So can we trash religion on DU, NOW???

[lindysalsagal]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Spazito (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Since it just took over half the population? Is that political enough?

[roamer65]

1. I already do.

I say go for it.

RELIGION IS POISON.

[Duppers]

89. Indeed!

Based in myths.

[usaf-vet]

96. Aa former military I have always wondered how many humans have died because of religion and.....

....it's involvement in fomenting wars. If your religion doesn't agree with my religion I will kill you because of your religious beliefs.

[roamer65]

97. A shit ton.

[Meadowoak]

2. No argument from me.

[gratuitous]

3. Yeah, you don't need our votes anyway

I'm confident you'll carry a majority of votes in any election with that bold strategy.

[Goodheart]

4. When you get right down to it, religion is OPINION, as is politics

and should be treated the same.

[Maru Kitteh]

86. That is exactly correct. Nt

[Treefrog]

5. All religions?

Any exempt?

[NYC Liberal]

8. Religion should never be exempt from criticism.

[Victor_c3]

26. +1, nothing should be exempt from legitimate criticism n/t

[SouthernDem4ever]

56. also should never be exempt from taxes

[H2O Man]

71. Of course not.

But perhaps more specific conversation would be more useful, rather than the generic yerm "religion." Just my opinion, though others might disagree.

[USALiberal]

87. Maybe you should just pick the one you want!!

[JT45242]

6. It is not ALL religions -- hell not even all Catholics -- this is the work of the Federalist Society

and the small reactionary branches of the Catholic church that like pedophile priests and rapist judges like kavanaugh.

If it were all religions -- then we would see those public funds going to Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist schools.

Nope this is all about a handful of racist and homophobic denominations -- Baptists, the soon to be split in pieces Methodists, and the branch of the Catholic church that should have been squashed a long time ago. Plus the megachurch franchises that are just a giant grift.

People who actually live by the tenants of their faith -- whther they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc believe in helping the poor and oppressed, the stranger, etc.

These are racists using their religion as a weapon.

[TeamProg]

10. Half correct. This is more like a Christianity Corporation. n/t

[dalton99a]

14. +1

[pazzyanne]

78. + 1 nt

[TeamProg]

7. +1 !!!

[nolabear]

9. Welcome to the American Taliban. Even that's not a horrible enough term.

We mean nothing. We are not free. I’m so sorry, young women. We won it and we couldn’t hold it. I’m so sorry.

[TeamProg]

11. +1 !!!

[dalton99a]

12. People have every right to worship a door knob or whatever

and other people have every right to say something about it

[Jerry2144]

37. And those who worship door knobs

Do not have a right to inflict their door knob fetish on the rest of the public.

[dalton99a]

54. +1

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:21 PM - Edit history (1)

[Rural_Progressive]

53. Ra-men!!

[GoCubsGo]

13. The opiate of the masses has just caused an overdose.

Not sure we are going to survive it.

[ruet]

15. ...

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[Farmer-Rick]

72. Well it's specifically the Christian religion

That supports Trump, the GOP and forced birth.

How are you going to stand up against all those things without attacking the Christian Religion?

It's like saying it's ok to be a Nazi (which is also about the Christian Religion) but you stand against antisemitism.

[Enoki33]

16. Not sure religion is the appropriate name

as it is more like business and politics with the proverbial con.

[Initech]

21. Well now there is zero discernable difference between the Christian right and the Taliban.

And it's probably going to get worse.

[Enoki33]

32. Have to agree.

[keithbvadu2]

35. Politics and religion use each other to gain power and wealth.

[Trust_Reality]

45. Often very true. I suggest that religious people are highly vulnerable to certain types of "stuff"

and that greedy manipulators are very much aware of that.

I was quite religious at one time in my life, and certain realities scared the hell out of me. (Literally?)

I suggest that religious people would do themselves and everyone else a great favor if they would believe whatever they need to believe and not try to make everyone else appease them.

[keithbvadu2]

98. Freedom of religion... For some more than others.

[housecat]

92. Eleven words succinctly cover it all. I especially like the word "use."

[I_have_a_cat_bite]

17. Only a couple of Democrats...

... dared to ask Amy Comey Barret about her loony cult in the confirmation hearings. This timidness needs to change. Delusions have NO place in policy-making or judges. They are going to our bedrooms, and they will not stop there. We must go to their churches and give them a piece of our minds. These churches are tax-exempt Republican voter factories.

[Initech]

18. I never stopped!

[iemanja]

19. This isn't about religion

It's about the conservative take over of the courts made possible by two things: The presidential election of 2016 and the lack of attention that many Democrats pay to local elections, which has enabled states to pass increasingly restrictive state abortion laws.

But you can always use this as an excuse to trash the DUers who do follow a religion, only it will say absolutely nothing about the SCOTUS decision today. It is a political development, not a religious one.

[Initech]

23. I am definitely paying more attention to local elections now!

I know in the last couple of years we elected a MAGA shithead who attended January 6th to the local school board that we unfortunately cannot get rid of, and when the election comes I will gladly help volunteer to get rid of her!

[TheJillMill]

48. Using Religion

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Seneca"

I'm not talking about spirituality or spiritual religious people here as I'm a believer, but I don't believe in the same God that the atheists don't believe in, the one that meddles in politics.

[Magoo48]

77. Religious fanatics of many ills carry the ball and spew oppressive horseshit from their pulpits.

So, when a few of their own plop down on the SC, they do damage to us all.

[iemanja]

88. So your contention is that if not for religion

the federalist society wouldn't train conservative judges? What would they do?
Seems to me that religion is a cheap scapegoat for people who already dislike it.

[Magoo48]

90. No, what I'm saying is religion carries a shitload of water for the repression and fascism of today.

[Magoo48]

91. No, what I'm saying is religion carries a shitload of water for the repression and fascism of today.

[Mossfern]

95. I don't think that this

is meant to trash anyone here who is a person of faith.
It's more about the 1st Amendment.

[spicysista]

20. Do what you want.

However, this had nothing to do with " religion". This is the view of a few, mostly white, people in a very powerful cult disguised as a religion. Most evangelicals do not believe in repealing Roe. (Among Christians, white evangelical Protestants remain the substantial outliers with 30% saying abortion should be legal in most or all cases, compared to 73% among Black Protestants, 70% among white mainline (non-evangelical) Protestants, 59% among white Catholics, 57% among Hispanic Catholics, and even 52% among Hispanic Protestants.) There are countless polls proving that fact. Most Christians subscribe to the view illustrated in 1 Corinthians 11:28-29, "but let a man examine himself". Most have a live and let live attitude because they realize that each walk is different.
But, I believe in free speech. Whether I agree with the sentiments or not, I support your right to say whatever is on your heart.

A few articles with statistics on the matter.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/16/politics/americans-abortion-roe-v-wade-poll/index.html
( From the article: 3 of 4 people believe this decision should be between a woman and her doctor.)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/06/24/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-supreme-court-reportedly-set-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/?sh=2e78c6c72f3a
From the article: Gallup polls show Americans’ support for abortion in all or most cases at 80% in May 2021, only sightly higher than in 1975 (76%), and the Pew Research Center finds 59% of adults believe abortion should be legal, compared to 60% in 1995—though there has been fluctuation, with support dropping to a low of 47% in 2009.

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/most-oppose-overturning-roe-v-wade-widespread-confusion-over-a-post-roe-world/
Nearly two-thirds of Americans say abortion should be legal in most or all cases (64%), including majorities of Democrats (87%) and independents (66%), compared to 36% of Republicans. Among Christians, white evangelical Protestants remain the substantial outliers with 30% saying abortion should be legal in most or all cases, compared to 73% among Black Protestants, 70% among white mainline (non-evangelical) Protestants, 59% among white Catholics, 57% among Hispanic Catholics, and even 52% among Hispanic Protestants. Among those who follow non-Christian religions, 80% say abortion should be legal in most or all cases, while 85% of those who are religiously unaffiliated agree. Only a modest gender gap exists–more than six in ten men (61%) and women (66%) say abortion should be legal in most or all cases.

[jmbar2]

41. Thanks for posting this

I am increasingly wary of religious folks because they seem to have merged with the radical right.

But not all. Thanks for the reminder.

[spicysista]

47. No problem!

We're all in this together!

[JT45242]

64. This is so true - -the screaming minority of the truly silent majority

The screaming minority of religious are for this...

Please do not lump all the religious folks with the intolerant ones.

If I posted --

All Muslims are terrorists

All atheists are sociopathic narcissists

or dozens of other absolute statements -- it would go to a panel and the post would be rightly taken down.

This is about the Federalist society and the RWNJ catholic sects that house people like Barret, Kavanaugh, Alito, etc. This is not a ruling that sits well with most people of any religion. And the statistics above show that.

[spicysista]

67. Exactly.

Blanket statements rarely serve any good purpose. We (from any and every walk of life) are all in this together.

[uponit7771]

22. ***ONLY*** The religion that says abortion is bad ... fair? tia

[NewHendoLib]

24. I've trashed it all in my life. Much joy ensued

[dawg]

25. No, because there are still plenty of religious people here, myself included ...

who are just as infuriated by these developments as you are.

Some of us take very seriously that "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" part.

[pazzyanne]

80. Exactly! nt

[sarisataka]

27. Now?

You mean so far this has been the tolerant of religion DU?

[RestoreAmerica2020]

28. Did ffg call in his chips--of as one of his tweets yrs ago: DO SOMETHING!

..to change the narrative now bc they are crucifying me out here .might be sent to jail!

Ps will look for source ..think it was before first impeachment--will add on edit.

[Marthe48]

29. Just so long as you know

there is religion and there is faith. I don't think you get faith in church. You get religion. I have faith that religion will fail. And I hope soon.

[overleft]

30. What you say has nothing to do with people with real faith.

These people are religious zealots who are totally brainwashed. Those who follow the teachings of Christ don't fall for right wing bullsh*t.

[BradAllison]

31. Judaism may become the savior for abortion

I kid only slightly, because use of the term "Judeo-Christian" is pure right-wing virtue signaling, but the case on this could be fascinating.

[edhopper]

33. Yes,

and we always could. But it was relegated to the Religion Forum. There are controversial topics that are out of bound on GD. I think in a case like this, the mods offer some latitude.

[calimary]

57. Ouch.

Carly n still cuts deep.

[burrowowl]

84. Love it

[Historic NY]

34. Pseudo-religion funded by money from religious zealots...

Leonard Leo and the Federalist society

[link:https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/leonard-leo-federalists-society-courts/|]

We have to change the non-for-profit rules that allow fundraising under the guise of social workings

[BlueJac]

36. No problem!

[cloudboy07]

38. "I'M IN " ! church & state is very bad combo !

[PatrickforB]

39. These evangelical right-wing nut-job fanatics are operating in a way that shows

definitively that they care far more about power and wealth than they do about people and certainly don't seem to even be paying attention to the Divine message in virtually all wisdom literature. These people are fanatical maggots who have set back women's rights fifty years, and are surely going to go further by banning gay marriage, consentual sex acts, birth control and lord knows what else.

[relayerbob]

40. Sure, if you're up for discrimination

First thing to realize is that these right wingers in power aren't advocating for religion, they are advocating for (their own) personal power. They simply use the term Christianity to push anti-Christian agendas. They couldn't care less about the people of the country, regardless of their religios views.

[shrike3]

42. DUers trash religion already.

I've been around for years (despite my low post count) and I've seen it regularly. And I'm fine with it. So long as it's not done in a safe haven group (defeats the purpose of those) trash away.

[Iggo]

43. I've been doing it here for 15 years.

Welcome to the party.

[shrike3]

46. Lots of DUers have. Free speech. Trash away.

[The Protagonist]

65. Yes, but there are limits to that free speech within DU

As there should be.

[plimsoll]

44. I guess that depends on what you mean by religion.

First off, every culture has a set of beliefs they adhere to. They may involve gods, sometimes they wind up organized around philosophical schools, but they have a set of beliefs they nominally try to follow. Most people will lump all that in as religion, it's the definition that Creationists use to call science a religion.

Christianity is still the dominant religion in the USA, and many of those who do not practice any formal denomination live in a society that was structured by Christianity and adhere too many of those structures. There are numerous sects/denominations within contemporary American Christianity, and that is where the debate and anger start.

Are some of those sects/denominations corrosive to the human condition, sure but that is not a universal truth and should be rejected as such. Where I tend to anger many Christians is in my belief that the liberal / progressive Christians bear some responsibility for the current state of affairs. Not through their actions, but through their inaction. The vector the religious right wanted to follow was obvious 42 years ago, vocally saying that is not the direction we want to go might have helped stop this moment. I didn't see that very much then, and when I see it today it's usually directed at me personally in the form of "I don't agree with that."

I see and recognize a very sharp distinction between the Christian Right and the Christian Left, but that leaves us with with two very different groups that call themselves Christians, one that is functionally a fascist movement and the other that opposes that fascism. I just think the Christians opposed to the fascism need to vocally and publicly defend their positions. I can't do it, but I'll only criticize them for the lack of courage that I also share, not for being just like the fascists.

[rambler_american]

49. Religion?

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? '
~ Douglas Adams

[SouthBayDem]

50. How about "love the sinner, hate the sin?"

Criticism of religious belief is not inherently bigotry against believers, if done right.

[malthaussen]

51. Religion is not what Aristotle would call the "final cause."

The final cause would be something along the lines of authoritarianism, of which some religions are just vehicles. The problem here is that not all religion is bad, but it is at least arguable that all totalitarianism is.

-- Mal

[NNadir]

52. I do not participate in religions beyond social obligations...

...but I have known religious people who are not right wing fundamentalists.

I have never felt constrained on DU about criticizing the intrusion of religion into basic human rights, as is certainly the case with this horrible attack on women, but that said, I would hesitate to attack people of faith in a blanket sense.

Those of us who are nonbelievers may think and do think that religion is absurd - Tertullian famously remarked that absurdity was the source of his belief - but we serve humanity better if we focus on the value or perniciousness of religious principals on a case by case basis.

Elaine Pagels brilliantly suggested that the belief in human equality which has spread widely around the world, regrettably not everywhere, derived from historical Christianity. I am not a Christian and have dismissed countless appeals to become one, within and without my family, but I agree with Dr. Pagels that even our Declaration of Independence originates in that Christian principle, the principle that all human beings have intrinsic value. She noted that many philosophers would have found such a conception ridiculous, citing, as I recall, Aristotle.

I think criticizing particular religious principles are fair game, but even as I have no religion, I see no purpose in a blanket condemnation.

[johnp3907]

55. YAY !!!! Infighting!!!

[gordianot]

58. I have no problem with mythology and religion in general.

Religion is part of the human condition and can be instructive. The problem always appears to be humans who practice religion and totally miss the possibility of any constructive benefits of those belief systems. All too often they develop interpretations that contradict those religious beliefs and have no ability apply those beliefs.

[Unca Jim]

59. Or...

Or maybe save the trashing for the majority of white women who keep on voting Republican and not the people working hard to keep pregnant people free and with their own agency who happen to have beliefs that differ from yours?

My unconditional support of pregnant peoples' rights is based on my religious opinions.

[nightwing1240]

63. Maybe not trash them but they did bring this ruling by their actions

To this day I still cannot understand people voting against their own personal interest

[spooky3]

85. White men, not women, are the most consistent supporters of Republicans. Nt

[CaptainTruth]

60. Trash the Radical Right, that's the proper target.

Some of them claim to be "religious," but clearly aren't.

[paleotn]

62. I've never stopped trashing religion.

And I know some rather nice, progressive religious people. I just wish they've give up the barbarity and, as we use to say in the south, "come on over to god's side". Pun intended.

[nightwing1240]

68. Let's lay this at the feet on which is ultimately rests

Ronnie Frikken Reagan and the duplicitous GOP bastards. Yes, religion played a part but without idiot politicians to push it, nothing would have been done about it. Same reason we cannot get basic simple gun reform, the repuke bastards feel it isnt in their best interest to do so. Screw how many are killed annually, just keep the cash from the NRA flowing into my pockets (their thoughts not mine)

[Snackshack]

69. There was an unwritten agreement

A long time ago according to what I have read that the tax exemption religious organizations enjoys was roughly contingent on the religious organizations staying out of politics from the pulpit. The tax exemption must be ended. The religious organizations made their choice…

Religious organizations have totally torn down the barrier keeping church and state separate is gone. The pro religion rulings scotus has issued in this week and others shows.

SCOTUS is no longer a non biased arbiter of justice that it was and was respected for. The GOP & CJ Roberts have destroyed the court for partisan purposes. The bull💩 the GOP did to seat 3 judges some rated unfit/unqualified by the ABA so that they could see this decision come to fruition is a stain on the court that will never go away and always give this decision an air of illegitimacy. Roberts will be rt next to Taney for worse SCOTUS CJ ever.

[pazzyanne]

82. Agree!!! nt

[dchill]

73. You do NOT need my permission! Go for it!

[Leith]

74. No

I usually keep quiet about religion on DU and in life. The truth is that I feel contempt bordering on hatred for it and it grinds down into my inner being to have to tolerate it.

However, many of the people who hold or held their religion near to their reason for existing consider it to be a source of comfort and guidance. My mother was such a person. I couldn't find it in me to counter her to her face because it terrified her that I was condemned to eternal damnation. She was old, very infirm, and had suffered from severe rheumatoid arthritis for 30 years before she died. A few months before she died, she called me, crying and begging me to go to church. I told her that I did not attend regularly, but I would try to step it up. Yes, it was a lie, but it got her off my back.

Similarly, many people who are religious or spiritual consider it to be a major foundation of who they are. I just can't allow myself to insult them for something that contributes to their happiness, well-being, and their way of getting through life. It's like telling them that they are stupid and illogical for loving their children.

That's not to say that I won't debate finer points of a belief system, but to trash people where they live is not what we should do - especially to political allies. Your fellow DUers are not at fault for the radical supreme court and they are not responsible for our loss of freedoms. In fact, they are our best and most stalwart allies. Don't chase them away.

[barbtries]

75. and Republicans.

it's very important to trash republicans at every opportunity until they're nothing but dust in the wind.

[wnylib]

76. Are you serious? When was it ever not allowed

to trash religion on DU? It's nearly a daily occurrence.

But when you trash ALL religion, you also trash allies. The following religions do NOT forbid abortion. They also uphold and work for the rights of women, minorities, POC, and LGBTQ people. Mainstream Lutherans, mainstream Presbyterian, and Episcopalian. I know that there are some others, but these are the 3 whose views I am familiar with.

Judaism supports abortion to preserve the life and health of a woman. Individual branches of Judaism vary on details. There is a case of freedom of religion being brought on behalf of Judaism and the right to abortion.

So why would you want to trash people who agree with you on abortion rights and on rights for women, POC, and LGBTQ people?

[NH Ethylene]

79. I will never trash religious beliefs. To each his own goes both ways.

But organized religion mobilizing for political clout is a hugely destructive force in our nation and should be trashed (and taxed!) at every opportunity.

[BWdem4life]

83. Religion? No.

The problem is those who insist on foisting their religion upon others. That is a very small minority. It’s like pit bulls - punish the dog, not the breed.

[Dirty Socialist]

93. I think the divinity of Jesus was a reaction to

I think the divinity of Jesus was a reaction to a Roman god created in the 1st Century BC. The Roman god was crucified, died, then rose from the dead.
Also, Caesar Augustus, who ruled 27 BC to 14 AD, claimed to be the son of Zeus (Jupiter).
Finally, MANY personalities were claimed to perform miracles. “Miracles” were somewhat common and widespread.

[phylny]

94. Where have you been?

DUers have been trashing Christianity forever.

[Dysfunctional]

99. I don't agree with bashing religions as a whole.

There are rabbis, pastors, and even priests who are pro-choice. And many of them have been speaking out. Yes, there are people in all religions that are against abortions, but there are also atheists who are anti-abortion.

[Spazito]

100. *LOCKING*

Host consensus is this OP doesn't meet the criteria in the SOP of this forum:

Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum.


Threads about the existence/non-existence of God, threads discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of religion in general, and threads discussing the truth/untruth of religious dogma are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted under Religion.