rhode Island.

[comradebillyboy]

14. The American Cardinals are as bad as the leading

evangelical grifters. No doubt many individual churches do good work but the American Catholic leadership is terrible.

I am an ex-Catholic.

[Rebl2]

30. Yes they are

[Baitball Blogger]

65. Not all Catholic schools are the same, for sure.

My in-law ex Catholic school teacher is a MAGA Supreme in her beliefs.

[Demsrule86]

15. There are liberal Christian churches like Episcopaleans of which I am a member...we do many good

works...I tire of some who paint all Christians as the same as Evangelicals...it is not true. When my Gay daughter decides to marry, the priest (we call them that) will marry her and her fiancee just like any other couple.

[BlackSkimmer]

64. This, thank you.

I'm not a member of any religion, but this broad brush of Christians would not be allowed here if it was said of any other religion.

[plimsoll]

8. You may be technically correct

But the groups at odds with those two flavors have usually been silent. So effectively they represent Protestant Christianity and some variant seems dominant in the American Catholic cardinals.

So consider who owns the trademark today, because that seems to be all the deeper most people will look.

[Mr. Steve]

11. Me too,

Me too, and I agree but with the addition of Catholic hierarchy.

[intheflow]

3. Matthew 6:24

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

A direct quote from Jesus' sermon on the mount. Conservative Christians love their church and they hate the government, but they use their faith to justify their entry into politics. This is the same sermon where Jesus said,

"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

But who needs to read that liberal commie Matthew's account, anyway? Amirite?

[mnhtnbb]

36. I have a Republican fundie neighbor

who signs her emails

"Gladly serving the Lord"

I'm tempted to respond with that quote about practicing righteousness to her next email!

[LT Barclay]

38. I'm evangelical and and environmentalist. Many I know hate the environmentalist label, but I won't

back down from it. My wife tried to tell someone once I am an conservationist, but I said no environmentalist. Anyway, they will attack environmentalists saying that many of them worship the trees.
Next time I hear that I'm going to say I've worked in the environmental field and I've met fewer environmentalists who worship nature than I have Christians who worship money.

[Johnny2X2X]

4. I like best the Christians who reject the teachings of the Bible

The Bible compels Christians to commit all sorts of evil, most of it is rejected. The more of the Bible Christians reject, the better people they generally are.

[Demsrule86]

16. That is completely untrue. The new testament is where Christianity is found...not the

old Testament which is basically the history of the Jewish people with some other goodies thrown in. The new testament is about loving your neighbor as yourself. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That is where the gospel is found...I personally don't care for Paul. He was not an original apostle and did not walk with Jesus. As for you like Christians who reject the bible...no such thing. There is no such thing. The new testament is the basis for Christianity...either you believe it or you don't. If you don't than you may be a good person and most are, but you are not a Christian.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

25. None of the New Testament is written by people that "walked with Jesus."

And the old testament makes the new testament possible; it isn't removed because of Jesus.

[Johnny2X2X]

33. Picking and choosing still

Jesus's teaching weren't all sunshine and rainbows either. Didn't speak out against slavery, said plenty of questionable things about women. Said plenty of terrible things about war, promoted men castrating themselves, child killing etc etc. The New Testament is still subject to people picking and choosing the warm and fuzzy parts while ignoring the vile and evil parts.

The New testament still requires plenty of twisting and turning and pretending to explain away all sorts of horrors that came out of Jesus's mouth. When he said, "I will kill her children with death" he didn't really mean it... How does anyone know that?

So yes, you have to reject much of what Jesus said to be a good person. You have to ignore the parts where he advocated torturing people, but accept the parts where he says be generous to your neighbors.

And I don't see many of his "followers" drinking poison and handling snakes like he explicitly prescribed you to do if you were his "true followers." Whenever it turns to the evil crap Jesus preached, people resort to, "oh, he was just being figurative and speaking in parables with that child killing stuff..." Well, maybe he was speaking figuratively when he you should "take care of your neighbors", who are you to say? And yes, I am aware of the great lengths that Christian historians have gone through to explain away the parts of Jesus's words that don't jibe with modern society, they kind of had a monopoly on writing about history for centuries and centuries so it's no wonder they built it around their little fantasies.

[Demsrule86]

43. I have read the new testament several times and it is about love of one's fellow man and

Christ's journey. The old testament is still in the bible...but the basis for Christianity is found in the new testament. I suggest you add examples instead of your blanket condemnation. I will follow my faith and you do not need to concern yourself with such things as clearly you don't believe in it. And I respect that. But you don't have the right to condemn those who do not agree with you. That is no different than what the Evangelicals do...they condemn those of different faiths, Jews and Atheists as well. This is America and at least for now, we can believe as we choose.

[Johnny2X2X]

48. I'll concern myself with what I choose to

Christianity is a terrible and evil religion in my eyes, and it's spread pain and suffering to the 4 corners of the earth. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, but we're not going to silence each other.

Hating families:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

He encouraged men to castrate themselves.
There are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12

He accepted Old Testament laws.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

He was a warmonger.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53

He threatens to kill children (with death).
I will kill her children with death. Revelation 2:23

New Testament, Old Testament, it's still people deciding which parts to accept and which parts to reject. That's my point. Not telling anyone what they should choose to believe in, just revealing that they're in fact picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they want to believe in.

[ShazzieB]

52. I think you're getting some things mixed up.

If you think Jesus "prescribed" that people handle snakes or take poison, you really need to work on your reading comprehension.

The bit about killing children that you quoted is not something Jesus said. It's from Revelation, which is a convoluted piece of prophecy that was never meant to be taken literally (althiugh many unfortunately have)

Jesus never promoted men castrating themselves. I could go on and on. The point is, you're doing exactly what SOME Christians do, which is to pull a bit from here and a bit from there and patchwork it together to support whatever point you want to male. That's not valid when anybody does it.

But that's okay, because this is DU, where anti-religious bigotry is the one form of bigotry that's always acceptable, event though the rules say otherwise. 🙄

Not all of us agree, but that doesn’t matter, because if we don't, we're just stupid and deluded, so what we think has no value, right?

Believe me, we know what you think of us.and I say "us," because while I don't currently belong to any church, there are several denominations I admire greatly. I feel much more kinship with people in the liberal and progressive churches than those who don't even seem to be able to tell the difference between one branch of Christianity and another. And I am getting SO tired of reading stuff like this here at DU.

The rules say this:

Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.

DU wants to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all, even people with *gasp* religious beliefs. It's really a shame that not all of its members support that goal.

[Johnny2X2X]

53. I welcome it just fine.

Believe what you wish, you're the one telling me what I can and cannot be concerned with.

How about this dandy:
He that is not with me is against me. Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:230

Seems like that beauty got over 1 million Iraqis killed.

[ShazzieB]

57. I am NOT telling you what you can and cannot be "concerned with."

I couldn't care less what you are "concerned with," nor am I interested in arguing the meaning of scriptural passages with you or anyone else. I never should have commented on that, because it's beside the point.

What I am "concerned with" is people with anti-religious attitudes creating a hostile atmosphere here at DU for those who have the temerity not to share them. I object to that, because I find it to be antithetical to DU's stated aim of promoting "a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members," including people with any kind of religious beliefs (sor lack thereof).

I respect everyone's right to their beliefs (or the lack thereof). I just wish EVERYONE here would extend the same courtesy to everyone else.

[Johnny2X2X]

59. What is this then?

"I will follow my faith and you do not need to concern yourself with such things as clearly you don't believe in it."

I frankly don't care if you think me using Jesus's actual words from the bible makes you feel unwelcome. We're having a discussion, you're entitled to your beliefs and to express them here, and so am I.

I respect your beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to refrain from challenging them.

[ShazzieB]

67. I don't recognize that quote.

Nope, don't recognize it.

If you actually do respect other people's beliefs, that's good. If you don't, that's your prerorogative. What I care about is people's behavior toward each other, and how it affects the atmosphere here at DU. Disagreeing is fine.

Agreeing to disagree is even better, imo.

[OneBro]

51. Jimmy Carter and Paula White are both evangelicals.

Given the number of sects and off-shoots within the already varied denominations, the many Bible versions and the thousands of interpretations, re-interpretations and revisions of its texts, the Bible has become a buffet to be cherry-picked at-will. When “Christian’s” need to justify their visceral hate of homosexuals, for example, they engorge themselves on the Old Testament.

I’ve read the whole KJ Bible several times but I prefer Greek mythology, and I know right from wrong without guidance from Moses, Jesus, Vishnu, Zeus, or Russell’s almighty teapot.

Anyway, here is an article on Jesus’ affirmation of the Old Testament. All may freely cherry-pick and re-interpret to their heart’s desire.

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesus-did-not-soften-the-old-testament-in-fact-he-did-the-opposite-and-heres-what-that-means/

[Bettie]

58. First: modern Christianity is built about Paul,

not the others and certainly not the "red words".

Second, white evangelicalism is a racist, homophobic, and sexist movement. It is all about tearing others down.

It may not have started that way, but it is the way most of that type of churches operate today.

[BlueIdaho]

5. Today's Christians

Have rejected the teachings of Christ and replaced them with Mein Kampf.

[Demsrule86]

20. That is true...not Christians at all but fascists.

[BlueIdaho]

21. Vengeful, mean spirited, and violent

Fascists.

[getagrip_already]

10. the "church" created this mess, and they will be devoured by it....

Christianity has always been about raw, abject power - of the church.

It's still about raw, abject power, but the church is being replaced by the politician. The followers have changed their allegiance to the new prophets.

The circle is now complete. The student has become the master. But both were always evil.

[keithbvadu2]

47. Religion and politics use each other to gain power and wealth.

[Ocelot II]

12. The evangelicals - don't tar all Christians with the same brush - have given up

traditional Christian doctrine in favor of right-wing political doctrine; you might say they are apostates or heretics. They've discovered, or at least believe, that politics can give them the power to make everybody be like them. Why do they want that? Because there is a particular arrogance in that strain of Christianity which causes believers to assume that the only true, Godly way to live is their way, and that unless you are like them you are not Godly. That leads to the conclusion that those who are not Godly must either be converted or, if that's not possible, eliminated, because ungodly elements must not infect America, the only country approved by God. So everyone who's not like them - white, straight, conservative, evangelical Christian - and can't be made to be like them, has to go. This mentality is what justifies laws biased against PoC, gay people, most recently trans people, women who can't be made to reproduce, liberals, non-white immigrants, Jews, Muslims, etc., etc. If the laws don't eliminate or crush those populations, violence against them is just fine.

None of this is justified by the teachings of Jesus, in whose name they pretend to act, but Jesus doesn't figure into the analysis at all. The f*ckers just want to get rid of us so they can run things. It's nothing but a power trip thinly disguised as religion.

[Evolve Dammit]

18. That sounds spot on from my observations.

[paulkienitz]

13. racists and fascists always lie, including about what their faith is

Last edited Thu Jun 23, 2022, 08:52 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm becoming convinced that today's fundamentalist evangelical christianity is not based on the bible, but on some combination of christian dominionism and white supremacism. They're defined not by their faith in Christ but by their intolerance of people unlike themselves. Their biblical literalism is a shibboleth for identifying who to reject. They insist on young earth beliefs and deny evolution because that excludes people who would allow science to tell them that other people are as good as they are. They aren't fascist to support their christianity, they're christian to support their fascism.

Lots of americans are christian in lots of ways, but I'm getting the strong impression that evangelical fundamentalism is a near 100% surrogate for racist fascism.

[LymphocyteLover]

17. ultimately it's all about white supremacy and not wanting to live in a pluralistic society

[Baitball Blogger]

24. +1

[IronLionZion]

19. Biden, Obama, and Carter are good Christians

while Trump is a con man grifter who worships money as his God.

People who enjoy old testament smiting and wrath like how Trump inflicts pain and punishment on people they don't like.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

23. We could stop acting like this is new. It goes back to the 17th century and before.

The Pilgrims came here because they didn't like the loosey-goosey views in Europe at the time and wanted things to be more strict. So they came here and did just that, killed a lot of natives, killed a lot of people of other religions, and lived their crazy repressed lives.

But, yeah, conservative Christians now are somehow different. Please. Read some Jonathan Edwards sermons and tell me how loving early American Christians were.

[Baitball Blogger]

26. Not to mention, that those who subscribe to their Anglo heritage would do well

to research why their forefathers left their theocratic birth nations to start a new country that believed in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness because all men are created equally.

[jaxexpat]

27. Being a Christian is hard. Being an ignorant bigot is easy and more fulfilling in the short term.

It's always easier wave the traffic on in the direction its going.

[patphil]

28. They have forgotten the true reason for the separation of Church and State.

As Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". They are meant to be separate so we can put the proper emphasis on each.
The Republicans are focused on things that matter very little, and are totally ignoring the things that are most important.

Our physical lives are "but a moment's Sunlight, fading in the grass". Our spiritual lives are forever.

[phylny]

29. I am Christian

and am frankly tired of this. I'm certainly not part of "all of us" on DU who "know" this.

[Baitball Blogger]

34. I am a Christian too. And the way that American Anglo conservative Christians practice

their religion is an abomination. Christianity means self-sacrifice and I see nothing of that nature in the way they behave.

[phylny]

35. I agree.

I am simply tired of the bashing of all Christians. I am a progressive, liberal, Christian Democrat.

[Demsrule86]

44. Exactly right. And it is not fair to judge all Christians based on the false rantings of the corrupt

Evangelical movement.

[plimsoll]

37. Then you and all the other Christians who are tired of it should do something about it.

I've been watching this for 42 years now. You could spot the phony in the moral majority from day one, but that was allowed to slide in silence. I get that you're tired of it, but what has actually been done to stop this tide.

So let's take the John Stuart Mill approach:

Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.

I feel a great deal of sympathy for Christians who have had the name of their faith hijacked by bad men, but it is within their power to change the perception. They've had since the Reagan revolution to show that this evangelical and fundamentalist view was not representative of Christianity, but very little pushback seems to occur. Maybe it's quiet, but from the outside it looks like silence is assent.

[phylny]

41. Where have we heard this before.

How is this different than saying "other religions" or "President Obama" should "condemn" radical religious violence and we at DU are enraged - rightly SO! - when this is uttered.

https://democraticunderground.com/10022748782

*I* give money and food to the poor.

*I* support my LBGTQ brethren.

*I* give my money to progressive candidates and causes.

Please don't tell me what I need to do.

[plimsoll]

50. Then you'll have to accept the criticism of Christians.

You may not like it, but they act in your name. I do all those things too, but I couldn't get my community to say that the religious right was not practicing a theology of hate. I felt that I couldn't maintain that label and not stand against it.

I'm sorry you think it's like saying, "'other religions' or 'President Obama' should 'condemn' radical religious violence," maybe the problem isn't you but a large enough percentage of those around you. On the other hand when these issues are raised you attack those who raise them, isn't this a tacit endorsement of the religious rights views?

[phylny]

60. No,

and I’m amazed you even went there.

[Demsrule86]

49. Oh please that is such BS...there are plenty of Christians who go against Evangelicals...and

let me add, that I know some Evangelical churches and members that did not support Trump.

[plimsoll]

55. Whenever I suggest that liberal Christians bear some responsibility

For the usurpation of the title "Christian" by the religious right, liberal Christians go out of their way to tell me I'm wrong. I'm suggesting that you, not me, could have pushed back harder. I gave up, so I own that I didn't do as much as I might have. If you can tell me that you've done everything in your collective power to change the storyline of the religious right being the real Christians I'll shut up.

But honestly, it feels like you would rather tell me I'm wrong and let sleeping dogs lie. That's probably a carry over emotion, but it always feels like special pleading. There are liberal christians that push back, the Reverend Barber is a great example, but the volume from liberal Christianity collectively seems set to a 1 and the religious right has theirs turned up to 11.

[Seinan Sensei]

31. Roaring river

There is a roaring river of Christian community that prioritizes faith over politics.
Why they get so little attention from MSM, I'll never know.
Theirs is an honest and realistic Christianity.

Two examples:

1) Christian Community Development Association
Go to their meeting in November (Charotte NC)
Look-up CCDA Board of Directors
Read CCD recommended books

2) Sojourners Community in Washington DC
See them online

[Grammy23]

32. I grew up attending church -- faithfully.

I also happened to live in Jackson, Mississippi during the Civil Rights Era. I was a kid when Medgar Evers was killed and segregation was being challenged. My family (especially my father) was very liberal in their politics and were Democrats. So I kept my mouth shut about a lot of things to avoid outing myself as such.

Looking back, I think the seeds that led to the unraveling of my long held religious views (instilled since birth— mainly because of my mom) happened in a Presbyterian church I attended — Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, studying catechism and joining the church at about age 12 — one Sunday when demonstrations and marches were happening, a special meeting after the Sunday morning service took place. It seems that groups of AA and civil rights workers were showing up at various churches (all white) to attend services. They were not disruptive in any way, but were there to test the waters so to speak.

One of the deacons stood up to ask what should happen if any of the “Negroes” showed up at our church. It was agreed that they would not be seated and the doors would be locked if necessary. I sat there in the pew, wide eyed and afraid. I knew what they were saying was wrong and conflicted with anything taught in the Bible. But everyone there (except me) agreed to their plan.

So it was probably on that day that my faith started eroding under my feet. As time moved on and I read more and THOUGHT more it became clear to me that it no longer made sense. All the silly rules and beliefs were just too hard to accept any more. I finally figured out that while some of the things taught were good (Do unto others as you’d have done unto you) I didn’t need a church or religion to live by that rule. And LOTS of other religions teach some version of that rule. So maybe it is just a rule to live by as a human being — no matter what your faith (or lack of faith) happens to be.

[Duncan Grant]

62. Your post resonates deeply.

Thank you for retelling this story. First person accounts are so valuable.

When I asked “authorities” about the violence and hatred directed toward gay men, I was told not to engage in blasphemy. As you might expect, I found that an unacceptable defense. My interpretation of Christ’s ministry was that it’s a living subversive awakening (aka: good trouble). They didn’t agree.

Consequently, I found the church required my stultifying conformity and intellectual arrest. I can’t live in a box that small. Lastly, the control mechanism of blasphemy? It’s a hideous tool and a terrible abuse of power (deployed by pathetic people), imho.

[onecaliberal]

39. They are the people who killed Jesus.

[kimbutgar]

40. I would be embarrassed to say I am a Christian based on today's Republican Christian cult party

Don’t want to be associated with that name or group.

Now I’ll say I follow the New Testament and follow the words of Jesus. The party of Jesus.

[Model35mech]

42. The path of religious policy/opinion has tracked power for over a millenium

The 2000 year old notion that man can't serve God and Mammon died about 1995 years ago.

The Protestant movement has been constantly working to make policy fit the needs and desires of protestant denominations since Luther. Sometimes that conservative leverage, and sometimes its liberal, and sometimes it's just because it's necessary not to be out of step with political power.

It's really not a joke, but religious opinion and policy is clearly as pliable as a handful of warmed plasticine clay.

[Caliman73]

45. Did they ever know how?

I am not saying this to slam all people who profess to be Christians. If you look at the history of the early church, how the bible was put together, and the various Christian churches throughout history, it becomes pretty obvious that there was never a time when Christians knew how to be Christians. Either that or maybe, there is no WAY to be a Christian because it was all created by men and subject to any interpretation you wanted to give it. Almost every Christian thinks that they are following the teachings, no matter how other Christian groups may object or act in radically different ways.

It is almost like the whole idea doesn't really add up.

[vlyons]

46. Christian Church is just doing what it's always done

for 2000 years, waging war on non- Christian nations to steal their land and resources. Intolerant toward non-Christians and different Christian denominations. Murder, torture, brainwashing. Not a peaceful history.

and BTW -- there is no creator god, no virgin birth, no resurrection, no heaven, no hell.

[ShazzieB]

54. And you are welcome to believe or not believe as you choose.

As are we all:

Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.

See the last line there?

"We [i.e., DU] want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry."

How nice would it be if every DU member were to fully embrace that principle? Pretty damned nice, if you ask me.

[keithbvadu2]

56. Policies

[Baitball Blogger]

61. +1

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. What is "Not in it to win it"? Who is its writer? and what did they say?

Since your post is purely a broadbrush criticism of Christians, shouldn't this be in the Religion group?

And I don't think you've addressed the criticism of you attacking all Christians, including, for instance, President Joe Biden. I hope this "writer" has some nuance in whatever they said, whenever it was. If it's as careless as the OP, it's useless.

[Skittles]

66. lol, when have they ever truly been christians

for example, why are blood banks constantly having to beg for blood? that should be a no-brainer for a "christian" - people will make time to go to church but donate blood? Most of them never do.

[Spazito]

68. *LOCKING*

Host consensus is this OP doesn't meet the criteria in the SOP for this forum:

Threads about the existence/non-existence of God, threads discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of religion in general, and threads discussing the truth/untruth of religious dogma are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted under Religion.