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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPublic prayer at secular events really pisses me off.
I find it very presumptuous, exclusionary, and in your face.
I NEVER presume anyone thinks the way I do about any topic, and I keep my political and spiritual cards close to my vest until I get some indication of how another person looks at things.
Our sons attended the same college, and were both on the soccer team. Their chief rival in their athletic conference was Wheaton College in Wheaton Illinois, a hyper-religious school that declares its belief that Adam and Eve are the historical parents of the whole human race right up front in their Statement of Faith and Educational Purpose section of their web site.
After games, the Wheaton team would gather at the midfield line for a prayer circle, and invite the opposing team to join in. They did this at their own school, which was hard to argue against, but also when they were the visiting team. This irritated me no end, because I thought it was very arrogant to assume that the host schools would welcome this. On your own campus, OK, fine, if you must. When on someone elses turf, mind your own damn business and pray on the bus on the trip home.
Thanks for nothing, Extreme Court 6 -
MuseRider
(34,108 posts)probably more than just about anything else.
Native
(5,942 posts)MineralMan
(146,289 posts)there are really no legitimate legal bars to them holding prayers publicly. I agree that such public praying is annoying, but I don't attend sports events at private colleges, and especially not religious ones.
Wheaton is a very strange place, with a massive set of rules for its students and faculties that restrict all sorts of activities that are not restricted elsewhere.
I learned about Wheaton when the church I attended as a high school student offered me a full ride scholarship there. I declined the offer after doing a bit of research and also since I had no interest in studying theology, etc. at any school. In fact, I was just a couple of years away from becoming an atheist.
Prayer is the stock in trade at Wheaton, and probably at most of the schools where its teams play.
ETA: Checking shows that Wheaton's teams compete primarily with private, church-sponsored colleges, just as I suspected, so the Supreme Court has nothing to say about prayer at such schools.
3catwoman3
(23,975 posts)
Wisconsin, is loosely associated with the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Very loosely. No chapel attendance requirement. No prayers before or after sporting events. No declaration of faith. All students take 2 religion courses as part of their core curriculum requirements, but that is it.
I think it is a matter of good manners to abide by the customs of the school hosting you. Dont presume to impose your routines on others, who may not welcome them.
We dont say grace before meals in our home. If we did, and I were a dinner guest in a home where they did not, there is no way I would impose my ritual on another family.
Wheaton offers a biology major. I would love to audit one of their intro to bio classes and ask the professor, Hey, prof - if Adam and Eve are the historical parents of the whole human race, did Eve have to commit incest with her sons to produce daughters for them to incestuously mate with? Where did all the other people come from?
What a bunch of malarkey.
MineralMan
(146,289 posts)on religious activities whatsoever. They can have them or not have them, in whatever form they please. You are annoyed by such things, but they're not violating any constitutional or legal rules.
Good manners? Well, that college can choose whether or not it will allow religious activities at games. That was my only point. I am an atheist, so I don't engage in any religious activities. I am sometimes, however, in places where they occur. Maybe I've been invited to speak at some Rotary club, something I have done often. I know that they are going to have a prayer before their meeting and probably recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I can chose not to speak there. I am not required to attend any such meeting.
The same thing applies at a private college. It can allow prayers at games, or whatever else it wants to do. Again, I am not required to attend anything that school does.
Government sponsored organizations are another matter. For example, I do not have to be subjected to prayers at school or to visit a local library. If a courtroom had an invocation prayer, it might be that I am required to attend that court. So, I do not expect, nor would I tolerate a prayer being said there before the business of the court proceeded.
Wheaton, unlike Carthage College, is truly a religious college. It graduates many students who become pastors of protestant churches. It is more or less a "Bible College."
ELCA colleges don't generally have worship requirements or religion-based rules for students. Baptist Colleges often do. Some Presbyterian ones do, as well.
Wheaton College sports generally involve other Christian Colleges, although not always. If Carthage allows them to have prayers before the game or afterwards, that's Carthage's decision to make. I have no idea what that school is like.
Malarkey? Yes, absolutely. I agree. However, I have no standing whatsoever to object to their practices, and neither does the law. In fact, what they do is covered by the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Wheaton is a religious college, so its religious activities fall under that amendment's rights. As long as I am not required to participate or even attend any function at Wheaton, they can do as they please, under our laws. Wheaton is not a government function. It is a private organization. What they teach in their Biology classes is not really my business. What they do on the sports field is not, either. I choose not to participate. It's simple.
So, I choose not to attend or participate in any way. You can do the same. So can your offspring. If they are offended by religious practices, they can attend a state college of some kind, I suppose. Or, they can go to Carthage and ignore that stuff. If they go to Wheaton, however, there will be a pledge they have to take, and many, many rules they have to follow at that private institution.
CrispyQ
(36,462 posts)So sick of these fucking hypocrites shoving their toxic religion down society's throat.
Novara
(5,842 posts)It infuriates me.
Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)Nailed it!
hatrack
(59,585 posts)DBoon
(22,366 posts)... you do not belong at the event.
It is intentional exclusion.
brewens
(13,582 posts)just go with fuck you! To paraphrase Hank Jr, I don't say sir and I don't say ma'am, if you ain't into that, you can kiss my ass!
The flag is nothing but a stinking rag to me until we put this white nationalist crap down. I don't have to respect their superstition or anything they think they have wrong with the crap in their head. I'm done.
LakeArenal
(28,817 posts)Out of respect for a friend I attended an event for a different religion. Millions more people areblank than Christian. Anyway, the whole thing was sooo cult-like. I felt like an Hawaiian when the missionaries arrived.
As in the video of that coach praying
the group speak, the slogans, chanting
To me it is grooming.
If, as a human, you lack empathy, kindness, integrity, no religion is going to help you.
As I said out of respect for a friend I did this. I respect others in there journey to god,zen,karma
Or other.
But if you need a Bible to guide you. Try this verse:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org wiki
Matthew 6:5 -
Solomon
(12,310 posts)praying every time he sent the field goal kicker in. I used to get so annoyed. Like if there was a god, she would care about a fucking field goal in a football game!
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)multigraincracker
(32,675 posts)A guy on the third string, no one liked stood up to offer a prayer. I yelled FUCK YOU Butch. Everyone clapped.
shrike3
(3,586 posts)But we live in a country where nones are the fastest growing group. It's more important than ever to maintain the wall between church and state.
malaise
(268,987 posts)At the end, one of the UN folks (a Bahai) started both praying and proselytizing rather than simply making closing remarks. I was beyond pissed, got up and walked out followed by my two colleagues.
The next time I saw her I let her know that she broke all rules that day and I dont play the manners shit when that happens.
phylny
(8,380 posts)As fate would have it, I met and was close friends years later with a woman who judged one of her competitions at James Madison University. One of the people from Liberty University was judging my daughter and wanted to take points off because she had some CLEAVAGE SHOWING. My daughter is overweight, but was dressed as professionally as she could be for an overweight high school student.
My friend pitched a fit and the Liberty University person stood down.
malaise
(268,987 posts)We have to stand up to these bullies
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)H2O Man
(73,537 posts)Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,960 posts)And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
3catwoman3
(23,975 posts)Wheatons players were well known for embellishing - lots of taking a dive and acting injured to try to draw a foul.
It was so egregious in one game that I yelled out, Are you guys all drama majors? So much for that pesky commandment of not bearing false witness.
AnrothElf
(567 posts)Due to my own choices. But prayer is officially on my shit list. I will interrupt it in any way I can. Including purchasing one of those little bullhorns.
If we're gonna live under a theocracy, i for one plan on making it a hellscape. At least until I'm arrested for blasphemy.
Fuck Jesus, and fuck anyone who worships the motherfucker
Martin68
(22,800 posts)started with a prayer that ended, "In Jesus's name we ask you..." I don't have an objection to prayer unless it is religion-specific.
phylny
(8,380 posts)with our now disgraced former congressman. The meeting was at a church and began with prayer.
aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)Public prayer can be instructive. Standing there looking around the venue allows you to spot the other free thinkers who are also just standing there looking around.