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Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:42 AM

All Hillary Basher's can celebrate today

Watching the Supreme Court that should not exist (these justices I mean) completely annihilate this country in every way.

153 replies, 6510 views

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Reply All Hillary Basher's can celebrate today (Original post)
Eliot Rosewater Thursday OP
Scrivener7 Thursday #1
spooky3 Thursday #8
Chin music Thursday #57
iluvtennis Thursday #64
GoodRaisin Thursday #74
treestar Friday #135
wryter2000 Thursday #2
peggysue2 Thursday #3
JohnSJ Thursday #4
Wednesdays Thursday #5
inthewind21 Thursday #6
Eliot Rosewater Thursday #7
mopinko Thursday #9
LoisB Thursday #11
betsuni Thursday #17
Nixie Thursday #20
JustAnotherGen Thursday #34
Aroundabout23 Thursday #47
mcar Friday #97
Paladin Friday #113
Meowmee Friday #133
Act_of_Reparation Saturday #148
Patton French Thursday #56
Samrob Thursday #63
W_HAMILTON Thursday #75
Cha Thursday #82
honest.abe Friday #107
LetMyPeopleVote Thursday #10
moniss Thursday #15
JustAnotherGen Thursday #36
rogue emissary Friday #129
Samrob Friday #102
MineralMan Thursday #12
usaf-vet Thursday #32
Ford_Prefect Thursday #62
RANDYWILDMAN Thursday #71
Ford_Prefect Thursday #72
Demsrule86 Saturday #138
betsuni Saturday #140
certainot Thursday #51
betsuni Thursday #52
certainot Thursday #61
roscoeroscoe Thursday #59
comradebillyboy Thursday #13
housecat Thursday #31
Hortensis Thursday #14
JustAnotherGen Thursday #38
Hortensis Thursday #43
yardwork Friday #91
Hortensis Friday #98
betsuni Friday #99
Name removed Friday #105
Nixie Thursday #16
Eliot Rosewater Thursday #23
Cuthbert Allgood Friday #111
Nixie Friday #115
Cuthbert Allgood Friday #117
Nixie Friday #119
Willto Saturday #149
Cuthbert Allgood Yesterday #150
Nixie Yesterday #151
Willto Yesterday #153
inthewind21 Friday #116
Hortensis Friday #121
Demsrule86 Saturday #139
Sympthsical Thursday #18
Eliot Rosewater Thursday #24
Sympthsical Thursday #54
Meowmee Friday #134
Peacetrain Thursday #19
demigoddess Thursday #21
getagrip_already Thursday #26
Chin music Thursday #60
Magoo48 Thursday #35
TwilightZone Thursday #42
DURHAM D Thursday #50
betsuni Thursday #55
Just A Box Of Rain Thursday #70
yardwork Friday #92
betsuni Thursday #22
Eliot Rosewater Thursday #25
Hekate Thursday #46
betsuni Thursday #48
Hortensis Friday #101
867-5309. Thursday #27
Eliot Rosewater Thursday #28
867-5309. Thursday #30
betsuni Thursday #29
867-5309. Thursday #33
betsuni Thursday #45
867-5309. Thursday #67
betsuni Thursday #69
quakerboy Thursday #37
Mr. Evil Thursday #39
edhopper Thursday #40
usonian Thursday #41
Martin Eden Thursday #44
Justice matters. Thursday #49
xocetaceans Thursday #53
Wednesdays Thursday #77
Skittles Thursday #81
xocetaceans Thursday #83
Skittles Thursday #84
xocetaceans Thursday #85
MrsCoffee Friday #88
betsuni Friday #89
Nixie Friday #114
Scrivener7 Saturday #136
xocetaceans Saturday #143
yardwork Friday #93
betsuni Friday #95
mcar Friday #100
Emile Friday #104
mcar Friday #127
Torchlight Friday #120
PatrickforB Thursday #58
betsuni Thursday #65
867-5309. Thursday #66
betsuni Thursday #68
PatrickforB Thursday #78
867-5309. Friday #86
PatrickforB Friday #122
PatrickforB Thursday #73
kcr Thursday #79
yardwork Friday #94
PatrickforB Friday #123
ArnoldLayne Thursday #76
Skittles Thursday #80
betsuni Friday #87
Hav Friday #90
mcar Friday #96
JI7 Friday #103
dalton99a Friday #106
LetMyPeopleVote Friday #108
honest.abe Friday #109
Eliot Rosewater Friday #124
Nixie Friday #128
LetMyPeopleVote Friday #110
dalton99a Friday #112
Jason1961 Friday #118
Emile Friday #125
LetMyPeopleVote Friday #126
Kaleva Friday #130
Eliot Rosewater Friday #131
Kaleva Friday #132
betsuni Saturday #137
Demsrule86 Saturday #141
betsuni Saturday #142
Kaleva Saturday #147
betsuni Saturday #144
Hav Saturday #145
betsuni Saturday #146
MrsCoffee Yesterday #152

Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:44 AM

1. I don't know about you, but she's more "exciting" than ever to me today.

Wonder how those who "just weren't excited" enough by her to vote for her feel today.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:52 AM

8. +1

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:41 PM

64. +3.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 04:17 PM

74. But, but...but her emails

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:59 PM

135. +1

So much for excitement. How about day to day life?

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:45 AM

2. Just wait a minute

Roe goes next

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:45 AM

3. x1000

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:47 AM

4. +++

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:47 AM

5. This thread serves no constructive purpose.

And I have always supported Hillary.

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:49 AM

6. You're free

avoid, as well as to not comment on a post you think serves no constructive purpose.

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #6)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:51 AM

7. Thank you

And if I may say so this thread serves a very important fucking goddamn purpose, it’s s to hopefully convince those fucking people to wake the fuck up and stop bashing Democrats because they’re still doing it.

Thank you again for your post.

Oh and PS, instead of “you’re right those of us who bashed her were wrong and we apologize “you never see that do you, do we?

I haven’t seen it once. I keep hinting to Randi Rhodes that she might want to apologize, but clueless.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:53 AM

9. this right here.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:03 PM

11. Hear, hear!

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:22 PM

17. +1

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:24 PM

20. +1000, I've been waiting for the apology tour, as well.

Thank you.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:09 PM

34. Amen

We are good, they are evil - that's all I have time for.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:32 PM

47. This.

 

Soooo fucking much this.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:19 AM

97. Well said!

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:48 AM

113. X 1000. Thank you. (nt)

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:47 PM

133. Yep, they will never apologize or admit what they did though

The majority. Narcissists.

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 04:45 PM

148. We're also free to comment on it.

But thanks for the heads up bruh.

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:08 PM

56. It serves no constructive purpose to ignore that which contributed to what we have. NT

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:41 PM

63. The purpose reminds people. Lest we forget! nt

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 04:55 PM

75. It most certainly does.

Never forget.

And never let it happen again.

It happened in 2000 and it happened in 2016: our so-called allies on the left shitting on the Democratic candidate and thus directly leading some of the most disastrous presidencies (Republican, of course) in our nation's history. A few hundred votes in one state in 2000 and less than 100,000 votes spread over three states in 2016.

I, personally, will stop calling out the assholes that led to these election outcomes when we stop having to endure the terrible legacies we are all now burdened with because of them. So, I'm guessing you can check back with me in a couple of decades, at the earliest...

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 07:19 PM

82. Yeah, it does.. it's called

VENTING! over an Impossible GD Situation!

💙💛


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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:22 AM

107. Except perhaps remind those on the left that not supporting Hillary was monumentally stupid.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:59 AM

10. Control of the SCOTUS was on the ballot in 2016 as well as the fate of Roe v. Wade and gun control

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:15 PM

15. Exactly right

and also why we saw so much big money flood those willing to sell their souls to achieve their goal. In exchange the big money folks got their massive tax breaks, elimination of regulations, elimination of DOJ/FTC investigations etc. Putin got his desired damage to the US and also got his desired damage to the EU by funding (along with other big money interests) the Brexit scam.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:10 PM

36. This -

And it's on the ballot in 2022 too.

Mark me - if Biden gets another SCOTUS appointment and Mitch Please is the Senate Leader - he will NEVER get to make the appointment.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:27 PM

129. Exactly.

Mitch doesn't give a damn about norms, or precedence.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:07 AM

102. Hillary told us that. Michelle Obama told us that. Anyone who had been paying attention knew it!

Some tried to warn to not go too far too fast. Some warned about throwing out the good in pursuit of the perfect. We were roundly heckled, suspended, banned, ridiculed and accused of being trolls. So, here we are.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:05 PM

12. Yes. I frequently imagine what things might have been like

if there had been an HRC presidency. Much different than it turned out, eh? Yes, indeed!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:08 PM

32. I have always wonder what the world would be like if SCOTUS hadn't APPOINTED Bush and Gore had won.

It has been reported that Gore wanted to honor.

The swearing-in ceremony allows for the peaceful transfer of power from one President to another. It formally gives the "power of the people" to the person who has been chosen to lead the United States. This oath makes an ordinary citizen a President.

How HAS THAT peaceful transfer of power from one President to another WORKED OUT FOR US 16 YEARS LATER?

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Response to usaf-vet (Reply #32)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:39 PM

62. Gore did win. SCOTUS was willingly Gaslighted into appointing Shrub.

AND the DNC leadership decided not to support any challenge rather than look like sore losers.

IMO the DNC leadership has much to answer for in Both elections, among them is why they were so unwilling to do the brave thing and risk offending their corporate funding.

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Response to Ford_Prefect (Reply #62)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 03:34 PM

71. This so This

The supreme court has been partisan for a long ass time and they screwed voters and Gore Big time and it was total and complete bull shit!!

But the DNC has a role and has never really stood up and said so.


Roberts, Kav and Barrett also had a role in that garbage. I highly doubt they would have their current job without participation in that previous job.

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Response to RANDYWILDMAN (Reply #71)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 03:49 PM

72. The obvious conclusion to be drawn is that the current sate of affairs was bought and paid for

by certain members of Corporate America.

Things as they are in SCOTUS, including TFG and his many pernicious permutations and effects, are without question the intended result of corporate influences on Congress, both national parties, and the residents of the White House.

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Response to Ford_Prefect (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:38 AM

138. Nope, this is a self inflicted wound. It happened twice - 2000,2016. And I still hear threats to

do it again in 24.

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Response to Ford_Prefect (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:45 AM

140. No, why? Why are Republicans only motivated by money and not OBVIOUSLY by ideology?

Why does anybody think the Democratic Party is corrupt? Why would corporations want the American economy to fail? Both sides. Evidence.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:52 PM

51. 20 years of hillary bashing on rw radio, ignored by the left, really worked great!

that buzz was so pervasive a lot of democrats absorbed it too

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Response to certainot (Reply #51)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:59 PM

52. What do you mean "ignored by the left"?

The Hillary-hate supposedly coming from the left was completely different from that coming from the right.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #52)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:29 PM

61. ignoring it is the biggest political mistake in history, for global warming action delay alone

and then there's all the hillary hate and for instance, weeks of unchallenged attacks on anita hill and christine blasey ford to get those shits on the supremes, etc.

the 2010 election was another good eg of the astounding stupidity, incompetence, and irresponsibility of ignoring rw radio. the new dem voters fell for the national rw buzz that obama considered himself a messiah who could bring everyone together but he couldn't close guantanamo, couldn't get us single payer, etc, so why vote. and a lot of naive purist idiots didn't so we lost congress. limbaugh led 1500 radio stations making sure no republicans could cooperate with obama/dems and at the same time sold that shit. only ignored rw radio, free for the GOP/ALEC/federalist society and endorsed by many of the universities a lot of non voters were going to, could do that.

the social media attacks, with russian help, on hillary, piggybacked years of rw radio repetition. i was seeing some of that coming from democrats/liberals on liberal blogs, repeating that same highly exaggerated crap, whether they were really bernie supporters or trolls.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:27 PM

59. In that alternate timeline...

... There ain't no short-handled shovels, no axes saws or picks...

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:05 PM

13. Don't threaten me with the

Supreme Court, bro. /s

The so called dems who stayed home or voted for Jill Stein helped put Trump in the oval office.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #13)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:07 PM

31. Russian spoiler. Stupid voters.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:11 PM

14. They have to wait for COMPLETE annihilation to enable their "revolution."

Until then, they get to live with the MAGA's revolution, and IT'S ALL THE DEMOCRATS' FAULT!

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #14)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:11 PM

38. Ding ding ding - winner!

Yes - I do remember a certain segment of voters believing this would bring the 'revolution faster'.

Shame on them.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #38)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:28 PM

43. And still do. Still push lies and Democratic failure openly elsewhere.

And determinedly.

Remembering their sads at our big gains during the 2010 midterms and passing of the giant bipartisan infrastructure bill, and crowing at any losses as ALL THE DEMOCRATS' FAULT.

Shame on LW authoritarian faux progs, all right, but what's wrong with them won't let them know it. Like the MAGAs.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:54 AM

91. A lot of them just didn't want a female president.

It came down to that. Women and men who couldn't bring themselves to support a woman for president. Saw it very clearly in the way she was treated by so-called journalists.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #91)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:24 AM

98. Yes. Misogyny among some on the left, not just right, was obvious.

The election was so close that many oppositional efforts were big enough in themselves to throw it to tRump, but misogyny was probably the biggest single element, uniting opponents across the electorate.

Btw, I'm remembering the election following the "Year of the Woman" when some here were noisily hoping to defeat women candidates, some of whom had just been elected. Misogyny's normal to both populist and authoritarian attitudes, heavy in RW versions, lighter in LW, but always part of their nature. Regardless of what they may claim, we see it again and again.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #98)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:28 AM

99. +1

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #14)


Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:18 PM

16. Someone needs to explain how they saddled a generation with

this. “Progressives” is not a term they get to use when you look at this backwards march.

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Response to Nixie (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:47 PM

23. No shit, right!

No shit, right!

And here’s why I won’t let it go, most of them are still doing it to mainstream Democrats.

All you have to do is tune in that Nicole Sandler person to get a taste of it, and unbelievably people listen to her and don’t realize the damage it does to hear that shit 24 seven.

She has a small audience, so she’s not relevant necessarily but it’s the overall bullshit that never ends.

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Response to Nixie (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:46 AM

111. Aiming anger to your left probably isn't a good tactic at this point.

Anything to the left of you isn't the problem. Let's all look to the right.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #111)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:59 AM

115. Nice try, but we know how the "right" got into power and the "left"

was warned about it, but whining about billionaires was more fun than reality.

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Response to Nixie (Reply #115)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 11:07 AM

117. If that becomes the pervasive attitude of the mainstream Dem party

please don't act surprised when the progressive left doesn't take the beating and ask for another. The people to your left are on the same side as you in social issues (and probably more progressive since they are to your left). This is not the time to alienate us.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #117)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 11:20 AM

119. You only need to look at reality. No need to keep browbeating

others into accepting a failed revolution. Soon you will be calling me a corporate democrat or the other petty nomenclature used against my party, all to the glee of Republicans. Why on earth would you continue to threaten not voting for Democrats. Look at the headlines. This is what giving Republicans power has gotten and doesn’t look to stop.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #117)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:03 PM

149. If the Progressive Left

doesn't show up and vote for Democratic candidates because they don't pass their ridiculous purity tests then where is the danger in alienating them? Are they going to double not vote? Can you not vote for someone twice in the same election?

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Response to Willto (Reply #149)

Sun Jun 26, 2022, 09:29 AM

150. We did show up for Clinton. Better than Clinton voters did for Obama.

So I don't know where you getting your straw from.

But it doesn't take a genius level approach to human interaction to know that shitting on and blaming a group that is an ally is going to decrease that groups desire to work with you.

And it's rich that mainstream Dems would talk about purity tests from progressives.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #150)

Sun Jun 26, 2022, 10:05 AM

151. "We"? Folks like Nina Turner didn't. She was Bernie Sanders'

campaign manager. Why would Bernie allow someone from his campaign to split Democrats?

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #150)

Sun Jun 26, 2022, 11:19 AM

153. WOW!

If you think it was centrist Democrats shitting on progressives then you must not have been around for the Democratic primary in 2016. Talk about EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

I did not see a SINGLE mainstream Democrat say they would not vote for Bernie in the general election if he won the Democratic nomination. I did not see a SINGLE mainstream Democrat advocate for voting for Jill Stein in the general election. I did not see a SINGLE mainstream democrat saying crap like maybe it's best for Trump to win so it will bring on the revolution. That wasn't centrist Democrats booing civil rights icons like Elijah Cummings while he spoke at the Democratic convention. That wasn't centrist Democrats protesting outside the convention hall and destroying any hope of party unity.

It has never been centrist Democrats showing our ass in such a fashion. So why then is it always us that have to kiss the ass of those who do act that way? We MIGHT need them to win elections (although we still manage victories without them) but here's a newsflash for you. Without the vastly larger mainstream of this party the far left couldn't get someone elected hall monitor at a 3A sized junior high school. So why are they never chastised for how they act towards or speak about us? Why is it only centrist democrats that are told they have to just shut up and tolerate this childish tantrum bullshit for the overall sake of the party.

From what I've seen you can move twenty miles in their direction to try and appease them and they will just move the goal post again and still refuse to vote for you.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #111)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 11:03 AM

116. That ship has sailed

The time to look to the right was for oh, the last 40 years. Grabbing the water hose AFTER the house has burned down does no good.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #111)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 11:49 AM

121. Unfortunately, a minority on the left are inimical to Democrats, though claiming

to share most of our ideals and goals in order to draw idealists to them. We're not talking about people who consider themselves mostly Democratic voters, and they are not ours to lose.

Look for deception and dissonance, and you'll identify them. People who think the progressive party that produced 81 million voters for its progressive plans in 2016 needs to be defeated, instead of worked with, are not what they say or imagine they are.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #111)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:41 AM

139. Those who refused to vote for Hillary are the issue and already we hear threats for 24.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:22 PM

18. People must live with their choices

All people.

And all of their choices.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:48 PM

24. No, WE have to live with their choices

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #24)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:04 PM

54. We are not especially absolved of our own choices

And it would be an odd thing to think so.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:55 PM

134. THIS

They chose to murder my father and millions more… and they don’t give a damn. I always voted the right way, every time for many years.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:23 PM

19. Amen to that!!!

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:35 PM

21. Who is Hillary Basher? Never heard of someone with that name.

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Response to demigoddess (Reply #21)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:51 PM

26. Easy to find out...

Just start a thread with the title "Hillary planning to run in 2024 if Biden bows out".

You will find a lot of Hillary Basher's in that thread. A LOT of them.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #26)


Response to demigoddess (Reply #21)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:10 PM

35. Apparently, a Hillary brasher is someone who preferred a different Dem backed candidate,

yet did, of course, vote for her.

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Response to Magoo48 (Reply #35)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:19 PM

42. Lots of people bashed Hillary and then didn't vote for her.

Including many on this website. Some of them formed another website and bragged about not voting, not voting the top line, or about supporting Trump.

A few of them are still there, though it seems to have mostly withered on the vine. Maybe some of them have seen the light.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:49 PM

50. Some are still here and obvious if you know what to look for. nt

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #50)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:06 PM

55. +1

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #50)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 03:29 PM

70. I was clued into the name of this group on another thread...

so I got curious and paid a visit.

What did I discover? All-in for Vladimir Putin and backing his genocidal war on Ukrainian "Nazis."

What fuck-heads. Not "progressives," that's for damn sure.

We missed out in many ways in 2016. HRC would have been a very fine president and the Supreme Court would be in good hands.

My blood still boils.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #50)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:55 AM

92. Yep.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:47 PM

22. She, like, got paid for a speech and Planned Parenthood is establishment, or something.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:48 PM

25. And that was enough to just throw the whole country in the toilet

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Response to betsuni (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:31 PM

46. Don't forget that HRC was a warmonger! And she knew where the levers of power were! And and

…. there was a pizza parlor in DC where she personally ran an operation that stole and ate babies!

Thirty years of GOP hounding and persecution and lies, plus a very cleverly-targeted campaign in swing states based on the Electoral College map brought her down.

It was here at DU, all except the pizza parlor — I stopped arguing the merits of the individual and started simply writing SCOTUS SCOTUS SCOTUS in the reply line. But the haters would not be dissuaded: HRC was both evil and dull.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #46)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:35 PM

48. Oh yeah, how can a person be pretty much a warmongering corrupt Satan and dull at the same time?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #46)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:04 AM

101. Lol, dull as in lacked both the thrill and certitude of the authoritarian leader

AND the antagonism-stoking of the populist leader. "Bernie tells it like it is!" Half of the people who came to Bernie Sanders' rallies may not have been registered to vote or able to explain coherently just what "it" was and what he'd do, but they came looking for a leader to cheer.

Hillary's crowds listened to her talk about what she intended to accomplish as president, and why and how. She WAS "dull" compared to authoritarian leaders -- reflecting us and what we want in those we put in power.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:58 PM

27. So long as someone voted for her, I have no complaint

I'm not sure if your issue is only with those who didn't vote for her? Or does it include those who criticized her or weren't totally enthusiastic yet still voted for her?

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 12:59 PM

28. No, my issue is with those who could not stop bashing her

Who made sure everyone around them knew they had to “hold their nose“ to vote for her etc.

Look at the number of people who did not vote or voted third-party because of hearing that shit from both sides.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:06 PM

30. If someone didn't vote for her

I doubt it was because they heard someone else say, "I'm voting for her but I wish there were better choices" or something to that affect. A few may followed the lead of the Susan Sarandons of the world - disgust with her is well placed.

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:02 PM

29. The "criticism" was that she was corrupt and evil.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:08 PM

33. Did some think she was corrupt and evil and still voted for her?

People using that type of description probably didn't, and deserve our disdain.

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #33)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:29 PM

45. The ones who repeated Wall Street Wall Street Wall Street Wall Street corrupt corrupt

"establishment" and "I don't want to see the American people voting for the lesser of two evils" -- they discouraged voting for the Democratic nominee and will never be forgiven.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #45)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:58 PM

67. During the primary or general?

I think that was a legitimate point of dissent during the primaries. But to carry on about it during the general election campaign serves no good purpose, imo.

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #67)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 03:01 PM

69. Was not legitimate and it's still a generic attack of Democrats.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:11 PM

37. The Republican party bashed Hillary for 30+, and it worked out and they are getting what they wanted

They literally are celebrating.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:12 PM

39. Maybe it's about time to revisit the French Revolution.

They figured out they were being exploited and deceived and took care of it 233 years ago.

I don't know about everyone else but, this country is literally being destroyed right before our eyes in broad daylight by the NRA, the evangelicals, giant corporations, most billionaires and the Party of Death. And they're not going to stop until we all submit and are all compliant. Who wants checkpoints? Who wants compulsory church attendance? Who wants forced pregnancy? It wouldn't surprise me if they allowed rape if it was deemed to be for impregnation purposes.

I won't have their sickness forced upon me. Their dark vision is ultimately untenable. Decent people will have to eventually become indecent to right these wrongs. It isn't just democracy that's at stake, it's also our humanity.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:13 PM

40. Butheremails!

Fuck you to every MF who didn't vote for her or stayed home because they were concerned about this bullshit faux scandal.
And a big FUCK YOU to James Comey.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:17 PM

41. My take on bashing.

It's against the Terms of Service and needs to be shut down by the admins, not by in-fighting.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

Don't bash Democratic public figures
Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).

Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).


In short IT'S A RULE.
If it's not enforced, you get vigilante justice, presumably what we are against.
ADMINS, DO YOUR JOB!! and

KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216821536
Donate money, time, write postcards, make calls like your life depends on it, because it does, and so do millions of others.

I have suggested various ways of messaging, and read the analyses, but always recommend the links above!

Various messages I have posted:
Every Accusation is a Confession
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216777247

The "Election Integrity" grift is pure felony theft.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216813088

These, and the fake elector plan might peel some people loose from the "Party of Nothing"


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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:28 PM

44. Actually, the REAL problem ...

... is that we failed to elect Jill Stein.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 01:39 PM

49. Over 100 million potential voters either don't want to, don't care to, or cannot

vote for all kinds of reasons, but they want public-funded healthcare, a living wage, and all kinds of progressive policies.

That's the real problem.

And some electronic voting machines...

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:02 PM

53. Talk about rehashing the 2016 election.

All the OP does is serve to create disunity on this site. People have legitimate personal reasons to prefer their own choice of candidate in the primary, but the Democratic Party selected Clinton as the candidate. It went from there, and most Democrats voted for Clinton.

If such an OP is needed to soothe dismay, it should be kept in mind that the post is also simultaneously an act of self-righteously casting indirect blame on people here.

No one here probably likes what the Supreme Court is doing. Casting blame here will likely not improve this community's spirit and certainly will not change the terrible outcome of the 2016 election.

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #53)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 05:10 PM

77. Amen.

Exactly the point I was making.

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #53)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 07:12 PM

81. nonsense

it needs to be pointed out that VOTING MATTERS

people holding a grudge against Hillary helped to get us here

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Response to Skittles (Reply #81)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:25 PM

83. Voting does absolutely matter. However....

Many things brought the country to this point.

Not focusing on sufficient campaigning in swing states was one of the tragic errors made in that campaign.

The most important thing is to get out the vote in the next election cycle. If the best imagined strategy to do that is to browbeat people, perhaps rethinking the strategy would be wise. This toxicity of overbearing self-righteousness will not help anyone but the opponents: that's why no campaign with a hope to win an election ever puts up posters saying "If you don't vote for me, you're a complete moron."

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #83)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:27 PM

84. yes, many things did, and some were more senseless than others

the anti-Hillary stuff was bullshit at its worst and it has cost us greatly

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Response to Skittles (Reply #84)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 11:31 PM

85. I agree with you totally on that.

We just absolutely have to change things now.

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #83)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:48 AM

88. Oh ffs, yeah it's those who want to keep 2016 from happening again that are toxic.

The toxicity came from the Hillary bashers. If someone feels a little browbeat over something like this OP, maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe they need a good kick in the ass to keep them from fucking us all over again.

The overbearing self-righteousness of history strikes again.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #88)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:51 AM

89. +1

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #83)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:56 AM

114. "toxicity of over-bearing self-righteousness". Jesus! Does this

constant irony never end?? Running on a “revolution” against incumbent Democrats just to espouse some unrealistic political purity standards is the very definition of “toxicity of over-bearing self-righteousness.”

Noticing the results of that toxic strategy is called reality — the reality of those toxic actions. Look at the headlines! This is the reality we’ve all been dragged into. No one has gotten a damm thing from the “revolution.” Quit browbeating people into being quiet so no one feels bad. It’s time for accountability and self-awareness.

And more irony about “helping opponents.” Helping opponents is the whole reason we didn’t get Hillary.

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #83)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:32 AM

136. LOL! So I guess we know where you stand.

PS: It's not self-righteousness. It's grief.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #136)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 08:23 AM

143. LOL.

n/t

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:57 AM

93. The OP is not creating disunity. The disunity is already here.

It's still here as another election approaches. The Hillary bashing continues. This thread isn't rehashing anything. It's about what's happening right now.

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:01 AM

95. Voters selected Clinton as the candidate.

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:28 AM

100. OP is not talking about the 2016 primary

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Response to mcar (Reply #100)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:19 AM

104. Care to explain then what it is?

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Response to Emile (Reply #104)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 05:04 PM

127. 2016 general

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 11:27 AM

120. I don't believe

that pointing out preexisting conditions is an act of creation any more than shining a flashlight on a sink full of dirty dishes created those dirty dishes.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:27 PM

58. I suspect most on here voted for Clinton in 2016. True, she was not my candidate of

choice - I had supported Bernie. But when she became the nominee, I voted for her. While this is true for most Democrats I know and associate with, I fear there were more 'never Clinton' votes than 'never Trump' votes among independent voters, which substantially outnumber both Dems and Republicans.

That wasn't her fault, either. She spoke of a 'vast right-wing conspiracy,' and that is true. She was excoriated steadly by right-wing talk radio, and television (Fox, Sinclair Network) from 1992 on, and by the time 2016 rolled around, this was significant.

In addition, I have often stated on here that we can never underestimate the stupidity and ignorance of the average American voter. Most people don't even THINK about the election until the week of, and as to due diligence, forget it! They can tell you all about the latest reality TV show, or their favorite sports teams, but when it comes to making an actual intellectual connection between who is president and its consequence on the Supreme Court, forget that too!

I can hold up two of my first cousins and my wife's four siblings - they all had substantially negative viewpoints around Clinton, and actually voted for Trump because several of them naively believed that introducing an outsider would 'shake things up.' My analogy was, "So, you're going to hire a plumber to fly a 767?" Didn't work, though. No matter what arguments we advanced, they still voted Trump. For them, voting for Clinton was a hard 'no.'

Would Clinton have been a better president than Trump? Oh, yeah. For sure. Absolutely. And, three of my wife's siblings as well as one of my first cousins had voter's remorse as the disastrous cancer that was Trump attempted to pull this republic down around our knees. But by then it was too late.

I am 63 and have participated in 10 presidential election cycles. In those, I merely voted in 7 of them, and participated more deeply in the last three. Based on these experiences, my 'take' on the whole primary thing is that the Republican primaries tend to force the sane candidates out because they have to cater to their crazy base.

For Democrats it is, fortunately, better, but we must all be mindful that once the party faithful - the people active in their caucuses, local party, and primaries - choose the nominee, that nominee has to face a general election in which the voting populace has often fallen prey to sloganeering (GOP is GREAT at that), smear politics (GOP also great at that), grossly negligent ratings-driven media 'coverage,' and just plain ill-informed ignorance.

I know that some years ago, Mark Udall, who was a US Senator from Colorado, ran against Cory Gardner, who is a right-wing extremist. Fortunately, Hickenlooper beat Gardner last time around, but Udall should NEVER have lost. He did though, because frankly, he was very poor at messaging. In the end, Coloradans voted for Gardner because Gardner had good (if slanted right) messaging, but people wondered what Udall actually stood for.

My message to all here: WE NEED, AS A PARTY, TO GET WAY BETTER AT MESSAGING. The arguments on this site are often vociferous about whether centrist or progressive candidates are better (i.e. can they win?), but my take on it after experiencing the Trump horrorshow, as all of you did, is the message, whatever it is, needs to be STRONG, repeated OFTEN, and focus on several simple talking points. For example, I volunteered the very first time in my life for the Obama campaign in '08 BECAUSE HE CAMPAIGNED ON HEALTHCARE FOR ALL AMERICANS. That is a GREAT message that will get votes.

Legalizing cannabis? A winning message.

Abortion access for all women? A winning message.

Affordable, debt-free college? A winning message.

And why don't corporations pay their fair share of taxes? Right now individuals pay in 86% and corporations only 6.8% of the government's tax revenue. Why is that? We could develop some REALLY STRONG slogans around that.

But universal healthcare? That is the winningest message of all because it is a huge kitchen table issue. What if I get laid off? I'll lose my healthcare! How will I afford the premiums? How will I afford the financially crippling copays? If everyone had Medicare, then a) businesses across the board wouldn't have that massive cost center, b) the 29 million Americans that don't have health insurance, of whom 11 million are working, would have, and c) if you lost your job you would STILL have healthcare. THIS IS A WINNING KITCHEN TABLE ISSUE. It is. I know I harp on it, but people want that.

And gun control? Surely we are creative enough to come up with a good message on that. For example, we could ask why is your right to carry a gun more important than the lives of our children?

Just saying. Sometimes I get frustrated with the Dems, though I have been in this party and have participated in every election for decades, as well as other political events. We really need to get better and much more hard-nosed about our message. This will help us win, regardless of who we stand up as a candidate.

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:45 PM

65. Who doesn't know what Democrats stand for?

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Response to betsuni (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:51 PM

66. Democrats aren't monolithic

They don't all stand for the same things, though directionally they're all similar.

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #66)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 02:58 PM

68. Everybody knows what Democrats stand for.

It's the both-sides, Democrats don't stand for anything/do nothing/are corrupt because of a campaign contribution attack.

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #66)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 06:10 PM

78. True, but if we have thousands of people all focused on one or two issues, we dilute

our voting power. The Republicans put out 'talking points' and stick to those.

Be mindful too, that while many of the things we all variously stand for are quite important, we need to message based on what will attract the most voters. Like healthcare. Social Security. Economic and social justice. Unfair taxation.

While I get that many of us are really tuned in to one or two issues, we have to be mindful that US Senators represent all the people in their states, and members of the US House all the people in their districts, and the president is president of everybody.

Based on your logic, it should quite have been enough in 2016 if we all simply said - Supreme Court! And we did. But that didn't work out too good for us. To win elections at local, state and national levels we really do need good kitchen table talking points. For instance abortion is a wedge issue, packed with passion, but for most people it is a back-burner kind of thing until the decision actually comes down and it is all of a sudden illegal. Same with LGBTQ rights, and particularly trans rights. Most people are generally in favor, true, but may be more worried about other stuff. As to the horrible injustices in law enforcement that grew the BLM movement, and the horrible injustices that spurred the 'me too' movement, same thing. Unless directly affected by some of those issues, as I and members of my family have been, people don't really think about them. Not because they aren't important, either, because they are. I'm not saying that at all.

What I am saying is the Indy family that might decide to come vote in an off year election like this one, they are probably concerned with a) inflation and their depleted purchasing power, b) losing their healthcare if the interest rate hikes bring on a recession, c) finding a way to put their kids through college without burying themselves in a mountain of debt. And please don't shoot the messenger here - this is really true.

For example, I care deeply about access to abortion and other reproductive healthcare for my daughters and granddaughters. I care about gay marriage being upheld. I care a lot about trans rights. I care as deeply about gender equity, and about social justice for everyone. I care a lot about getting rid of the institutional racism. But the thing that touches me every single day, that I worry about every single day is healthcare costs and how I'm getting nickel and dimed to death by corporate profit gouging.

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #78)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:03 AM

86. In the context of Hillary losing the election

I agree the Sarandon types made a big mistake. I suspect some regret it.

I believe in vigorous primaries and efforts to push the party left, yet voting D in the general. And you're right, some withhold their vote without anticipating the broader ramifications.

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Response to 867-5309. (Reply #86)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 12:05 PM

122. Yeah, given the absolute outrage of the Supreme Court overturning Roe today,

anyone who withheld their vote is now reaping a horrible whirlwind of right-wing nut-job fanatics dictating EVERYTHING. The rights of my wife, my three daughters, and my two granddaughters have been ripped back 50 years.

I'm pissed. Not only did I vote in the primary, and will I FOR SURE vote, as I always do, in the general election, but I will be on the phones trying to get votes for Democrats. This is a total disaster.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 04:10 PM

73. The 4 in 10 independent voters, and the 3 in 10 Republican voters.

The Indy voters may try to keep up with news or may not, but are generally too busy to think about political issues until the week of a presidential election, and generally do not vote in off year elections.

And, the registered Republicans, some of whom are bat-s**t crazy, to be sure, but who get a steady diet of lies from hate-talk radio and Fox.

Many of the people in our big tent are also unlikely to vote in most elections.

The people on here tend to be policy wonks. At least I am if you've seen my numerous posts. And there are a number of others as well. We tend to be pretty well versed in the issues and party platform. It really is a stretch to think that of the average American, though. Think David Letterman's 'person in the street' interviews where people couldn't pick countries out on a map, or tell who their US congressional delegation was. This is MOST Americans, sad to say.

That's why we need to POUND the message across with a constant drumbeat.

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 06:12 PM

79. Given how many noses are out of joint due to the OP?

I'm guessing maybe that number is higher than we think. I remember what the primary wars on here were like.

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #58)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:00 AM

94. I agree with you that the DNC needs much better messaging.

I'm about your age and I hear discouragement from younger people. How do we get the DNC to improve its messaging?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #94)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 12:07 PM

123. Well, given today's utter outrage against all women, we now have a HUGE talking point to

absolutely POUND ON day after day, week after week, month after month. We need a supermajority to either pack the court, OR implement a justice rotation system. We have to overturn this bullshit.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 04:56 PM

76. Lock them up Lock them all up!

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Thu Jun 23, 2022, 07:11 PM

80. yup

it was sickening seeing the propaganda against Hillary didn't just work on repukes

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Response to Skittles (Reply #80)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:11 AM

87. +1

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Response to Skittles (Reply #80)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 08:52 AM

90. Useful idiots

Propaganda works great when it plays right into your biases and grievances. For the same reason, magats believe the dumbest shit. They weren't the only ones being played by Russian bot farms.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:18 AM

96. Yeah, I guess deriding us as

"vagina voters" was more important than human rights.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:12 AM

103. Remember the Trash that were Booing and Heckling her during her Speech at the Convention ?

Those trashy people still exist and they make money pretending to care about " progressive" causes while doing everything they can to help Republicans win .

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:21 AM

106. Kick

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:34 AM

108. Same sex marriage and contraception are next

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:35 AM

109. The thing that bugs me the most is that they still think they are smarter than the rest of us.

I know these people are not stupid or ignorant or evil.. so I just do not get what is going on in their heads. They were so wrong yet they wont admit it.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #109)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 12:31 PM

124. WE just dont understand, we support mainstream Democrats and they are

just as big a problem as the cons (this is what they say.)

Problem is NONE of them are as far to the left as I am and I can prove it, the difference is I UNDERSTAND how the TWO PARTY SYSTEM works and they dont.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #109)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 07:38 PM

128. Exactly, and just upthread, one is still blaming this on "corporate

America.” It’s just a waste of time to engage the simpleness of the favorite revolution attacks.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:43 AM

110. Hillary warned us

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #110)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:46 AM

112. +1

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 11:18 AM

118. Exactly

The Bernie supporters that refused to support Hillary because their guy lost are to blame for this

We had a 100% fair primary, Hillary won, Bernie lost

VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 12:54 PM

125. I blame Trump! eom

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:30 PM

126. I include Eddie Glaude in this group

I either change channels or pause the DVR when this jerk is on

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:38 PM

130. Hillary was savaged here during the 2008 primary

Those old threads make for interesting reading.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #130)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:42 PM

131. And Nancy Pelosi is by the same people yet you cant really get them to tell you why.

Since most of the stuff about both Women is made up bullshit, that is.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #131)

Fri Jun 24, 2022, 09:44 PM

132. Yes, there is a faction that doesn't like Speaker Pelosi

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #130)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:38 AM

137. Yes. Just have to Google insults like "Hillarian"

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #130)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:46 AM

141. Not true...it was far worse in the 2016 General for Hillary and at that point the primary

was over. Hillary and Bill campaigned for Obama none stop. Obama was not told it was his job to win Hillary supporters over.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #141)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 06:52 AM

142. +1

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #141)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 04:41 PM

147. I'll quote comments about Hillary made in 2008 primary

I made a post once listing such comments. If I can find that, I'll post a link to it.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 08:48 AM

144. I blame one person, he knew exactly what he was doing.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #144)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 09:05 AM

145. Sigh...a better future is coming I guess

In response to wasting your vote for a third party:

?s=20&t=TLRCqJFYLUj7RFa4BbwHeg

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Response to Hav (Reply #145)

Sat Jun 25, 2022, 09:07 AM

146. Exactly.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #144)

Sun Jun 26, 2022, 10:29 AM

152. +1

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