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3catwoman3

(23,975 posts)
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:22 AM Jun 2022

Public prayer at secular events really pisses me off.

I find it very presumptuous, exclusionary, and “in your face.”

I NEVER presume anyone thinks the way I do about any topic, and I keep my political and spiritual cards close to my vest until I get some indication of how another person looks at things.

Our sons attended the same college, and were both on the soccer team. Their chief rival in their athletic conference was Wheaton College in Wheaton Illinois, a hyper-religious school that declares its belief that Adam and Eve are the historical parents of the whole human race right up front in their Statement of Faith and Educational Purpose section of their web site.

After games, the Wheaton team would gather at the midfield line for a prayer circle, and invite the opposing team to join in. They did this at their own school, which was hard to argue against, but also when they were the visiting team. This irritated me no end, because I thought it was very arrogant to assume that the host schools would welcome this. On your own campus, OK, fine, if you must. When on someone else’s turf, mind your own damn business and pray on the bus on the trip home.

Thanks for nothing, Extreme Court 6 -

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Public prayer at secular events really pisses me off. (Original Post) 3catwoman3 Jun 2022 OP
Me too MuseRider Jun 2022 #1
Well, they've now given us even more to be angry about. Much more. Native Jun 2022 #2
I'm betting that all of those schools are private colleges, so MineralMan Jun 2022 #3
Our sons' college, Carthage College in... 3catwoman3 Jun 2022 #16
Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) have no legal restrictions MineralMan Jun 2022 #23
So many Bible verses they don't remember--like that one about praying in private. CrispyQ Jun 2022 #4
Move over on that bench and make room for me, please Novara Jun 2022 #5
"Extreme Court 6" Totally Tunsie Jun 2022 #6
"And he sentenced his ass to one night of Rehabilitation!" hatrack Jun 2022 #18
it implies that if you do not practice a specific religion ... DBoon Jun 2022 #7
I will not pledge or salute anything and I do not use titles. If your name isn't good enough, we'll brewens Jun 2022 #8
This is a bit off topic. LakeArenal Jun 2022 #9
I hate it too. Years ago the coach of our NFL team (won't say which one) would be on his knees Solomon Jun 2022 #10
Christian Fascism has arrived with a bang, thanks to the Supreme Court. sarcasmo Jun 2022 #11
In 1965 we were on the team bus headed to a game. multigraincracker Jun 2022 #12
I go to mass every Sunday. shrike3 Jun 2022 #13
Two colleagues and I were judges ata campus debate some years ago malaise Jun 2022 #14
True story: Our daughter was the Virginia Lincoln-Douglas state champion one year. phylny Jul 2022 #25
Great story malaise Jul 2022 #27
K&R BlueJac Jun 2022 #15
Recommended. H2O Man Jun 2022 #17
It's just virtue signaling Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jun 2022 #19
Their virtue signaling fell a little short. 3catwoman3 Jun 2022 #21
Yup. I don't encounter it often .. AnrothElf Jun 2022 #20
I agree entirely. I remember being very angry when a public meeting in Culpeper, Virginia Martin68 Jun 2022 #22
We had the same issue in Bedford County phylny Jul 2022 #26
While I agree, aka-chmeee Jun 2022 #24

MineralMan

(146,289 posts)
3. I'm betting that all of those schools are private colleges, so
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:29 AM
Jun 2022

there are really no legitimate legal bars to them holding prayers publicly. I agree that such public praying is annoying, but I don't attend sports events at private colleges, and especially not religious ones.

Wheaton is a very strange place, with a massive set of rules for its students and faculties that restrict all sorts of activities that are not restricted elsewhere.

I learned about Wheaton when the church I attended as a high school student offered me a full ride scholarship there. I declined the offer after doing a bit of research and also since I had no interest in studying theology, etc. at any school. In fact, I was just a couple of years away from becoming an atheist.

Prayer is the stock in trade at Wheaton, and probably at most of the schools where its teams play.

ETA: Checking shows that Wheaton's teams compete primarily with private, church-sponsored colleges, just as I suspected, so the Supreme Court has nothing to say about prayer at such schools.

3catwoman3

(23,975 posts)
16. Our sons' college, Carthage College in...
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 02:08 PM
Jun 2022

…Wisconsin, is loosely associated with the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Very loosely. No chapel attendance requirement. No prayers before or after sporting events. No declaration of faith. All students take 2 religion courses as part of their core curriculum requirements, but that is it.

I think it is a matter of good manners to abide by the customs of the school hosting you. Don’t presume to impose your routines on others, who may not welcome them.

We don’t say grace before meals in our home. If we did, and I were a dinner guest in a home where they did not, there is no way I would impose my ritual on another family.

Wheaton offers a biology major. I would love to audit one of their intro to bio classes and ask the professor, “Hey, prof - if Adam and Eve are the historical parents of the whole human race, did Eve have to commit incest with her sons to produce daughters for them to incestuously mate with? Where did all the other people come from?”

What a bunch of malarkey.

MineralMan

(146,289 posts)
23. Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) have no legal restrictions
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 03:16 PM
Jun 2022

on religious activities whatsoever. They can have them or not have them, in whatever form they please. You are annoyed by such things, but they're not violating any constitutional or legal rules.

Good manners? Well, that college can choose whether or not it will allow religious activities at games. That was my only point. I am an atheist, so I don't engage in any religious activities. I am sometimes, however, in places where they occur. Maybe I've been invited to speak at some Rotary club, something I have done often. I know that they are going to have a prayer before their meeting and probably recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I can chose not to speak there. I am not required to attend any such meeting.

The same thing applies at a private college. It can allow prayers at games, or whatever else it wants to do. Again, I am not required to attend anything that school does.

Government sponsored organizations are another matter. For example, I do not have to be subjected to prayers at school or to visit a local library. If a courtroom had an invocation prayer, it might be that I am required to attend that court. So, I do not expect, nor would I tolerate a prayer being said there before the business of the court proceeded.

Wheaton, unlike Carthage College, is truly a religious college. It graduates many students who become pastors of protestant churches. It is more or less a "Bible College."

ELCA colleges don't generally have worship requirements or religion-based rules for students. Baptist Colleges often do. Some Presbyterian ones do, as well.

Wheaton College sports generally involve other Christian Colleges, although not always. If Carthage allows them to have prayers before the game or afterwards, that's Carthage's decision to make. I have no idea what that school is like.

Malarkey? Yes, absolutely. I agree. However, I have no standing whatsoever to object to their practices, and neither does the law. In fact, what they do is covered by the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Wheaton is a religious college, so its religious activities fall under that amendment's rights. As long as I am not required to participate or even attend any function at Wheaton, they can do as they please, under our laws. Wheaton is not a government function. It is a private organization. What they teach in their Biology classes is not really my business. What they do on the sports field is not, either. I choose not to participate. It's simple.

So, I choose not to attend or participate in any way. You can do the same. So can your offspring. If they are offended by religious practices, they can attend a state college of some kind, I suppose. Or, they can go to Carthage and ignore that stuff. If they go to Wheaton, however, there will be a pledge they have to take, and many, many rules they have to follow at that private institution.

CrispyQ

(36,462 posts)
4. So many Bible verses they don't remember--like that one about praying in private.
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:29 AM
Jun 2022

So sick of these fucking hypocrites shoving their toxic religion down society's throat.

DBoon

(22,366 posts)
7. it implies that if you do not practice a specific religion ...
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:34 AM
Jun 2022

... you do not belong at the event.

It is intentional exclusion.

brewens

(13,582 posts)
8. I will not pledge or salute anything and I do not use titles. If your name isn't good enough, we'll
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:34 AM
Jun 2022

just go with fuck you! To paraphrase Hank Jr, I don't say sir and I don't say ma'am, if you ain't into that, you can kiss my ass!

The flag is nothing but a stinking rag to me until we put this white nationalist crap down. I don't have to respect their superstition or anything they think they have wrong with the crap in their head. I'm done.

LakeArenal

(28,817 posts)
9. This is a bit off topic.
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:36 AM
Jun 2022

Out of respect for a friend I attended an event for a different religion. Millions more people are”blank” than Christian. Anyway, the whole thing was sooo cult-like. I felt like an Hawaiian when the missionaries arrived.

As in the video of that coach praying… the group speak, the slogans, chanting… To me it is grooming.

If, as a human, you lack empathy, kindness, integrity, no religion is going to help you.

As I said out of respect for a friend I did this. I respect others in there journey to god,zen,karma
Or other.

But if you need a Bible to guide you. Try this verse:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Matthew 6:5 -

Solomon

(12,310 posts)
10. I hate it too. Years ago the coach of our NFL team (won't say which one) would be on his knees
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:37 AM
Jun 2022

praying every time he sent the field goal kicker in. I used to get so annoyed. Like if there was a god, she would care about a fucking field goal in a football game!

multigraincracker

(32,675 posts)
12. In 1965 we were on the team bus headed to a game.
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:44 AM
Jun 2022

A guy on the third string, no one liked stood up to offer a prayer. I yelled FUCK YOU Butch. Everyone clapped.

shrike3

(3,586 posts)
13. I go to mass every Sunday.
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:46 AM
Jun 2022

But we live in a country where nones are the fastest growing group. It's more important than ever to maintain the wall between church and state.

malaise

(268,987 posts)
14. Two colleagues and I were judges ata campus debate some years ago
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 11:55 AM
Jun 2022

At the end, one of the UN folks (a Bahai) started both praying and proselytizing rather than simply making closing remarks. I was beyond pissed, got up and walked out followed by my two colleagues.
The next time I saw her I let her know that she broke all rules that day and I don’t play the manners shit when that happens.

phylny

(8,380 posts)
25. True story: Our daughter was the Virginia Lincoln-Douglas state champion one year.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 08:26 AM
Jul 2022

As fate would have it, I met and was close friends years later with a woman who judged one of her competitions at James Madison University. One of the people from Liberty University was judging my daughter and wanted to take points off because she had some CLEAVAGE SHOWING. My daughter is overweight, but was dressed as professionally as she could be for an overweight high school student.

My friend pitched a fit and the Liberty University person stood down.

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(107,960 posts)
19. It's just virtue signaling
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 02:15 PM
Jun 2022

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

3catwoman3

(23,975 posts)
21. Their virtue signaling fell a little short.
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 02:19 PM
Jun 2022

Wheaton’s players were well known for embellishing - lots of taking a dive and acting injured to try to draw a foul.

It was so egregious in one game that I yelled out, “Are you guys all drama majors? So much for that pesky commandment of not bearing false witness.

AnrothElf

(567 posts)
20. Yup. I don't encounter it often ..
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 02:18 PM
Jun 2022

Due to my own choices. But prayer is officially on my shit list. I will interrupt it in any way I can. Including purchasing one of those little bullhorns.

If we're gonna live under a theocracy, i for one plan on making it a hellscape. At least until I'm arrested for blasphemy.

Fuck Jesus, and fuck anyone who worships the motherfucker

Martin68

(22,800 posts)
22. I agree entirely. I remember being very angry when a public meeting in Culpeper, Virginia
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 02:29 PM
Jun 2022

started with a prayer that ended, "In Jesus's name we ask you..." I don't have an objection to prayer unless it is religion-specific.

phylny

(8,380 posts)
26. We had the same issue in Bedford County
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 08:27 AM
Jul 2022

with our now disgraced former congressman. The meeting was at a church and began with prayer.

aka-chmeee

(1,132 posts)
24. While I agree,
Thu Jun 30, 2022, 05:05 PM
Jun 2022

Public prayer can be instructive. Standing there looking around the venue allows you to spot the other free thinkers who are also just standing there looking around.

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