The Presbyterian Church voted to declare Israel an apartheid state. Jewish organizations are calling

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Omaha Steve (a host of the General Discussion forum).

the move antisemitic.

In a move Jewish organizations are condemning as antisemitic, the Presbyterian Church USA voted to declare that the actions of the Israeli government against the people of Palestine meets the legal definition of apartheid.

Commissioners of 225th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted 266 to 116 in their annual meeting to make public the church's stance that both affirms the right of Israel to provide security to its borders and criticizes human rights offenses perpetrated against Palestinians.

"In 2018, Israel passed a nation-state law, which declares the distinction between Jews and non-Jews fundamental and legitimate, and permits institutional discrimination in land management and development, housing, citizenship, language and culture. This decision among many other practices have confirmed that the policies and practices of Israel constitute apartheid," read a letter by Rev. Dr. J. Herbert Nelson, II, stated clerk of the general assembly of the Presbyterian Church.

The clerk's letter added the Presbyterian Church, which consists of over 1.7 million members, recognizes the legitimacy of the Israeli state but it opposes continuing occupation of Palestine, which it declared to be "illegitimate, illegal under international law, and an enduring threat to peace in the region."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-presbyterian-church-voted-to-declare-israel-an-apartheid-state-jewish-organizations-are-calling-the-move-antisemitic/ar-AAZDcnT

[Turbineguy]

1. And this is helpful in what way??

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Well, is there discrimination, arbitrary partition, and persecution or not?

A religious group is allowed to voice its opinion.

And it isn't anti-semitic. Nobody's calling to put Jews in camps and ovens -- or to deport all Jews to Israel.

[Beastly Boy]

6. Even if all of it was true, and it's not, it doesn't amount to apartheid.

If that was the case, dozens of countries would have been guilty of apartheid. But for some reason only Israel is being accused of it.
But that’s not antisemitic, is it?

[no_hypocrisy]

7. One could make a cogent argument that the United States is

also apartheid, using the same logic. There are lots of places where non-whites can't move into. They're afraid to even go shopping in those towns, let alone drive through them, for fear of arrest -- or worse.

[Beastly Boy]

12. It would be much more logical to accuse the US of apartheid

Since apartheid by definition has to do with racism. And there are posts in this thread that correctly point out that Israelis and Palestinians are of the same ethnicity, let alone race. Likewise, there are some countries in the Middle East that have one Semitic group discriminating against another Semitic group and no one finds it anything less than ridiculous to accuse them of apartheid, Israel being a conspicuous exception

[no_hypocrisy]

14. Not to belabour the point, but

when you have the Israeli government evicting longstanding Arab residents from East Jerusalem with the goal of giving the same homes to Israeli Jews, I conclude that's apartheid.

[Beastly Boy]

15. Then your conclusion would be contrary to the definition of apartheid

Plain and simple.

[DavidDvorkin]

21. Exactly

Apartheid was something specific, a collection of laws and rules, not a general attitude of discrimination.

[Mosby]

20. The Jordanians stole that land in E. J'lem from the Jewish owners.

And after they got it back they let the squatters stay there for a time. Then when they wouldn't pay rent even a symbolic about of rent (like 20 bucks a month) they were evicted.

To summarize:

The 1947-48 war was an attempt by Arab states to destroy the nacent state of Israel and kill everyone, it failed. That was obviously illegal under international law. It resulted in Jordan occupying the WB (Illegally) and Egypt occupying Gaza (illegally).

The Jordanians, who were given Jordan by the British (Illegally) and then tried to annex the West Bank (illegally) in 1954 or so after they illegally took control of the area,they moved people into east J'lem (illegally) and occupied property that was owned by Jews since the 1800s.

After Israel liberated the west Bank from the illegal Jordanian occupation in 1967, they let the squatters live there rent free because of this very situation.


https://jewishcurrents.org/a-judicial-reprieve-for-palestinians-in-sheikh-jarrah

[DavidDvorkin]

22. That part always gets ignored.

[Geechie]

3. That word...

WHY T.F. is it "anti-semitic" to call Israel on its policy? I’ve been asking this question for decades and have yet to get any kind of coherent answer.

Also I wish people would look up the word Semitic before throwing it around.

(From Oxford) “relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.”

If anything the Presbys are being PRO semitic by supporting the cause of Palestinians.

[paleotn]

5. Bingo.

[former9thward]

11. Have the Arab countries been called on their policy?

Why just Israel?

[DavidDvorkin]

24. Not that nonsense again

"Antisemitic" has a specific meaning and has had that meaning for decades. It refers specifically to anti-Jewish opinions and actions.

[paleotn]

4. Criticizing one Semitic people's institutional discrimination against another Semitic people

is somehow anti-semitic? I'm not sure how that works. Show me the logic.

[former9thward]

8. Have they condemned the Arab states for being apartheid?

Only Israel? That is how the logic works.

[Beastly Boy]

9. By the same token, it is not apartheid either.

But that didn’t stop the Presbyterian church from using the term

[paleotn]

13. In my mind, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

it's probably a duck. Just not identical to the old, South African version. But institutional discrimination is institutional discrimination. I get the back story of how we got here, but I'd rather Israel use the carrot a bit more than the stick. It's been all stick for over a decade now. Simply beating the shit out of them isn't going to change the dynamic and move both people's forward.

[Beastly Boy]

17. There are many countries that quack like ducks

Far more convincingly than Israel. None of them, not one, are being accused of apartheid. Except Israel.
Now, what would you call it when one group of people is singled out of many other groups of people for criticism of identical conduct? That’s right. Discrimination.

[Mosby]

18. Because it's Jew hate, languages have nothing to do with it.

The term antisemitism was coined by a Nazi Jew hater who thought the term made it more acceptable. Apparently he was on to something.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

10. For those who are unaware, there are many Presbyterian denominations in the USA,

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), who passed this action, would be considered the most theologically and socially "progressive" of the bunch.

Said w/o comment.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

16. Criticism is not bigotry and it is definitely an apartheid state.

[Beastly Boy]

19. What is your definition of apartheid?

Whatever it is, I can probably name quite a few countries besides Israel that fit this definition.
Would you mind accusing them of apartheid as well? Just to make sure we are talking about criticism and not bigotry.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. .

What is your definition of apartheid?

Oppressive racism institutionalized by the state.

Whatever it is, I can probably name quite a few countries besides Israel that fit this definition.

I'm sure you could, such actions are not rare. Knock yourself out.

Would you mind accusing them of apartheid as well?

Why would I mind?

[Mosby]

23. The Saudis practice apartheid every day.

Here is an example from THIS WEEK. Only Muslims are eligible to fly from the area to KSA for the Hajj.

That's the very definition of apartheid.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-saudi-arabia-may-ok-overflight-from-israel-allow-direct-travel-for-hajj/

Israel on the other hand treats all citizens the same, there is no apartheid there.

[Omaha Steve]

26. After a review by forum hosts....LOCKING

Threads about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted in the Israel/Palestine Group.

Open discussion of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia.