this is not going to win me any friends or favors but when

[speak easy]

Last edited Wed Jul 13, 2022, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)

on 15 August 2021, the Taliban walked (not marched) into Kabul, not a shot was fired by the well equipped and well trained Afghan Army charged with defending their country, their city, and the hopes and dreams of their women and girls. Not a shot. 20 years of US. support and training came to nothing when it came to the crunch. A fiasco of cowardice and indifference. President Biden made the right call and then some.

On 24 February, 2022, when Russia's armed forces marched into Ukraine, President Zelensky's militias contested every inch of territory. In the days, weeks, and months that have followed, each U.S. shipment of arms have been followed by spectacular defeats, set backs and slaughters of the Russian invaders The bravery of Ukrainians, from tractor drivers to special forces, is being written into legend.

Six months after the fall of Afghanistan, the last thing the Biden Administration wanted was to be drawn into another shooting war. But when President Zelensky and Ukraine argued their case for democratic sovereignty, a (capital D) Democratic Administration, burned by the cases of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan still went the extra mile to support light (over Putin's darkness)

So, who are our friends? A: Those who are prepared to live free or die (yes I know). Same as it ever was.

Afghans, like their President fleeing Kabul, showed cowardice - the Ukrainians, like their President, bravery. Horses for courses. The Biden Administration made the correct calls. Slava Ukraini.

[LoisB]

1. I agree except I don't know that Afghans are necessarily cowards. I think the majority of

Afghans want to live under Taliban rule while Ukrainians do not want to live under Russian rule.

[Hortensis]

12. Yes! The Afghans are fearsomely famous for anything BUT cowardice

and also for valuing their own culture and rejecting western, non-Muslim ways. Their hard-core religious conservatives embraced Afghanistan's own Taliban for itself, for others who didn't oppose it was a means of getting rid of us.

[LoisB]

28. I believe you are exactly right. Well said. Thank you.

[temporary311]

17. I also think a significant chunk of the

Afghan army didn't exist except on paper. Higher ups were making up troops and then collecting the money for their training, supply, etc and pocketing it.

[momta]

27. Kind of like the Russian higher-ups

[LoisB]

30. There is always a money angle.

[question everything]

2. Geopolitical considerations (cynical?)

If Putin gets away with taking territory, China is ready to do the same with Taiwan and other places.

[Hekate]

29. That's not cynical -- it's realistic. China's jets have been buzzing Taiwan for quite awhile now...

It’s provocation. They are testing us.

[Pepsidog]

41. Taiwan has been preparing for war with China for many years and has considerable

weapons to inflict a lot of damage to China. The fact that the West has united against Russia should make China’s think twice about an inevitable war with Taiwan. China’s internal problems regarding its losing battle with Covid and its reliance on foreign raw material and energy for manufacturing also make them reconsider war with Taiwan. While China’s navy is rapidity expanding, it’s the USA that controls the seas and allows the flow of energy and other goods. If America just leaves the international scene and stops being the world’s police force then undoubtedly China and many other countries may start military campaigns of aggression similar to what Russia has done.

[Srkdqltr]

3. Obviously the Afghans prefer the Taliban.

[speak easy]

6. while all the while saying otherwise

as long as U$D found a way into their bank accounts,

[Hortensis]

21. The Taliban are a far-right Afghani fundamentalist Muslim group that

accomplished a successful national resurgence and takeover. Most Afghans don't want the Taliban, many have died fighting and have suffered under it this and previous times. But at least the Taliban is Afghanistan's own people and Afghanistan's own devil, or savior. To most, the Christian Western occupiers weren't either.

[Srkdqltr]

4. The Ukrainians got rid of the Russians before and they obviously don't want them again.

[Samrob]

5. Thank you for that. And remember who left the Kurds on the battle field. nt

[BlueLucy]

7. Trump and Pompeo openly and publicly made the deal with the Taliban.

That sends a pretty clear message on where the Americans are, I think. Probably a morale killer.

[Cracklin Charlie]

8. I think our involvement here goes much deeper.

I think there’s a reason the autocrats went after Ukraine. I think Ukraine is helping us save our democracy. That’s why Trump and Putin spent so much effort attacking them. This all started long before February 2022. President Biden knows. We will owe them more than can ever be repaid.

Send them anything they need.

[speak easy]

9. "Ukraine is helping us save our democracy".

Yes. The hallmark of democracy is the peaceful transfer of power after a contested election. Ukraine demonstrated their democracy in 2019. The United States in 2021 ... not so much.

[Cracklin Charlie]

10. One of Trumps impeachments was over his actions in Ukraine.

Putin was made at Ukraine before Trump was elected. President Obama declared transnational organized crime our enemy in 2011. I think Ukraine has been helping us for quite some time. Biden knows.

[speak easy]

13. Whatever the future may bring,

President Biden's defense of Ukrainian democracy is something that they can't take away from us.

[Wounded Bear]

14. Yeah, this has been building for a while, around the world...

In the end, there was not enough support in Afghanistan for democracy and the rule of law. Freedom and democracy cannot be forced from the outside, it has to come from within. Plus, Afghanistan really started (well this iteration of it anyway) back in the 80's with Reagan and the Cold War, when we basically started bin Laden, al Qaeda, and the Taliban. Back then, we backed a lot of crazy assholes around the world in our zeal to "fight Communism." 2001 was just when we went active.

Ukraine ain't perfect, but we didn't install Zelenskyy. Their patriotism is ingrown and ancient. They definitely deserve our support. I only hope we can hold the Europeans in the coalition. So far, so good. It's turning into a war of attrition, which from just sheer size would favor Russia. But if we can hold out long enough, Putin will lose the support of the Russian people, hopefully.

Slava Ukraini!

[LakeArenal]

11. Apparently you don't know any Afghans.

They people are suffering mightily.
The old government ran off with the money. Just like trump would have done if he could.

The people of Afganistán had nothing to do with the change that happened and most do not want to live under Taliban rule.

Don’t confuse governments with the people who live there.

What happened to Afghanistan was a trump deal that Biden got stuck with.

[speak easy]

15. They did not care enough to fight

for the future of their women and girls. All hail the strongmen.

[tazkcmo]

18. And we all know

They aren't cowards. There's a reason they didn't fight.

[LakeArenal]

19. Wow. That's really totally wrong. But okay.

You have your right to say it.

But I have real people on line everyday that are scared and worry about the future of their children.

Decades of war and occupying groups. Hope it doesn’t happen here.

Edit; I find profiles interesting. Especially On very controversial statements.

[speak easy]

22. The Taliban walked into Kabul without a sot being fired.

That's how much women and girls meant to the Afghan army.

[LakeArenal]

23. Sure sure. They don't care about their country or people.

If that comforts you. Wrong but in US you are allowed to be wrong.

[tazkcmo]

16. Values.

Western style democracy does not reflect the values of a majority of Afghans. We should stop hammering square pegs into round holes.

[LakeArenal]

20. Yes....

[uponit7771]

43. ******* THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 *******

[DFW]

24. Afghanistan isn't divided into two easily identifiable opposing factions

There are many ethnic factions usually all against each other. The whole country is an artificial geographic entity with borders of convenience drawn by British colonial masters in the 19th century. The army was infiltrated with Taliban sympathizers, and, at any rate, they were poorly supplied, poorly paid, and thus poorly motivated. Their "what's the use?" attitude was unfortunately quite understandable. I'm betting that the number of poorly motivated Russian sympathizers inside the Ukrainian armed forces is comfortably under a tenth of a per cent.

[FakeNoose]

37. Yes!

Once we got OBL, what reason did we have to be there?

If the Afghan people prefer to live under Taliban rule, well that's their business. They didn't invite us in to fight, we just showed up because we wanted Bin Ladin.

[tiredtoo]

25. Afghans have never lost a war

They always go to the winning side as the war ends. They accepted the Taliban as the winning side.

[Irish_Dem]

26. Most of our military ventures are done to benefit the military industrial complex.

There is no other reason for these boondoggles to exist.

The Ukraine situation of course is very legitimate. But the US military complex is going to get rich.

[Tetrachloride]

31. Outsiders of the Third World tend to be top down

Politicians, military, celebrities.

And tend to deal with men.

Men in Muslim countries value control because they have so little control. Money, food, water, medical and decency from neighbors are in short supply.

Marriage is a powerful, imposing even oppressive topic when girls get over 17, or even 14 .

[GregariousGroundhog]

32. That's an astute observation you make

Something like $85 billion was spent arming the Afghan military, and that was only a fraction of what the U.S. military spent overall in the country.

Ukraine so far received $7.5 billion in military aid from the United States. That $7.5 billion has been put to use with much better effect than money spent in Afghanistan. The Ukranians have an axe to grind, and I bet they would love an $85 billion weapons package.

[Polybius]

33. Education could be one reason

I have a Marine friend who was in the Afghanistan war. He said many locals had no idea there was a war going on.

[former9thward]

34. Two Super powers met defeat in Afghanistan.

The Soviet Union and the U.S. The U.S. could not avoid defeat under four different presidents over 20 years. The Afghans are no cowards.

[KPN]

35. Big difference though. Afghani's were fighting Afghani's.

Boiling it down to cowardice vs bravery seems a bit simplistic. Trying to be nice here.

[Warpy]

36. What passed for a government there was hopelessly corrupt

Those well trained Afghan forces were sent out with no food or water and sometimes no ammo because some bureaucrat had sold it off or simply trousered the money allocated to the army to feather his own nest.

I was not surprised by how quickly that house of cards collapsed. The only thing that surprised me was how easily Ghani fled to Abu Dhabi with all his ill gotten cash. His retirement has been in a 5 star hotel. You'd think somebody would have stopped him.

[uponit7771]

46. +1,

[Martin Eden]

38. Regarding the Afghan army's lack of resistance

I read a well sourced article at the time that the Afghan military was very dependent on US personnel for equipment maintenance & repair and a host of other critical tech & logistics support. When our people pulled out, things fell apart rapidly.

This is not to say our Afghan allies are not blameless in the abject failure to slow the Taliban takeover, but I think they knew the takeover was inevitable with our departure. Very few are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe is a cause that is already lost.

This tragic failure was not set up by President Biden or the two who preceded him. It is overwhelmingly the fault of the Bush/Cheney administration who got us stuck in a hopeless quagmire then shifted their focus to their PNAC agenda in Iraq.

For the sake of argument let's accept the premise our military intervention in Afghanistan was justified as a national security measure to eliminate bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist base involved in the 9/11 attacks. As I see it there were two main options:

Go in strong, eliminate the al Qaeda leadership including bin Laden, then get out.

Go in strong, eliminate al Qaeda, then assemble a broad coalition of nations (including Muslim countries) with the resources and commitment necessary for the extremely difficult task of nation building in that tribal war torn land.

Bush/Cheney set up the misadventure for certain failure from the get-go. Before long, the only logical option was to get out before pouring more blood and treasure down that bottomless pit.

[uponit7771]

45. +1,

[Joinfortmill]

39. 👍

[TomSlick]

40. There is one important thing that could be done short of boots-on-the-ground.

The provision of HIMARS to Ukraine was dependent on the agreement to not fire on targets inside Russia. It makes no sense from a military perspective to prohibit Ukraine from targeting artillery located in Russia that are firing on targets, mostly civilians, in Ukraine.

The restrictions on Ukraine from firing on military targets inside Russia should be lifted.

[IronLionZion]

42. Trump sold us out to Russians

he allowed and encouraged cyberattacks on the US. The Trump admin showed cowardice when the Saudis butchered an American permanent resident and when Turkey killed a bunch of Kurdish people who had fought for the US in Iraq and Syria.

[uponit7771]

44. No ... come on people, stop. US goes into places the wrong way and expect the right results has

... stop in our minds.

The most corrupt assholes are chosen to lead the country by the US and then we wonder why they don't want what we're selling them.

Come on.. stop

[brer cat]

47. K&R

Good post, speak easy.

[JI7]

48. We should have never gone into Afghanistan

We should have tried to go after Bin Laden but it should have been targeted with special forces which is how we ended up doing it anyways.

I feel similar with most Muslim Nations.

[Caliman73]

49. Those are not analogous situations.

Afghanistan has a history of unstable government for centuries. It is a patchwork of tribal groups who have regularly fought for control of the land mass. Meanwhile, Ukraine has had some semblance of cultural identity since around or before Russia was around. When the Soviet Union was formed, Ukraine tried to maintain its autonomy as a nation until forced to relent by the Red Army.

Afghanistan meanwhile has been the graveyard of Empire BECAUSE it is impossible to keep together for any period of time.

While the US trained Afghan troops and equipped them, we never gave them the autonomy and skills to maintain their equipment and there wasn't a unified Afghan society to defend.

The Biden Administration did in fact, make the correct call, but not for the reasons you stated.

[speak easy]

50. "it is impossible to keep together for any period of time"

Well, we will see, won't we?

[Raine]

51. Totally agree with you. nt

[lees1975]

52. Trump sold out and undermined the government in Afghanistan by negotiating with his good friends

the Taliban. The Army wasn't going to support a government that had no authority.

Trump was too busy figuring out how to undermine legitimate elections to worry about a legitimately elected democratic government in a foreign country.