How do we address a pharmacist who's too religious to sell birth control?

[NickB79]

Because my gut instinct is to say "Screw them, they shouldn't be a pharmacist in the first place then."

But then I recall stories like this from years ago, since I live in Minnesota, of Somali immigrants refusing to sell pork, alcohol, or taxi drivers transporting people with alcohol. And then, I empathize with the Muslims and their faith.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/faith/2007/03/16/some-muslim-grocery-cashiers-refuse/23500493007/

And thinking about this, it makes me feel hypocritical. I tried to rationalize it by saying birth control is far more important than buying a bottle of booze, but it still seems.... insufficient.

[TxGuitar]

1. If a person knowingly goes into a profession

That requires them to sell/purvey goods that are against their religion they should find a different career. It's that simple.

[lindysalsagal]

12. +1000

No one forced these idiots to take the job.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

50. So Muslims should not work at a grocery store. Got it.

[TxGuitar]

53. If their beliefs forbid them then yes

They should work at one of those halal grocery stores. Otherwise they can either suck it up and work at a grocery store or find other employment. This is our country not their church.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

59. +1

[Zeitghost]

60. It might be our country

But it's not our grocery store. We don't get to make the rules on who they employ.

[Ms. Toad]

65. You are aware that the Civil Rights act

prohibits discrimination based on religion, or lack thereof.

Unless it would be an undue hardship on the employer's operation of its business, an employer must reasonably accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices. This applies not only to schedule changes or leave for religious observances, but also to such things as dress or grooming practices that an employee has for religious reasons.

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

The civil rights act is generally something which progressives support.

And how about those under 21s. Should they be prohibited from working at grocery stores or convenience stores because they are not allowed (by law) to ring up alcohol? From a practical standpoint, how different is it to accommodate an under 21 who can't ring up certain things than to accommodate a religious person who can't ring up certain things?

Also from a practical standpoint - when someone shows up at Walgreens (or whatever other pharmacy), they will be able to tell from the person's name what the prescription is. They should, unobtrusively, find a fellow employee who can distribute the medication who simply takes over the task. They should never be scheduled alone, unless they are willing to fill all prescriptions (and if it is unduly burdensome for the pharmacy to never schedule the clerk/pharmacist alone, they they are not required to accommodate the belief).

But there are ways to accommodate religious beliefs without interfering with or being offensive to those served.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. If your ethics say you can't sell or transport something that's legal, you shouldn't take a job that

involves doing that very thing.

[NickB79]

4. I think that's why it's difficult for me

I've known a few Somali refugees, and their options for work were very limited when they arrived. Working as a cashier at Walmart, or gutting chickens in a meat packing plant. So I can't fault them for not wanting to be elbows-deep in chicken guts all day.

But working in retail in Minnesota, you have to sell pork and booze.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. There was a lot of varying interpretation from Muslim scholars about what the drivers could and

couldn't do; saying they couldn't transport alcohol was one of the strictest interpretations, and the drivers went with that for whatever reason. Don't get me wrong -- I am not a fan of employers or bosses, but in both an ethical and legal sense, organizing to deny a service because of personal preferences in this model of scarcity capitalism is a gross road to go down.

[RobinA]

68. This

I have no sympathy for somebody in this situation. Maybe if the problem activity was added to the job, but if you can't sell/do what the job requires, get a different job. You don't get to foist your ethics on the unsuspecting public or your employer when it comes to tasks that are expected parts of the job.

[Scrivener7]

3. No weasel behind a counter gets to tell me I have to bear a child when I don't want to.

While I don't think people should go into a field where they are expected in the normal course of the day to do things that are against their religion, the stakes for birth control are quite a bit higher than the examples you cite.

We address it by calling the parent company and telling them we are not going to use their stores anymore. For ANYTHING. Then we tell all our friends on DU and any other social media forum we are on and we tell them to do the same.

And then we ALL follow through on that.

[paleotn]

5. Healthcare is not the same as ....

picking up some BBQ or a six pack. The former could be life threatening. The later are personal choices.

Might be easy for me, I guess, since I have rather short patience for those with irrational beliefs. Have irrational beliefs? Hey, whatever. Don't sell pork chops? No bother, I'll go the grocery down the street. But when those irrational beliefs start to impact someone else's well being, ummm no. I immediately call bullshit.

[Croney]

6. I'm an atheist, but if I worked in a bookstore that sold Bibles,

I'd sell a Bible. However, I once refused to loan a relative money to help buy a convenience store because it sold cigarettes.

The refusal to sell birth control will likely lead to more unwanted teen pregnancies that can't be ended legally in so many states now.

[Zeitghost]

30. And if you owned a bookstore

Should you be required to carry Bibles?

[Croney]

48. If I owned a bookstore there would be no Bibles in it.

I doubt anyone would notice, lol.

[Zeitghost]

61. As would be your right

And I'd probably shop there. But I don't think you should be forced to sell bibles just like I don't think any business should be forced to carry or sell any specific item.

What individual employees want to do on the job is between them and their employer.

[Vinca]

7. Birth control should be OTC - no prescription necessary.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

8. I sorta famously don't give a shit about what 2,000 y.o. texts have to say, but ...

At least the bans against pork and alcohol are specifically stated in Koran.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure there's nowhere it says you can't sell (or use yourself, even) contraception in the Buy-Bull.

So that's a difference between the two cases.

I suppose I'd accept it if the pharmacist owns the business and simply refuses to stock it, period. Then people can just go elsewhere in most cases.

[SYFROYH]

9. I think interfering with prescribed items is safe line to draw

But thats just my opinion and I dont know if its constitutionally backed upZ

[Raven123]

10. Is not the pharmacist's religious belief in conflict with the customer's?

What to do, what to do?

Create a work around. Take contraception out of the local pharmacist’s control. I think the only answer is to push for a law that allows/mandates alternatives, such as mail order, or contraceptive pharmacies. Require multiple months supply to be authorized.

Just can’t think of another way around it.


Personally, I don’t believe pharmacists should be allowed to use their personal religious view to deny a legally prescribed medication, but that’s my opinion. It’s a slippery slope. They can claim religious rights for anything.

[Sympthsical]

25. There already is a work around

If someone refuses to fill a prescription for whatever reason, there's a multiple paths to have that prescription filled by another pharmacist who doesn't object.

Social media don't know how pharmacies work. The more I read this stuff, the more annoyed I get.

People really seem to think Walgreens and CVS won't fill legal prescriptions.

What would we ever do without Twitter.

[Novara]

11. If your religion and job conflict, it's time to give up one of them.

If you can't do both, then change one of them. It's that simple.

If you can't separate the two, then be prepared for the fallout - legal and otherwise.

I am sick to death of coddling bigots.

You can buy pork somewhere else. You can get a different taxi in most places. In some small towns there is only one pharmacy. Even in small towns, the only grocery isn't going to refuse to sell pork. The only taxi company isn't likely to tolerate a driver who refuses to pick up certain clients. It's not OK for a pharmacist - dispensing healthcare - to refuse. Not all women taking birth control take it for sex. Some take it for other health reasons. This is healthcare, not food or a ride.

But until we get a SCOTUS we can trust to do the right thing, we're stuck with religious bigots.

[Demsrule86]

29. And I for one believe if I want to have sex for fun...it is my right as an Amerian, and the

f'ing right wing can take their nose out of my vagina.

[Novara]

33. Damn right

[Solly Mack]

13. You won't find a ham and cheese at a kosher deli either - but it's a kosher deli. So, duh.

Much like it isn't surprising to find a Muslim owned food store or restaurant that only sells halal items.

However, Walgreens isn't an advertised/established as such "Christian" and/or "anti-woman" company. Neither is CVS.

There is a difference between a business catering to kosher/halal laws and a retail business that is a secular operation.

[Zeitghost]

31. There is deffinitly a difference

But is it a legal one? That is to say, does the way you advertise yourself determine what you must sell?

[Solly Mack]

32. As legal as catholic hospitals.

Last edited Sun Jul 24, 2022, 04:54 PM - Edit history (1)

But on a less sarcastic note, yeah - kind of like a Christian bookstore is legal.

Stores that cater to religious needs aren't inherently bad. More of a niche market than anything.

The bad comes in when they try and impose their select market on others. You must shop here, kind of thing. Or we deserve special privileges, etc.

The problem with Catholic Hospitals is that they are often the only hospital in town or the nearest, which can and does put the lives of people with an uterus in jeopardy.

A kosher or halal restaurant/grocery store doesn't harm me.

Now, it would suck if that was the only store close by and I really wanted a pepperoni pizza and was short on time, transportation or funds.

Food deserts are another problem, though.

[Hiawatha Pete]

35. +1

[lindysalsagal]

14. If you refuse to do your job, don't be surprised when they fire you.

Pretty simple.

[Ms. Toad]

64. The Civil Rights Act says otherwise -

and the Civil Rights Act is something progressives generally support.

There are limits - but it does require accommodation of religious beliefs as long as doing so is not unreasonably burdensome for the employee.

[Eyeball_Kid]

15. Somali immigrants didn't take professional ethics oaths. Pharmacists do.

They have a PROFESSIONAL obligation to serve their patients. They can pray at church, they can proselytize on the street corner. But when they are working at pharmacy, they serve the patients on orders from the patients' doctors. If they can't do that, then they violate their ethics code and they should be held to account for their blending of their personal with their professional lives.

[allegorical oracle]

16. Most effective action is to remove our almighty dollars from those businesses. Even if it requires

driving a bit farther. It takes a while to be effective, but word-of-mouth/social media is powerful. Profit motive is alive and well among conservatives.

[Sympthsical]

18. Think about "end of life" prescriptions

A lot of pharmacists won't do them. Health systems have rather far-reaching exemptions for that sort of thing. They simply don't want to be a part of ending a life. Whether it's religion or just conscience.

There are lots of little rules, exemptions, and things pharmacists can do that people never paid too much attention to.

It varies state to state, and sometimes the state pharmacy boards go further than statute. It really varies.

However, the one universal you'll see (or should see) is that if a pharmacist wants to exercise a conscience clause, there has to be another way for the patient to obtain the legal prescription. Usually that just means another pharmacist working at that location. People who plan to exercise the conscience clause have to make their employers aware of it in advance so that they can meet their obligations to the patient. Health care cannot be endangered or compromised, otherwise people will get into some shit.

This sort of thing has always gone on, but people are paying more attention now because of Dobbs. Assholery will be highlighted - and there are any number of little would-be Napoleans getting their asshole on right now.

[unblock]

19. The torah tells *me* not to eat pork. It doesn't tell me non-jews can't eat pork

Religion is a guide for how to live your own life.

No legitimate religious belief is a guide to how to impose those constraints on people who don't share that religious belief.

There is nothing in the Torah that says I can't sell pork to a Christian.

There is nothing in the Bible that says you can't sell birth control to people who think birth control is fine.


Now, as a practical matter, if someone isn't comfortable doing their job, I have no issue with them calling an associate to take over that particular transaction. But if no associate is available, then yeah I have a problem with that.

Can I sign up to be the sole worker at a gas station, then shut down all the pumps because of a strongly held belief that we shouldn't pollute any more?

[Baltimike]

20. take your business elsewhere. nt

[CrispyQ]

21. They shouldn't take the job. Same with the Muslim taxi drivers.

If you can't deal with the public without bringing your prejudices to the job, then get a different job. It's that simple.

We need to start writing to corporations that let their pharmacists get away with this crap. Go to their FB pages & Google & Yelp & Nextdoor, places like that, & out these self-righteous assholes. Call the local store too, & voice complaints to management.

[Sympthsical]

28. It's not the companies

It's state legislatures and pharmacy boards that lay out the rules of conscience clauses, and then companies make policies around them.

CVS and Walgreens don't just up and decide these things because they're bored.

So much misinformation on this issue.

[KentuckyWoman]

22. I took my business elsewhere.

A pharmacy is a business. If I cannot get the product I went there for I will take my business elsewhere.
If I cannot get the product I need anywhere near where I live I might travel to a different area to get it. I'd also work to get what is needed locally. Depending on my circumstances I will move to wherever those things are.

Example.
My husband had cancer and we lived on generational family farm in eastern Kentucky. Out in the sticks. Eventually the drives into Lexington for his appointments and treatments got to be too much. We deeded the farm to family. We created an ESOP and handed my business over to my employees and moved to Lexington. Fast forward to now and the 2 main towns in the general area have fairly decent medical centers supported by UK, state and federal dollars and private benefactors.

Small towns who let the Talibornagains run off young families will suffer. In the case of women's health. If there's one pharmacist in town and they refuse, and no one wants to come in for competition, then people will have to make decisions on where they live or else figure out how to "put in a supply" every time they go to the big city.

[Greybnk48]

23. Will the pharmacist sell condoms? I'll bet the answer is yes.

A Pharmacist cannot pick and choose which medicines that S/He approves of based on their religious interpretations.

Go get a job with a religious organization that only dispenses medicine that matches their particular interpretation of their particular religious manual, and allow others to exercise their religious and civic freedom.

[Greybnk48]

24. Will the pharmacist sell condoms? I'll bet the answer is yes.

A Pharmacist cannot pick and choose which medicines that S/He approves of based on their religious interpretations.

Go get a job with a religious organization that only dispenses medicine that matches their particular interpretation of their particular religious manual, and allow others to exercise their religious and civic freedom.

[Demsrule86]

26. Fire his/her ass...he needs retraining.

[Nictuku]

27. Every Employee should sign an agreement that they are willing to sell every item in a store

Is that not the purpose of stores? To sell items? Is it not against the self-interest of the company to have their employees unwilling to sell whatever the store has to sell? That is Capitalism, is it not?

[ecstatic]

34. I think people like that should start their own business and then refuse to sell

requested items at their own business. See how that works out for them.

[Ocelot II]

36. The incident in WI where a Walgreens employee refused to sell condoms

didn't involve a pharmacist - he was just a checkout guy. There have been other situations, though, where pharmacists have refused to fill prescriptions for birth control - and now in some states they can't fill prescriptions for the morning-after pill. But if you are a pharmacist your job is to fill prescriptions for whatever drug a doctor has prescribed; you don't get to decide for your religious reasons that the person for whom the drug was prescribed shouldn't have it. If you work for a drugstore that sells contraceptives you have to fill the prescription because it's your job. A Muslim shouldn't work at a liquor store or a hot dog stand (and I don't think they ever do). If they are working at a grocery store that sells these things among many others, the store works around the situation by having another employee handle the transaction, so customers are rarely inconvenienced. However, I wonder how a person whose religion opposes the sale of certain items can justify taking a paycheck from that business when the money was derived, even in a small part, from the sale of those prohibited items.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

42. That's what I don't understand...

Is why didn't the customer go to another cashier. There would be at least one other, or at least one manager. There should have been someone in the store to accommodate - I believe that's what the company rules is.
Did the customer just slam them down and leave, or did they ask for another cashier?
As long as the company provides someone who will provide service to me, I don't care what the other employee does.

[Sympthsical]

43. The manager checked the customer out

Which is proper procedure when someone invokes a conscience clause.

The customer's complaint is that she was embarrassed, because there was a building line of people behind her watching all this.

[Ocelot II]

51. And the cashier was a self-righteous jerk about it, making an issue

about his "faith" and refusing to even touch the package.

[Ocelot II]

49. Another cashier was called over,

but the first one made a big deal about how his religion wouldn't allow him to sell condoms or even touch them. Here's the whole story. https://www.startribune.com/the-battle-for-reproductive-rights-moves-to-the-front-register/600188979/

[rurallib]

37. If that had happened to me I would have demanded to see the store manager

If the store manager backed the pharmacist I would have demanded he call his superior. If that got me nothing I would be calling the home office later that day.

Then I would call some local or national news media.

They don't want to do their job, people should know.

[Straw Man]

38. I have very little sympathy.

What's next? Christian Science pharmacists who refuse to sell any medication?

[madinmaryland]

56. What about Amish Electricians who refuse to wire buildings.

[Tetrachloride]

39. I see Muslim shops and pharmacies here (overseas) every day.

Cigarettes and condoms are extant in shops

[FoxNewsSucks]

41. Middle-easterners own or lease a lot of gas stations

and small stores here, and they ALL peddle as many cigarettes, tobacco, vape stuff, those little glass crack pipes, and alcohol as they can.

[FoxNewsSucks]

40. I'm sick of their sanctimonious attitude.

Decades ago, I worked with a Jehovah's Witness. At inventory time in the store, she would not take inventory of the cigarettes or tobacco because that was "druggery". Back then, grocery stores often had Playboy and all the other smut magazines. She also refused to take inventory of them because they were "obscene".

I told her I could understand the smut mags, since there was no way to find the price without looking all over the covers. But for cigs and tobacco, she's not seeing anything obscene, she's not using them or promoting their use, taking inventory is just determining the monetary value for accounting purposes, so how could that be "against her religion". She was gonna ask, but I didn't see her often and ended up moving out of state before getting my answer.

I'd say the same to any of these asshole refusing to sell legal products. They're free to follow whatever stupid thing their "belief" tells them to, but they're not free to make everyone else conform to their church.

[Sympthsical]

44. There's a pharmacy tech who won't touch birth control

Works in one of my partner's pharmacies. They accommodate it. Someone else sorts it when it comes up.

And this is California.

Conscience clauses have always been a thing.

[Hekate]

58. Conscience clauses became a thing in the Bush/Cheney administration as Dubya & GOP catered...

… increasingly to the Evangelical right wing.

I don’t think it was heard of before then, except maybe as a one on one accommodation between employees.

[Sympthsical]

62. They came in after Roe

And they weren't controversial. State legislatures and Congress passed them overwhelmingly, including pro-choice people.

I think the reason people think it's a more contemporary thing during Bush is because Plan B became a thing. Before that, you were mainly dealing with Catholic hospitals and abortion. Plan B got tons of press because it was the "abortion drug". So pharmacists were suddenly in the news a lot more, and I think states started modifying everything (I think).

Conscience clauses don't only cover religious belief - you don't have to cite religion. A lot of personal beliefs are accommodated under them. For example, I think end of life drugs in states with assisted suicide have far, far more pharmacists opting out. I'd have to ask my partner, because I was only half-listening to him having a meeting about this one day, but I think they have a list of pharmacists who will do it, because it's a much shorter list than those who won't. Even if they're not particularly religious, they don't want that responsibility.

What's irking me about "Boycott Walgreens and CVS!" is that it's rooted in ignorance of the system. These companies made policies to navigate pharmacy boards and state legislatures. They're the ones that made a lot of these rules - not the companies. Once Dobbs came, I started asking my partner all kinds of questions about it and doing research. There are some really interesting cases out there. There have even been times where the pharmacy board and the state government have fought each other over it.

Walgreens and CVS are always going to tack towards, "Which policy makes it so we don't get sued?"

[Hekate]

63. That makes sense

[NotASurfer]

45. So I could get a job at the local Gunz-n-Such and refuse to ring up the merch?

As long as my reason is "because Jesus" of course. Same logic

[SickOfTheOnePct]

46. My problem is less

with an individual pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription than it is with how they're doing it.

Get a prescription called, faxed, or electronically submitted? Let the person on duty who doesn't have an issue with filling it fill it. As a patient, I couldn't care less which pharmacist on duty fills it so long as it's filled.

Have a patient walk in and hand over a prescription? Take it, say thank you, tell them how long it will take, and then hand it over to the pharmacist on duty who has no problem filling it. Again, I couldn't care less which pharmacist on duty fills it so long as it's filled.

But the sanctimonious "I'm not filling this so that you can murder your baby" or "I don't believe in contraception, so I won't fill this" bullshit is simply a bullying tactic that shouldn't be permitted in any way, shape, or form.

If there is only one person on duty who can fill the prescription, then all bets are off and it should be filled without comment, but I've never been in a pharmacy where there is only one person working. That may be common and I'm just not aware of it

[Takket]

47. the company should deal with them by firing them

this entire thing is bizarre. How the heck are we even talking about this?

Could a car salesperson that is religiously opposed to selling cars hold a job at a dealership?

Could an accountant that is religiously opposed to taxes hold a job at an accounting firm?

Could a stylists that is religiously opposed to cutting hair hold a job at a salon?

FIRE THEIR STUPID ASS!!!!!!!!!!!

[harumph]

52. I would address him as Mr. Fuckwit

[TxGuitar]

54. Your personal beliefs should be left at the door

When you are at work. You are there to do a job, not inflict your religious beliefs on customers, clients, etc.

[Silent3]

55. That's not a problem for me...

...because I'm equally intolerant of, say, as in your example, of "Somali immigrants refusing to sell pork, alcohol, or taxi drivers transporting people with alcohol."

In either case, if it's your own small business, then fine. Go ahead and lose whatever customers you're going to lose by imposing your beliefs on others.

But if you're an employee for someone else and won't do all of the job you were hired for, or if your business receives government contracts or even the society-provided benefits of incorporation, screw you if you pull that shit on other people.

[frogmarch]

57. I'll go with

your gut instinct: Screw them, they shouldn't be a pharmacist in the first place then.

[pinkstarburst]

66. That's the gig

You decided to become a pharmacist? Or a doctor? Or an EMT? Or a firefighter?

Doctors don't get to refuse patients on spec. They don't get to refuse to treat patients who have been drinking (even if they are Muslim.)

Firefighters don't get to refuse to rescue victims because the victim was drinking and that conflicts with their personal beliefs (even if the firefighter is Muslim.)

As a teacher, I could not refuse students in my classroom. I taught the students assigned on my classroom roster. That's the gig.

You leave your personal beliefs at home during your work shift and follow your job description. I have little sympathy for pharmacists who say they will not fill birth control prescriptions because they don't agree with them on religious grounds. For that matter I also have little sympathy with a Muslim worker who chooses to take a job at a grocery store where they sell pork then says they will not ring up any customer with pork in their cart. That's the gig.

[Blaukraut]

67. The pharmacist in question should be fired

If they want to practice their profession encumbered by their personal beliefs, they should find employment with a religious pharmacy that would accommodate them.