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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy guess to why Cipollone came clean, assuming he did.
Last edited Sat Jul 9, 2022, 08:59 AM - Edit history (1)
From my experiences with bad political lawyers, they suddenly remember their ethical obligations when "word gets out on the street." That's an actual quote from a bad, good ole boy style lawyer in Central Florida. These are the kind of lawyers that work both the private and public sector. You'll find them as City or County lawyers at the same time that they represent private companies that are seeking approval from government.
It isn't uncommon for them to be members of, or even president of the Chamber of Commerce. With the connections they make working both sectors, it is easy for them to control the information that elected officials have in order to make decisions that will benefit the lawyer's clients, and their own pockets.
Because privacy is key to this process, communications are usually through phone calls. Back at the turn of the Millennium, I had a conversation with a group of ex-commissioners and they all told me the same thing. The City attorney would contact them by phone before City meetings and conversations would always be the same. He would impart the information and would say, I have already talked to so and so and they told me they're leaning in favor. Hard to argue with the lawyer when he's the one controlling the information on a subject they may know very little about. Especially when the lawyer goes out of his way to make them feel special, like telling them, "Don't worry, I've got your back." And they did feel special up until the moment they lost an election and were swiftly ghosted. He wouldn't even take their phone calls.
As you would expect, "regular" people who became part of this network believed they were suddenly bullet proof. They see another world that bends the rules to get whatever objective the government is reaching for under the guise of "public good." What happens when these people begin to weave their own personal objectives into this backwater framework? I can write that story.
Bottomline, lawyers can't control all that can go wrong when elected officials start to ad lib. This backwater world only works when there is secrecy and discretion. It is, afterall, a backwater, backroom, shadow government that they're running. Unfortunately for them, the most ethically fluid people may be the easiest ones to use, but they're also the most unpredictable. They talk, they're braggarts. And word finally gets out on the street.
I have to say that locally, they did a great job of tamping down on the public that caught on and tried to expose the group that went rogue here in the nineties, even when word got on the street. I could write that story. Fear mongering, bullying, and defamation. That's how they managed to silence everyone.
The only way out of this rabbit hole is through a formal investigation that will force the lawyers to talk. And some of them will talk because they know that it's the only way to save what's left of their professional reputation. Without it, you become a Giuliani. Someone who the public sees as a cross between a charlatan and con-man. I'm willing to bet that Cipollone is a step or two above Giuliani. He's the kind that will talk because word is now out on the street.
And for that, we have Cassidy Hutchinson and the J6 Committee to thank. You need both to break the pattern.
MyOwnPeace
(17,284 posts)Loved this part: "the most ethically fluid people may be the easiest ones to use, but they're also the most unpredictable."
Doesn't THAT describe many in IQ45's 'Cabinet!'
However, I do believe that MOST of the "ONLY THE BEST" crew were devoid of any 'ethics.'
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)came on the scene. The patterns are remarkably similar. I wonder if it has to do with the country club environment, where everyone feels like they have to outdo each other?
MyOwnPeace
(17,284 posts)Are they:
1. feeling they have to 'outdo' each other.....
or:
2. Just 'livin' the life' in which they feel a certain "entitlement......." (thinking of IQ45's kids here.....)
SharonAnn
(13,920 posts)From a 2012 Newsweek article about child sex abuse in the Catholic Church.
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)That is one thing about Central Florida that really makes me wary. Some of the women must have grown up believing that in order to thrive, they have to do it by gaining respect from these insular groups of men who do bad things. And it kind of makes sense in a small town way, to take up their causes and learn their secrets, since you'll need their support when things go to shit.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)Good quote
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)That's what happens when you know you are fucked. In time, many more people are going to turn in order to save their asses. I think it's safe to say Cipollone threw people in Trumps inner circle under the bus yesterday.
getagrip_already
(17,614 posts)Not taking the fifth is not the same as cooperating fully.
He could have given a lot of one word answers where a paragraph was called for.
He could have given a 10 minute non answer to a simple question.
What we believe is that he has no immunity shield, and that he is not going to voluntarily incriminate himself.
That is not dumping your guts. He could have, but I suspect he gave the least amount of information he could to answer direct questions.
LudwigPastorius
(11,288 posts)Cipallone may have said very little regarding Trump directly.
Zoe Lofgren said that there were complications concerning attorney/client privilege after he delivered his testimony.
Cracklin Charlie
(12,904 posts)That he has 10 kids, or something like that.
He surely doesnt want to go to prison.
Mr.Bill
(24,903 posts)in a house with 10 kids?
carry on.
Cracklin Charlie
(12,904 posts)It was a crazy place during the teen years. I dont know how the parents kept from shackling us all. Sometimes, there would be thirty kids there on just a random afternoon. It was fun.
Novara
(6,115 posts)... because he worked in that administration. But his job as White House counsel was to advise on the legality and ethics ( ! ) of policy, decisions, and actions of the administration.
I have not seen any rumblings that in his official capacity, he tried to cover things up or weasel around legalities. Maybe he did that in some cases and I am not aware of it. But we do know that he was against the march of the mob to the Capitol on 1/6 and in his capacity as White House counsel was advising against leading the mob. That makes him a voice of reason. What else did he warn against?
And the inference I draw is that it likely isn't the only time he advised against some illegal, unethical, and/or flat-out criminal activity the orange motherfucker was about to take. And THAT makes his testimony potentially nuclear-level explosive. He is perhaps the one person in that administration who may have pushed back at illegality and criminal actions. And maybe got rebuffed along the way. In other words, he knows where the bodies are buried.
The orange motherfucker SHOULD be scared shitless.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Novara
(6,115 posts)But it doesn't mean that he won't toss everyone else under the bus to save his own ass. He cautioned against doing illegal things. Whether or not they listened to him IS EVERYTHING. So in that, he is very valuable to the J6 committee and possibly the DOJ.
He WANTED the subpoena. He wanted to testify but he wanted to be forced to do it, to protect his ass. His motivation was probably to save his own ass at the expense of others.
He's an interesting character n this drama. He may have only been advising against certain actions because it was his job. But if those he advised went against his advice and took illegal action anyway, their criminality is even more egregious. And he has the receipts. He's the one person who can say, "Yes, he knew it was illegal and he went ahead and did it," with complete authority.
Cippolone didn't "turn." He's saving his ass by telling the committee that yeah, he warned these motherfuckers against doing exactly what they did. They knew it was illegal. As far as I can tell he did his job. At least on 1/6. I can't speak for the rest of his tenure.
ancianita
(39,093 posts)still be the loyal Republican voter he's always been. I can't believe that such intelligence takes such a low moral stance as he did when he spoke at the first impeachment trial. He just fed into the narrative of the "good president" then, and how tfg's removal would nullify the Republican voters, poor dears -- but he didn't mention electoral college vote, since Hillary actually won the popular vote.
What a closet apologist for the country's weakest link in election law. What an asshole.
leftieNanner
(15,777 posts)Rush Limbaugh fan!
That makes him a bad guy, IMHO.
Novara
(6,115 posts)Jeebus, people are not all black or white. If he can nail the orange motherfucker, I am assuming you guys would be okay with that, right?
leftieNanner
(15,777 posts)I'm sure he has valuable information for the Committee. I was just commenting about the fact that, like all of the people from that administration, he will try to rehabilitate his image. See: Bill Barr.
The time for all of those people to speak out was when it happened, not when the book deal dropped.
Novara
(6,115 posts)But IMO, since he tried to do what was right (on 1/6 at least), he's got more of a reputation to salvage and I don't begrudge him that. I don't like him, I don't trust him, but he could possibly be sending the orange motherfucker to prison with his testimony so I appreciate that he was willing to talk with the committee. And he talked for over eight hours! Imagine the stuff he told them.
leftieNanner
(15,777 posts)Would have loved to be a fly on the wall.
tblue37
(66,066 posts)Novara
(6,115 posts)It doesn't mean he doesn't have valuable information for the J6 committee.
Honestly, people. Try seeing nuance. It's good to open your minds. Cippolone doing his job on 1/6 means only good things for the side of justice.
Let me put it this way:
He repeatedly cautioned the orange motherfucker against criminal activity. He can show that the orange motherfucker knew damn well the what he was doing was illegal. It is now much less likely he can try and use the defense that he didn't know it was illegal.
Get it now? See how valuable a witness he is?
tblue37
(66,066 posts)Novara
(6,115 posts)I am taking a wait and see stance. I think he has really valuable knowledge that can blow the whole shebang wide open. I hope he shared it with the committee during yesterday's testimony.
I assume everyone who worked in that administration has questionable ethics. That includes Cassidy Hutchinson. But some of them seem to care about doing what's right at this point. Maybe they're doing it only to save their asses. Wouldn't you spill all to save yours? If it leads to convictions I'm all for it.
We can despise everything these people stand for and still be glad they're talking to the committee. It doesn't hurt to have both feelings.
meadowlander
(4,777 posts)I can't speak to how genuine his beliefs are but he's up to his neck in memberships in religious organisations who probably aren't thrilled to see one of their representatives dragged out into public with Trump's dirty laundry.
He's only 56 and has ten kids as well. I don't know his financial situation but presumably he's not ready to pack up his professional career and retire because no one reputable will ever hire him again.
Between the two of those, I imagine there's a pretty strong motivation to cooperate as much as he can with the investigation.
Maybe I'm naive but I would think someone who's life work has been the law would understand that once you're in the cross-hairs the worst thing you can do is be caught lying or withholding. And given how useless and inept Trump and co were at everything, the odds that you are going to be able to conceal anything by lying or withholding are basically nil. So why throw yourself under the bus for some idiot who dug his own grave while abusing you and trying to drag you down with him.
There's a point where naked self-interest kicks in as well as integrity. So whether he's an actual good guy or an actual bad guy is less important than what a rational guy who knows how the law works would do.
PJMcK
(23,196 posts)From Wikipedia:
He's a hard-core Republican. He's also trying to cover his own ass.
Here's the rest, if you're interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Cipollone
msfiddlestix
(7,932 posts)And oh hell yes, I want to read those stories!
Great post!
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)msfiddlestix
(7,932 posts)I'd love to read them!
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)msfiddlestix
(7,932 posts)Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)ancianita
(39,093 posts)FakeNoose
(36,234 posts)Don McGahn was fired before Chump got impeached (the first time) but I do recall that he cooperated with the Mueller investigation. McGahn actually spent a week talking to Mueller before Chump put a stop to the whole thing.
I'm not sure if Cipollone was already in the legal office with McGahn, or did he come in later after McGahn was fired? They are both ultra-conservative lawyers, and probably Federalist Society members as well. It's interesting that both lawyers drew the line in the sand against Chump, and both finally bailed on him.
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)Even if it just involves self-preservation.
Just makes what the Supreme Court conservatives are doing even more perplexing.
jaxexpat
(7,794 posts)The sheer exploding volume of shit from their antics masks the whole, camouflaging the odd bits of flotsam which may occasionally drift from their bench. Those components of their intention which would reveal what they're up to must be desperately secret, even if for only a few months.
It's safe to say that these robed charlatans are highly partisan operators. Republicans are expecting a great trouncing in the midterms. They would lean on their strengths in any attempt to reinforce their hand. This is critical in the lead up to November 2022.
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)That is the truth. These are not independent thinkers. Their backgrounds can be traced back to the 2000 election nightmare, at least for Kavanaugh.
msfiddlestix
(7,932 posts)I don;t reall any reports revealing what was shared in his interviews,,
wonder if there is a transcript posted somewhere?
FakeNoose
(36,234 posts)Of the pages that weren't blacked out, several did have several references to McGahn's testimony.
Apparently he was a help to Mueller, but we never got to see the whole report, as you probably recall.
dalton99a
(85,265 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)Much appreciated.
duckworth969
(966 posts)Yeah, Ive also heard he has a rep he wants to protect (as best he can) so he continue to work in Washington. And you will see that in how much he dishes out. Probably counting on giving a certain amount, then after others testify and give him some cover, he might dole what he has as it benefits him. A type of political poker as it were.
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)Yes, these attorneys are very clever. They give something up to keep you busy on an issue that doesn't directly affect them or their interested parties.
Stuart G
(38,726 posts)Perhaps, this will send Trump to prison. We will see. (note I said. " perhaps"
cilla4progress
(26,007 posts)That the orange menace regularly insulted him in front of others - berating him as a terrible lawyer.
No doubt, because he was less corruptible.
H2O Man
(75,975 posts)Add Jared's insulting him while testifying.
cilla4progress
(26,007 posts)Called him a whiner...
H2O Man
(75,975 posts)I don't think Jared expected that clip to be played.
rubbersole
(8,839 posts)Involving a new position of incredible power, "County Mayor (manager)" that was controlled by the most powerful lawyer in town. It was exposed by a great local reporter. The reporter eventually had to publicly apologize and was soon thereafter fired. Business as usual. Nothing to see here, just move on. (And yes, I'm talking about Linda Chapin, Charlie Gray and Bob Morris. Thank you, BB!)
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)corruption...in Miami. South Florida. Back when it was a Democratic stronghold. Can't remember if it was federal investigation, or State. But I always wondered why they gave Central Florida a pass.
I also remember they went after Mildred Fernandez, a latina. I hardly cared when she said, "I'm one of the elite." Or was it, one of the good ones. I know exactly what she was trying to say. All I can think about was that being a member of a minority group and trying to pretend you can run with the crooked pack is a foolish thing to do in Central Florida.
BTW, my situation occurred in Seminole County. Also involving "the most powerful lawyer in town."
uponit7771
(92,131 posts)yonder
(10,019 posts)Thanks for your angle on this.
Pluvious
(4,843 posts)Bucky
(55,334 posts)gordianot
(15,540 posts)Never ever speak to a lawyer over the phone refer them without taking a message to your school attorney. It puts you on the clock sometimes but saves you grief in the long run. This was a hard and fast rule from our school attorneys.
Martin Eden
(13,677 posts)... do they realize their own exposure to the crimes of their clients?
nowforever
(416 posts)I would like to be optimistic but he is not John Dean. He is a cockroach on the kitchen floor that scurries quickly when the light is switched on. How forthcoming would he be, if in doing so, he jeopardizes his future prospects of success in the world he has lived his whole life. I see him giving half answers that are carefully constructed to cover his own bottom and absent of describing criminality by the Orange menace. Trump should have subpoenaed at the start of the hearings...cannot understand how Clinton was forced to testify because of a misleading statement and yet Trump leads an insurrection to overthrow the Republic and he's untouchable. I guess we are counting on the testimony of female aides to save our Democracy.
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)a huge part of the problem. But it works for Republicans, because I think that's part of the reason that Centrists went along with them for so long. They would rather give up on some of their democratic goals, rather than to deal with a party that uses the harsh strategies that the Republicans are known for.
They're already threatening to impeach Biden if they take over the house in November!
mercuryblues
(15,361 posts)If you hang around criminals long enough, you eventually become a witness, co-conspirator or dead.
It seems Cipollone has made his choice.
Baitball Blogger
(48,741 posts)dlk
(12,514 posts)Where one hand washes the other and the attorneys are in the middle, pulling the strings. Cipollone, no doubt, knows where most, if not all of the bodies are buried. McGahn managed to get a pass, though and appears to have moved on unscathed. Cipollone, however, not so much. After Trump, his life will never be the same.
Septua
(2,645 posts)..it was time to end the hearsay and give the committee what they need to know. Trump wanted and had every intention to block the peaceful transfer of power and Cipollone knew it was wrong.
After all, Cipollone is NOT a political opportunist just trying to keep a job.