Similarities between exaggerated drag queen shows and "blackface"?

[Progressive Lawyer]

Blackface is almost universally condemned as degrading and insulting to the black community. Should drag queen shows be held to same standard/scrutiny as it pertains to the portrayal of women?

[AkFemDem]

1. Well someone woke up on the

Let’s ruffle some feathers, side of the bed this morning 😅

[greenjar_01]

2. ...

[mahatmakanejeeves]

3. No. NT

[FrankBooth]

4. This is super important

I mean, considering the state of the country right now I just don't see anything that could possibly be more important to talk about than this issue.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. Lol no. Mary Cheney made this shitty comparison a few years back.

The best description I saw is that black face is a lie about race, while drag is an exploration of gender.

[maxsolomon]

6. Mrs. Solomon made this assertion 20+ years ago:

Drag is men insulting women.

I don't know that is it that simple. Drag is marginalized men, gay men, performing versions of femininity (yes, I know about Drag Kings). Is Drag ridicule? Comedy? Is it a tribute? Is it both and neither?

[madville]

23. There are straight drag queens

Used to go to a monthly show in the Bay Area and one of the lead queens was straight, his wife attended all the shows.

[maxsolomon]

24. doesn't really change the question, though.

there's a woman in seattle who performs in drag - as a woman.

they're both exceptions to the general rule.

[demmiblue]

7. Oh, FFS.

[pwb]

8. You mean the Black Race?

Last edited Wed Jul 6, 2022, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)

.

[The Magistrate]

9. Seems Rather Silly, Sir

For one thing, it presupposes a drag performer is attempting to mock women, rather than a present an exaggerated caricature of male constructs of femininity.

[librechik]

34. thank you sir, for the insight.

don't know what the fuck to think these days.

[RobinA]

56. So...

an "exaggerated caricature of male constructs of femininity" isn't done to mock women? Sir, do you have any idea how many male constructs exist for the sole purpose of mocking women? If it were different times, people would see men acting and dressing as women for what it is - exactly the same as black face. These are not those time, so the comparison is not allowed.

[The Magistrate]

65. I Am Not Going To Bother With This, Ma'am

I just found I probably won't have to go to hospital soon, didn't know that for sure this morning.

People were gunned down nearby at a parade, one toddler left an orphan, who doubtless saw both parents die in blood.

A basic human right has been stripped from every woman in the country, by a court clearly contemplating the end of majority rule in Federal elections.

A major war is underway, a war of extraordinary brutality in an antique imperial style, backed by quite modern nuclear weapons held in reserve against contingencies.

I could have been a good deal more scathing in either direction on this, but nobody particularly wants to hear typical attitudes towards women (more properly, 'fish') in a gay bar in the sixties, anymore than they do what you deal with when a teenage boy living out of a bus station.

I take the people doing such shows at their word, it seems the courteous thing to do, having met some.

I promise you I was sorely tempted to reply with merely two syllables, which I expect can be guessed easily....

[Nevilledog]

94. Coulda just used two letters.

[The Magistrate]

95. Sometimes I Just Gotta Unwind, Ma'am

I was getting some of the symptoms put me in hospital over my leukemia several years ago, and by chance had my regular check-up scheduled for today. Doctor's not worried, unless it keeps up a few days more.

I've got a grandkid just starting high school likes drag shows, says most classmates do too, and none of the girls feel disrespected by it. That's good enough for me.

As I get older, I find it more and more necessary to budget my outrage, I've neither the energy nor the time to be in high dudgeon over everything on offer nowadays....

[Nevilledog]

96. I hope the favorable medical news holds steady, my friend.

[Celerity]

123. It is my fervent hope Sir, that all news in re your personal welfare is of a most auspicious nature.

[milestogo]

10. Partial blackface.

Link to tweet

[pnwmom]

12. The difference is that your skin color is genetically determined.

Your clothing and makeup (or lack of it) are just social convention and style.

[Progressive Lawyer]

14. Rachel Dolezal was ostracized for attempting to pass as black.

And it wasn't even the typical "blackface" meant to mock or ridicule.

[pnwmom]

16. But she didn't do blackface, so I don't know how what she did is analogous to drag.

She was trying to pass. Male drag queens aren't trying to pass.

[Progressive Lawyer]

22. I am not saying Rachel Dolezal issue was analogous to drag.

Just highlighting that a person who genuinely identifies with a different race gets widely ridiculed, but one who overtly exaggerates a different gender is seen in a different light...not condemning this either though, just looking for discussion.

[pnwmom]

30. But there is nothing essential about fancy clothing and makeup to a woman's identity.

There is something essential about a Black person's skin to their identity.

A drag queen isn't exaggerating a different gender, just a certain style of fancy clothing and makeup, which anyone could wear.

Just like these wigs aren't associated with a particular gender.

[Progressive Lawyer]

31. I thought drag queens were exaggerating the female gender. But I could be wrong.

[Duncan Grant]

37. How did you miss post #9? (nt)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

68. How did you miss post #5? Blackface is a lie. Drag is exploring gender. . . .nt

[meadowlander]

97. Unless you're born trans.

[pnwmom]

100. Not sure what you're saying.

Styles in clothing and makeup are just styles, not something anyone is born with.

[meadowlander]

107. Gender dysphoria likely does have a genetic component.

Some people feel compelled from as soon as they can remember to identify in a particular way and to signal that via the way that they dress and present themselves. And in that sense I don't think you can reduce trans identity to just "styles of clothing and makeup" which are a choice that people make as opposed to race which is the way someone is born.

[pnwmom]

108. I'm saying the same thing you are.

You can't reduce ANYONE's identity to styles of clothing and makeup. And both cis and trans people can (but don't have to) signal their gender with styles of clothing and makeup.

Drag queens aren't mocking women the way people in blackface are mocking Black people.

[meadowlander]

110. I think it's problematic because they can be read as mocking trans people.

Is it exactly the same as blackface? No.

But I think it's still problematic because you have people who are generally not in a particular group pretending to be in that group for the consumption, entertainment, and laughter of other people who are not in that group.

I'm not saying that it always is, and I think there's a distinction to be made between drag (for fun or self expression at a Pride Parade as an example) and the drag show industry where the consumers are primarily cis people out for a laugh or a spectacle.

I don't find it inherently funny or outrageous or titillating for a person with one set of genitals to dress like a person with a different set of genitals. That's just my life.

If people genuinely want to express themselves and play around with their gender identity creatively more power to them. But my experience of drag shows are drunk sailors, frat boys and people at bachelor or stag parties going to have a laugh at trans people. Oh and my boss at one Christmas party putting on a dress and expecting all of us to find it hilarious. Because cross-dressing.

I do think or at least hope that in 100 years a more enlightened society that accepts gender fluidity as an everyday thing is going to look back at professional drag revues in the same way we look back on minstrel shows and circus freak shows with a great big "WhyTF was that a thing?"

Did circus freak shows provide employment for marginalised disabled people and potentially even a safe community where they could be accepted as themselves? Yes. Was it OK for "normal" people to pay to see it? Not really. And I know it's not going to be a popular thing to say, but I sort of think the same is true about drag shows.

[pnwmom]

114. Okay, I get what you're saying.

And I admit to never having been to a drag show -- though I have been close to a number of gay people, including my father, and a nonbinary person as well. But I don't really know what the atmosphere is like at a drag show.

I'm just saying that, as a woman who almost never wears makeup and is most comfortable in jeans or slacks, I personally don't strongly associate makeup or clothing with gender. I'm just as much a woman as my sister who dyes her hair and Botoxes her wrinkles and applies foundation every day. So I can see someone in drag on TV and not think of the person as looking particularly feminine. I just see someone in a slinky dress costume, batting false eyelashes.

[Duncan Grant]

13. Black face and drag are equivalent? How come? (nt)

[PA_jen]

15. NO! There is no similarities at least to this female. I love and admire Drag Queens

What they do is art and empowerment.

I don't find what they do degrading to women. In fact I see it as a compliment.

[MustLoveBeagles]

116. I love them too

I even count a few of them as friends.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Matters not gender of person dragging, but skin color does matter to blackface

It doesn't matter what colour of skin or chromosome set or self-identified gender or physical characteristics (natural or surgically modified) of the person doing the drag. It doesn't matter if they self-identify as X or male or female or two-spirit.

If a PERSON wants to wear a dress and makeup and flounce around, let them do so unmolested.



Just like men should not tell women what to wear, people should not tell people whether they can wear dresses or not.

[Raine1967]

25. +1 nt

[róisín_dubh]

18. No.

[delisen]

19. I think only if it is combined with keeping women out of our public space

We must not give an inch on the right of all to the public space.

I see drag as satire. If laws or even custom were to dictate that females cannot equally share and advance themselves in the public space then it might become oppression.

The recent high court decision is a move to deny women their right to the public space we cannot let it stand.

[sarisataka]

20. What do we say to the God of death

[jcgoldie]

21. Well you managed to

...be quasi offensive to both people demeaned by the tradition of blackface and to transgender people expressing themselves in drag. Nice.

[Spazito]

26. Wow...just...Wow.

[Raine1967]

27. Progressive lawyers know the difference.

Blackface is based in racism.

Drag is expressionism.

One mocks, the other celebrates.

I have a question. What are "exaggerated drag queen shows"? do you have a presupposition that some are not or should be less exaggerated?

Signed,
A Woman.

[Progressive Lawyer]

29. Was the 80's movie "Soul Man" based in racism?

https://www.today.com/popculture/revisiting-blackface-comedy-soul-man-t232579

[Raine1967]

35. I didn't watch the movie as it was offensive then and now. That said, your OP

isn't about a horribly offensive movie. Drag is not offensive.


And before you ask, I loved 'To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar'

It was not based on the suppression of others to get ahead. Your example is a poor, progressive lawyer. Your line of questioning is poor. Your queries are bad faith ones.

Good day.

[Progressive Lawyer]

36. You said "black face" was based on racism. I cited an 80's black face movie that challenges...

...your assertion.

[Raine1967]

40. I also said good day. nt

[Progressive Lawyer]

43. I agree, it is a good day.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. No you are wrong. It does not challenge the assertion

The plot element IS about racism.

The blackface was not racist regarding the actors and their abilities or about cultural appropriation or mocking black people.

It was about a white person (the fictional character) being so stupid that they create a racist FRAUD that backfires badly on them.

The racism was in the fiction, not on the set or in the screenwriters' room.

[Oneironaut]

46. Plz read up on minstrel shows.

You’ll realize the racist history of black face.

[tenderfoot]

105. Pricilla, Queen of the Desert

Great film! Won an Oscar for best costumes as well.

[Raine1967]

111. I need to watch that film!

I have heard of it buy never got around to watching it.

Thanks for showing that the OP's premise is dishonest.

Thanks, tenderfoot.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

42. Does NOT apply. Entertainment drag queens are not trying to fraudulently scam scholarships

I think you really did NOT need to rake up a non-controversy about an ancient movie.

Non-controversy because the black actor in the movie (Rae Dawn Chong) is completely at ease with the blackface of the guy playing opposite her. The black face was for the point of creating and exposing a (fictional) fraud. Sure seems to me like it was respectable plot vehicle. It was NOT blackface to mock blacks. It was NOT blackface to mock blackness. It was NOT cultural appropriation.

Raking it up has similarities to trolling.

Likewise, I think your OP was completely unnecessary. And if you don't get why, then you need to read this thread in detail for an education on the issue.

[Progressive Lawyer]

45. That's why I cited Soul Man...it is black face yet arguably not racist.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

50. You miss the point. It is NOT analogous to drag queens reading at libraries. NOT in any way

That there exist non-racist uses of blackface does NOT mean that most uses of blackface in reality ARE NOT racist.

Most uses of black face are racist.

On the other side of your non-analogy, ...

Most uses of female impersonation are NOT misogynistic or sexist, though there are plenty of examples.

That there exist some misuses of female impersonation (like the July 4th shooter) does NOT mean that most female impersonations are sexist or are misogynistic.

You are missing the logic.

Analogies require strict parallelism or they are useless. Your analogies are useless in the OP and in the Blues Brothers post.

[Progressive Lawyer]

54. I'm not talking about drag queens reading in libraries. I am talking about drag queen shows.

Although there are likely several types of shows that I am not familiar with.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

57. Oh, NOW you explain that. It is still NOT analogous. You miss the basic point of the role

In the movie's fictional space, the blackface is used for fictional FRAUD for fictional gain.

What part of FRAUD do you not understand?

A drag queen show is NOT a fraud, nor is it depicting a fraud.

[Progressive Lawyer]

66. I never said drag queen shows are fraud. I suggested that black face is used for entertainment...

...and drag queen shows seems to be used for that purpose as well.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

71. In THIS day and age, blackface is NOT used for entertainment

Not legitimately.

But even back in the 80s in the movie it was used legitimately in a karmic way. It was not the blackface that was entertaining, it was the FRAUDULENT use of it that was entertaining, definitively so because of the karma in the movie.

Get with the program.

[Progressive Lawyer]

73. Wrong, here are several examples of Black Face in entertainment in the past 20 years.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/25/opinion/blackface-tv-movies-race.html

[Bernardo de La Paz]

76. Post links people can actually read. . . . nt

[Progressive Lawyer]

78. Sorry, I realize I pay for the NY Times. But here is a free list:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/06/blackface-tv-episodes-30-rock-scrubs-community-snl.html

[Bernardo de La Paz]

83. I'm not going to analyze them all, but the first one (30 Rock) bombs your hypothesis to hell

The blackface described there is NOT the entertainment.

The STUPIDITY of the character is the entertainment.

[jmowreader]

33. They're probably like porn, in that "you'll know one when you see it"

The thing is, drag is all about exaggeration. Very few biological women would ever wear as much makeup or as wild of outfits as drag performers do. Hence, in the eyes of the Hard Right ALL drag queen shows fall into the "exaggerated" category.

[Raine1967]

39. Agreed. That said...

I wore a hella lot of makeup at art school in NYC in the 80's. My hir was pretty legendary even when I wasn't wearing a wig!

And no, Not sharing the evidence... I had gay men fic my makeup before I went clubs. -- they wouldn't let me out of the dorm look a hot mess.

[tenderfoot]

104. Much like lions...

Progressive Lawyers don't have to prove that they're progressive or a lawyer.

[Raine1967]

112. ...

[obamanut2012]

28. Not a fish

Not taking this bait.

[Whiskeytide]

32. Ha. I alway liked the expression ...

… “sniffs bait, swims away”.

At least that’s what all the fish do when I have a rod in the water.

[MineralMan]

41. Any fish bite if you got good bait.

That's a little something I'd like to relate.

I'm goin' fishin', yes I'm goin' fishin. Baby's goin' fishin' too.

[obamanut2012]

49. lol they do for me whenever I surf fish!

[Oneironaut]

48. Next up on the docket: "Are transgenders shape-shifting reptiles?"

I’m going to take the centrist opinion and say that we’re cold-blooded humanoids that feast on unwitting travelers in the night.

[obamanut2012]

51. Oh, I am waiting for something like that

I eye rolled so hard when I saw the OP, Oneironaut.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

55. Most of my neighbors are radical Republiqans. Do you have travel plans?

I'll pay bus fare and provide lodging. Bring friends.

Assuming, of course, such meat is digestible and non-toxic.

[Oneironaut]

89. Ewww! Their brains are already rotten.

MAGAts have chewed more pathways in their lobes than a rotten apple! Tastes like dog shit!

[Hermit-The-Prog]

90. Yep, MAGAts are an indicator of rot and decay.

We may have to find some gullible zombies somewhere to help.

[Ms. Toad]

87. Please do not use transgender as a noun. n/t

[Oneironaut]

88. Pffft! I know all about them transgenders!

/s I’m a trans woman / shit-posting / not being serious. However, I appreciate you looking out for us.

[Ms. Toad]

91. You're welcome.

Since I don't recognize everyone's name - and way too many folks around here use it as a noun . . .

[Oneironaut]

92. It's impossible to tell satire anymore.

Newsmax put out a story today (which was posted on DU) about how the end-game of Liberalism is cannibalism.

Comedy is dead.

[Ms. Toad]

99. Unfortunately you are correct.

And, unfortunately, I more frequently encounter trans-hostility or sometimes simple ignorance on DU than satire.

[MineralMan]

38. Yeah, No.

I'm not seeing it at all. Nope.

[Sympthsical]

47. Liberation vs oppression

Drag is meant as expressive liberation. It's intended as a freedom of self-identity.

Black face was always intended to mock. Particularly with "coon characters" who were used to reinforce negative stereotypes about black people.

If you can't see a difference in these things, I don't know what to tell you.

[Progressive Lawyer]

52. I'd disagree b/c the 80's movie Soul Man is black face, but it isn't meant to mock.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

61. Your assertion of analogy has been decisively nixed upthread. Drag shows are not FRAUDS

The movie condemns blackface. The screenplay depicts blackface being FRAUDulently used for personal gain and then condemns the fraud by laying karma on the character.

Drag shows and drag queen library readings do not have any element of FRAUD.

[Progressive Lawyer]

70. Except I never said drag queen shows have elements of fraud....

Rather, I highlighted that that blackface is used for entertainment. And that perhaps that entertainment purpose is a shared factor with drag queen shows.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

72. Get with the program. In THIS day and age, blackface is NOT used for entertainment

Not legitimately.

But even back in the 80s in the movie it was used legitimately in a karmic way. It was not the blackface that was entertaining, it was the FRAUDULENT use of it that was entertaining, definitively so because of the karma in the movie.

[Progressive Lawyer]

75. Wrong. Here are sever examples of Black Face in entertainment from the past 20 years.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/25/opinion/blackface-tv-movies-race.html

[Bernardo de La Paz]

77. Post links that people can actually read. . . . nt

[Progressive Lawyer]

80. Here you go:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/06/blackface-tv-episodes-30-rock-scrubs-community-snl.html

[Bernardo de La Paz]

81. I'm not going to analyze them all, but the first one (30 Rock) bombs your hypothesis to hell

The blackface described there is NOT the entertainment.

The STUPIDITY of the character is the entertainment.

[Progressive Lawyer]

82. You said black face is not used in entertainment anymore. These cites prove you wrong.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

85. Your first cite contradicts that hypothesis. USED FOR is not USED AS

You confuse the two. And you insist on doing so, illogically. You are confusing the map with the territory.

The blackface is used FOR condemnation of stupidity of characters. It is their stupidity that is entertaining.

The blackface is not used AS entertainment.



UNDERSTAND THIS: IN 2022, BLACKFACE IS NOT ENTERTAINMENT.

Just like in 2022 getting blown up in an explosion is not entertainment, but Wile E. Coyote is stupid enough to be entertaining.

[Progressive Lawyer]

86. That fact that most of these entertainment shows have been pulled or edited...

..suggests that even their creators or producers now acknowledge their faux pas regardless of whether the black face was used "for" or "as" entertainment.

And I am just not talking about the first one on the list.

[Sympthsical]

63. At some point, the historical context is enough to dissuade use

30 Rock used blackface in a few episodes. They weren't meant to mock either. In fact, the use of blackface was meant to reinforce how clueless, self-centered, and idiotic white characters were being. However, sometimes intent misses and sometimes good intentions simply hit a mark unintended.

It's why you don't see comedy sketches centered on beating your wife. Even if you could somehow make the scenario hilarious, why would you ever even get close to a context that's going to dredge up those highly charged emotions? Some things exist within their own contexts and should be avoided.

I've seen Soul Man (unfortunately). The blackface isn't the only part of that mess that isn't great.

I'm a gay man. I have friends who do drag. I'm around the community often enough. The drag itself is not what is entertaining. It's not, "OMG, I'm dressed as a woman, it's hilarious!" It's the performance, the context, and oftentimes the cultural critiques layered in. A man in a dress is just a man in a dress. Drag is an entirely different creature and cultural product on its own.

Also, this helps:

[MustLoveBeagles]

118. This

[FreeState]

53. hard no

and unless you're queer and or black you shouldn't be asking the question in my opinion, it's divisive.

[RobinA]

59. It's Devisive

because it's a forbidden question, but one that begs for an answer.

[FreeState]

60. No it doesn't

If he really wanted an answer he would not have posted it in GD. He is making LGBT folks feel uncomfortable on DU.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

64. Don't you mean "divisive"? Who devised a new word?

And your post begs the question of what might be divisive, the drag queens reading or asking the question about the drag queens.

That was an unclear post.

[Whiskeytide]

79. Oh that was pretty damn good. Nicely done. n/t

[Torchlight]

67. This may help you to understand. I came across it the day I signed up here.

After reading this thread, it appears that all questions currently being asked, and all counter-concerns currently being created are addressed, in one way or another, on the thread I've linked. Very substantive information to be gained. Hope it helps.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215969127

[Corgigal]

58. Ha....

Not in the least. Ru looks beautiful..

&feature=share

[RobinA]

62. They Should Both

be held to scrutiny or neither should be.

[Duncan Grant]

74. Black face and drag are equivalent? How come? (nt)

[MustLoveBeagles]

117. I'm not gettig it either

[FreepFryer]

69. 68 replies, 0 recs. Im glad the community knows hateful anti-LGBT bullshit propaganda on sight...

...even if it doesn't always excise the worst of it.

[maxsolomon]

106. did you alert on it?

personally, I am shocked this post isn't locked yet. or has multiple posts hidden.

[FreeState]

120. I did

and now I can no longer for 24 hours - once again locking out LGBT posters from moderation. There is still a problem here. I could not even send a note to explain to those outside my community as to why this is harmful.

[Politicub]

84. This take sounds like something my rw aunt would post

on Facebook to sound clever.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

93. How do drag kings fit into your paradigm then?

[meadowlander]

98. I'm sure I'll get roasted for this but as a trans person I really don't like drag.

It seems to me like an industry set up so that drunk cis men can have a laugh at the expense of men *titter titter* dressing like women(!) while marginalised people who would have trouble finding any other employment because of their gender identity can at least eke out some kind of a living being themselves. That seems to me the more obvious comparison to blackface than its negative portrayal of exaggerated female stereotypes.

How have we has a society not grown up enough to see that there's actually nothing all that taboo or scandalous or even out of the ordinary about people wearing clothing from the "opposite" gender whatever that means?

I'm sure there's an opposing argument to make that its a celebration of gender fluidity and a space for people to express themselves creatively or something but my experience has been primarily that the customers are drunk cis people having a laugh at the expense of "trannies".

It's taking my lived experience and making it a comedy spectacle for people who are not capable of really understanding that experience. And in that sense I think it does have similarities to blackface.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

101. Thank you for a thoughtful post on your feelings and experience

I've never felt the desire to go to a drag show or watch one on media, so I've never seen one.

But I feel drawing a line around them or library readings is not needed, not like drawing a line around blackface is needed.

[maxsolomon]

103. I'm not going to roast you for that opinion.

SOME (not all, maybe not most) Ciswomen also feel mocked by it, even if that is not the intention of the performers.

[Sympthsical]

109. Drag queens aren't typically trans

It was actually a bit of a big deal when RuPaul's Drag Race had its first actual trans-woman in the competition. I stopped watching it some time ago, but I think they even had a straight man in a recent season.

The overwhelming majority of drag queens are gay men. It's a performance art and is deeply rooted in gay culture. Most patrons of gay bars featuring drag are well aware that it's a performance and that there are cis gay men under the layers of make up. I'm sure plenty of straight people who lack knowledge confuse drag and trans.

But we don't move through our lives constantly changing who we are and what we do just because some straight people somewhere don't get it. That's not an acceptable litmus.

If we stopped doing things because heterosexuals didn't understand it or didn't approve, we'd be a deeply boring people.

[maxsolomon]

113. you might want to re-read #98

that's not what their post said - they are giving their opinion as a trans person.

[Sympthsical]

115. I read it just fine

And as a gay man who's been marinating in my community's culture for a long time and researched its history extensively, I think the poster is reading intent into something that is not present and misunderstands the roots of that form of performance art.

I didn't misunderstand. I disagreed.

Different things.

[Torchlight]

102. Try this.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215969127

Every question you've posed is addressed in the link provided. I'm not a bright guy, but it pointedly gave answers, explicitly as well as implicitly, that may better serve your concerns.

That being done, if you could support your own hypothesis and conclusion regarding your original question, and illustrate for us the path you took to arrive there... that alone, if done with sincerity, would probably establish good faith maybe seen currently as lacking or underwhelming.

[BannonsLiver]

119. Imagine thinking this is somehow relevant

As I often say here, this is why we lose. There’s not enough face palms in the world….

[Grolph_]

121. I've been to both types of show during my life

They are not the same.

The hate in black face entertainment was punching down and reinforcing racism, fighting against evolution.

Drag shows are fun.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

122. Ummmm... No.

I don't think it's my job to educate anyone here on the history of blackface, and how there is nothing positive about that. There is nothing empowering about blackface. There is no "self-expression" about blackface. It's frowned upon, and rightfully so. Blackface's history is full of scorn, mockery and punching down, reducing blacks to stereotypes and satire. Even in cases like Jimmy Kimmel's parodies of Karl Malone (which thank goodness he has apologized for and sees how that was wrong), it was being done to make a mockery of a single black person.

On top of that, even growing up before knowing the history, it just felt wrong anytime I'd see it. Don't ask me to explain it. I can't. It's just one of those things that when an old clip or skit would be shown back then, I'd shake my head. "This is wrong. This is awful." I can't explain why, just that even then I'd be disturbed by seeing blackface. Now obviously I know, and I'd have to think everyone here does too.

I'll start this part by saying that, yes, there have been occasions where drag has been used to mock women... Occasions.

There is plenty of material at your fingertips, thanks to the internet. There is plenty of material at your fingertips, thanks to RuPaul's career and RuPaul's drag race and other such examples. Here in 2022, there are far fewer examples of Flip Wilson and far more positive examples.

Obviously, with the life I've lived and the background I have, I've encountered people all over the gender scale. Cis male. Cis female. Trans male. Trans female. Nonbinary or gender fluid. Gay people who crossdress. Straight people who crossdress.

Every single person I've ever met who crossdresses (and a few have done drag or female impersonation) has seen it as a form of self-expression, something empowering, something comforting. Maybe it's a case of "I have a female side too. Her name is *insert name here* and this is what she looks like." Maybe it's a case of finding it comfortable to crossdress. Maybe it's a case of exploring themselves, and their own thoughts and feelings.

As for the ones who perform? Each and every one finds it empowering. It's not "Ha ha! This is a woman! Isn't she pathetic!?" It's "Check me out! Aren't I fabulous?!" And in some of those cases, it's a case of "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." I've known a couple Madonnas. One Cher. And a few others. In every case, it's been "I love *insert famous woman here* and I love that I get to perform and be her!" What they do is no more harmful than what a friend of mine does. He resembles Santa Claus to begin with. So he goes out, year-round, making appearances as Santa to spread joy and happiness.

If this is a case of thinking "Well, blackface is outrageous and so is drag..." Yes, but not in the same way. And many of us who don't crossdress (either because we're cis and happy with who we are, or trans and being who we are) make our own outrageous fashion statements. Tammy Faye could give a drag queen a run for their money when it came to makeup. I'm rather fond of wearing boots that... well, they sure aren't made for hiking.

So, I don't know what to tell you outside of wrong, wrong, wrong. Because punching down and self-expression are just not the same.

In closing though... I would love to know what exactly is a "exaggerated drag show"? Because I can't say that sounds so flattering or empowering.