The FBI found evidence at Mar-a-Lago that Team Trump can't ignore

[LetMyPeopleVote]

Last edited Mon Aug 15, 2022, 10:37 AM - Edit history (1)

The classified and other documents found by the FBI cannot be ignored

Link to tweet

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/fbi-warrant-confirmed-trump-serious-trouble-n1297897?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma

Everything we’ve seen since Monday suggests that the usual attempts from Trumpworld to poison the well ahead of bad news haven't been working. There has been nothing that could counter the simple fact confirmed on Friday: Donald Trump is under federal criminal investigation.

Among the dodges Trump offered up Friday is that the material recovered “was all declassified.” It’s the same argument that former Trump appointee/stooge Kash Patel used in May. He told Breitbart that classified documents then-recently recovered from Mar-a-Lago had actually already been declassified. Trump “declassified whole sets of materials” before leaving the White House,” Patel claimed, but, he said, White House counsel Pat Cipollone “failed to generate the paperwork to change the classification markings, but that doesn’t mean the information wasn’t declassified.” (Experts think that it may mean exactly that — and as NBC News reported on Friday, “the three laws cited in the search warrant do not specify that the mishandled documents had to have been classified.”).....

Other attempts to run defense have also fallen flat. Earlier on Friday, Rep. Mike Turner, R-Ohio, the ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee, tried to downplay the significance of whatever materials might have been found at Mar-a-Lago. “I can tell you that there are a number of things that are classified that fall under the umbrella of nuclear weapons but that are not necessarily things that are truly classified,” Turner said at a news conference.......

It’s obvious by now that the original game plan from Team Trump — call the DOJ corrupt and demand they reveal the warrant — has backfired. Plans B (claim all the documents in question were declassified) and C (hope that nothing related to the country’s nuclear weapons program was actually recovered) aren’t faring much better. The lack of ambiguity here has him and his cronies on the backfoot. For once, Trump is caught in a binary, one that asks whether classified materials were or were not recovered from his home.

It’s the exact kind of black-and-white court case that Trump managed to avoid for his entire time in public life. I don’t doubt that he’ll come up with a Plan D, E, and F in the coming days and weeks as we wait to see if charges result from Monday’s search. But there’s nothing he or his team can say or do to change the fact that Trump’s future could shift dramatically based on what the DOJ chooses to do about the 11 boxes of classified materials its agents brought home from Florida.

There was no valid reason for these documents to be held in a storage room at Mar-a-Logo. TFG is attempting to distract from this fact and these efforts are not working.

[malaise]

1. See the cartoon in my signature line

From day one Slobby was terrified that they had him on tape. He wanted to know why it was recorded - Lock then the fuck up!

[Higherarky]

2. Lock him up!

[hibbing]

3. ahh, the ol' "classified" and "truly classified" yeah, okay n/t

[Ms. Toad]

43. It actually is a helpful difference, for prosecution of Trump.

Even though they are often referred to as "classified" or "inherently classified", Information about nuclear things isn't part of the actual classification system. The president has the inherent power to declassify information which is actually classified.

Nuclear informaiton is controlled under a different program - it is restricted information under the Atomic Energy Acts. The president, alone, cannot ease restrictions on this information - he is merely a tie-breaker.

For those involving military weapons, Congress mandated that the decision be made jointly by senior officials at the Energy and Defense Departments; if the two departments disagree about whether or not to do so, the law says the president makes the final determination. So at a minimum, those officials must be involved in any decision to downgrade nuclear weapons information into so-called formerly restricted data.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html

[Hermit-The-Prog]

46. Regardless of classification, having the documents there and denying it makes him guilty.

Warrant:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.617854/gov.uscourts.flsd.617854.17.0_7.pdf

Cited codes:
18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519

[Ms. Toad]

50. I wasn't addressing whether he was guilty.

I was providing factual information about a comment which was being dismissed as yet another one of Trump's lies, when there is an actual difference between classified information and information governed by the Energy and Defense departments.

[LiberalFighter]

48. Those that would be involved in that decision at the time should testify.

[Chainfire]

4. The simple truth about the whole incident come from the personal knowledge

That, when I was in the Navy, with a security clearance, had I taken secret documents, of any classifications home with me, for any reason, and it was discovered, the FBI would have literally "raided" my home, taken me, under gunpoint, to a location where I would have been jailed, interrogated, and I would have remained in custody until a court martial, after which I would have been sent to Portsmouth Naval Prison to rot away while making small rocks out of big rocks. This was made perfectly clear to me, I believed it then and I believe it today. If Trump is not charged, then it would be unjust to charge an E3 for the same crime.

Justice can not be be based on one's political or economic status. Trump needs to be charged and he needs to be charged today. Charge him with one felony, lock him up and continue to develop the case as the evidence leads. He is too dangerous t national security to remain free.

There is an anecdote about how the Navy felt about property, that I will share with you:

A friend of mine, serving on the bridge of our ship, while under way, was handed an empty coffee cup, from the Captain. The captain told the sailor, "Here, do something with this." My friend stepped out to the wing of the bridge and tossed the cup over the side. When he returned, the captain gave him a puzzled look and asked, "What did you do with the cup." My friend admitted to what he had done. The sailor was arrested, charged with disobeying a direct order and destroying government property. He spent time in the brig, and didn't see liberty for at least six months over a twenty five cent coffee cup. (1970) Had he taken a top secret document, he would still be in Portsmouth today.

[Frustratedlady]

6. The fact that he was POTUS makes that even worse.

His punishment should be more stringent than an E3 or you or me. They let him go with a slap on the hand and every kid that gets in hot water will think he has a slap on the hand coming, too.

I imagine that is how Trump was raised. The parents were too busy building an empire and socializing, they didn't have time for discipline.

[Aviation Pro]

8. Didn't moms smoke and drink?

During Bloated Tick's gestation?

[Frustratedlady]

9. I don't know, but living with that ugly husband of hers would give her good reason to do so.

He gestated, eh? Who'da thunk?

[Escurumbele]

11. It would create precedence, and that would be used by lawyers everywhere each time a GOP member

decides to sell USA top secret information. That is how the law works, precedence is very important in court cases, allowing trump to go unpunished would create a terrible precedence, and would place future criminals at ease to commit crimes against the country, treason would become a minor offense.

What trump and his minions have committed is TREASON, make no mistake about it.

[brush]

15. Is the punishment for discarding the cup incident true?

Doesn't ring true to me as the officer told the sailor to do something with it, not what to do.

The sailor threw it overboard, a littering offense for sure, but certainly nothing that should involved prison time.

[Chainfire]

18. It is true, it did happen, and the sailor did whine about your point about the "order."

It did not involve prison time, but brig time aboard ship and loss of liberty. When a captain of a ship, especially when underway, goes after an E3, the outcome is predetermined. The sailor was given non-judicial punishment under the UCMJ; in this case, in the Navy it is referred to as a Captain's Mast.

The closest thing to Non-judicial punishment in civilian life is a misdemeanor. Captain's Mast, (Non-judicial punishment) can bring about the following penalties:

Reduction to the lowest enlisted grade (E-4 and below). For E-5 and above, the commander may reduce the service member to the next lower pay grade if the commander occupies a position that could promote the service member to the grade from which they are being reduced. For example, the commander has to be able to promote a service member to E-8 if he wants to reduce an E-8 to E-7.
Correctional custody: Correctional custody may include extra duties, fatigue duties, or hard labor. It may also include confinement in a confinement facility (of not more than 30 consecutive days). This punishment may not be used in combination with restriction or extra duties.

Forfeiture of ½ months pay per month for not more than 2 months.
Extra duty for not more than 45 days.
Restriction to a specified area for not more than 60 consecutive days. The combination of restriction and extra duties may not be more than what is allowable for extra duties.

Confinement on bread and water or diminished rations for not more than 3 consecutive days if service member is attached to or embarked on a vessel. This punishment may not be used in combination with correctional custody, extra duties or restriction.

[brush]

21. So it's up to the captain to decide whether to...

punish the sailor for his offense or ignore it, or decide on an appropriate punishment for such a minor offense. That captain who gave a vague, undefined order, IMO, proved to be a jerk.

[Chainfire]

24. I would be willing to bet that you never lived under the UCMJ.

Captains of ships can be "jerks," "assholes" or "petty tyrants," and, in fact, it is not all that unusual.

[brush]

28. Thanks for the inside info on what can go on on Navy ships.

[treestar]

54. Still, it should be just

and that story tells of a great injustice.

[LiberalFighter]

49. How often do those punishments occur?

How often are they for legitimate purposes?

How often are they less than honorably discharged?

[Chainfire]

55. Captain's masts or I believe the Army calls it "Office Hours" are not infrequent.

Such offenses as drunkenness, mouthing off to an officer, overstaying leave or liberty, fighting, etc. are not unheard of in the military. In the Navy, most of the problems happen in port. It is hard to get in too much trouble when at sea, because in is not uncommon to have a 12-16 hour work day. It leaves time to do the three Ss (shower, shave, ****) and not much more but sleep.

For instance, if you are standing the 4-8 "watch" it means that your day begins at 4:00 AM, "on watch." At 8:00 you are relieved of watch an you go to your regular work station and duties until 4:00 in the afternoon. After that you go back on the 4:00 to 8:00 PM watch. That leaves 8 hours for everything else. Of course the watches rotate and you would only have that situation for once ever three weeks. If you had the 8:00 -12:00 watch, your work day is only 12 hours long because watch and working hours overlap.

"Watches, mean that you are doing the work that you specialize in. It could be monitoring equipment such as radar, sonar, typewriter, or monitoring engineering systems. It is work.

The punishment that goes with a Captain's mast is generally fair so as not to breed too much resentment in the ranks. If you come back to the ship, drunk and disorderly and with a loose mouth, you know what could be coming. On occasion, I came back to the ship quite stewed after an evening drinking beer at the EM club, but I never showed my butt too bad coming back aboard, I may stumble up the gangplank but I always remembered to salute the OOD (even if there appeared to be two of them) and I would then find my rack and go to sleep so I never personally experienced non-judicial punishment. I wasn't an angel, but I managed to stay out of trouble.

As far as being discharged under less than honorable circumstances, I never knew anyone who was. I knew some people who got general discharges, but they were generally medically related and left VA benefits intact. A Court's martial would usually involve some kind of criminal behavior like drugs or serious theft, perhaps striking an officer. By the time you get to a regular duty station, the service has enough invested in you to try to save you, but there are limits that you can't exceed and avoid a DD or jail or both. Sailors got constant reminders of what could happen if you cross the line. I have a vague memory of a publication that came out, I believe, Navy Wide, that named the worst offenders and their punishments. Some of those punishments were for homosexual activities, and at the time, the punishment varied as to whether the offender was and "active" or "passive" partner... This was around 1970.

[calimary]

19. " He is too dangerous t national security to remain free."

No freakin’ shit!

[LaMouffette]

25. Great response post! Someone on MSNBC said that it did not matter if the material was declassified.

It still did not belong to Trump and he shouldn't have taken it.

And also, regardless of the material's status, what did Trump do with it? Who did he show it to? Who did he sell it to?

I'm still in shock, even though we're talking Trump here, that an American president may have actually sold top-secret documents to one or several of our adversaries.

[Novara]

26. "Trump needs to be charged and he needs to be charged today."

That's what I wrote to the DOJ.

https://www.justice.gov/contact-us

[Tacan]

41. I was an ET in the Navy stationed on an Amphibious Flag ship during Viet Nam.

Even the tech manuals for the equipment were not allowed out of the secure area. They treated it seriously and we all knew what the consequences would be if we broke the rules. The equipment was Top Secret, but not anyway close to what Trump** took. LOCK HIM UP!

[Submariner]

42. destroying government property

Your friend may have seen the 1950s comedy movie 'Wackiest Ship in the Army' with Ricky Nelson and Jack Lemmon. There are a couple of movie scenes of cups of coffee being tossed over the side, and that being looked on approvingly by the CO/XO. Your CO just had no sense of humor

As movie PO on the boats, I used to steal those big aluminum cans of coffee grounds, tubs of ice cream, and cases of steaks, then trade all that at the lower base movie exchange where I would get the latest James Bond and Western gunfight movies before lighting off the diesels.

The wardroom looked the other at my thefts, because my bartering always ended up with good flicks at sea. We were more like the Operation Petticoat boat Navy than anything we see today.

[Haggis 4 Breakfast]

56. If you were actually on a sub, like my brother . . . .

Who was a nuke, you guys had even stricter rules to follow. I once asked him to take a picture of something on the sub - him at his work station - and he said "No way. I hate Portsmouth. Even in good weather, which there never is."

[Submariner]

60. Not only could no nuke boat pictures be taken

pictures were not allowed of the diesel and nuke boats lined up in port at the piers.

We were all anti-Soviet in the 60s, and in no mood for treason or sabotaging of equipment like the Ruskies.

[Haggis 4 Breakfast]

61. Funny you mention diesel boats.

One of his buddies, a Chief, served on the LAST diesel submarine still in use. Whenever he came home, his Filipino wife refused to launder his clothes. She took his entire ditty bag and threw it in the trash. He was always buying new bags.

[2abigbman]

63. Point Loma navy base

I.trained at Point Loma Sub base(DOJ). We were told under no circumstance was photography allowed. If subs were in dock it was even worse. No parking anywhere near the piers. Armed sea patrols in the bay. So the idea that nuclear materials were taken to a public golf club is horrific. I didn't have to told why no photographs.

[Ms. Toad]

44. The fact that he was POTUS makes it different.

While I agree that he should be charged, the outcome is not so clear.

Whether the president has to follow proper procedures (created by executive orders issued by the prior presidents) in order to declassify information is untested law. It is possible that his unorthodox method of declassification, done without the benefit of a new executive order, would still fall within his inherent power.

(That does not cover any nuclear information, however, which requires the cooperation of senior officials at the Energy and Defense Departments, with the President serving as a tie-breaker in case they disagree. The president, alone, cannot lessen the restrictions on nuclear information.)

[stopdiggin]

58. as loath as I am to admit it, I think you are probably correct

in offering that the 'classified - unclassified' thicket is probably uncharted territory as it stands - and as such not nearly as cut and dried as a lot 'experts' purport it to be.

On a happier note - as is also being pointed out, other aspects of this breach probably rest on much more solid ground. And, ultimately - I don't think he's able to "presidential powers" himself out of this.

[Ms. Toad]

59. He can't presidential powers himself out of lowering the restrictions on nuclear information.

He's only the tie breaker there.

[grantcart]

47. Had it been a cup full of strawberries he would have faced hard time

🤣

[druidity33]

65. Your captain was kinda a jerk then...

"here, do something with this"... is a pretty stupidly vague thing to say.

[nycbos]

5. But evidence doesn't matter to these people.

[Escurumbele]

13. But it has to matter to the DOJ, republicans may not care about it, or pretend they don't

but the law must punish all of them, they don't decide who is made accountable and who is not, the DOJ must decide that.

[brooklynite]

7. Your posted Tweet has nothing to do with the headline or story.

[flying_wahini]

12. So?

[brooklynite]

17. So why include it?

[brush]

10. Your last paragraph says it all. The Presidential Records Act...

specifies that all the documents from his admin got to the National Archives. Certainly not to his Florida basement.

There was no valid reason for these documents to be held in a storage room at Mar-a-Logo. TFG is attempting to distract from this fact and these efforts are not working.

[OMGWTF]

14. Look in Ivana's coffin for more documents

It took TEN struggling men to heft the coffin of a cremated woman. Why?

[LetMyPeopleVote]

16. For this thread

Link to tweet

[calimary]

20. OMG!

He didn’t stoop THAT low… ?

[Hekate]

23. It's probably an old mob boss trick. The grave's a fine and private place...

[gab13by13]

31. When I was a little kid back in the 50's,

I would visit my aunt in Buffalo. She told me that a particular funeral home was owned by the mafia. She told me that more than one casket had more than one body in it.

[Eyeball_Kid]

30. What a question! Trump's depravity has no bottom. n/t

[Eyeball_Kid]

29. Ivana's ashes may not even BE in the coffin! But classified documents,

on Trump's property, may have found a superior hiding place. Since it's all on Trump's property, he can dig them up at his convenience.

[calimary]

33. Does one get a search order or some such thing?

If it’s true that strong men struggled to lift a coffin of a cremated woman, then one HAS TO ASK what made that coffin so heavy.

[Hekate]

37. Exhumation

[GreenWave]

52. Did any Trump family members carry the casket?

Also why would they have decision making over her body?

[Hekate]

53. Well, three of them are her actual children, so absent specific instructions in her Will/End of Li...

…. papers, they would definitely have a say.

My husband has said from the start that he thinks she was shoved down the stairs because of something she knew and said that she knew. Her death was terribly convenient.

It is just odd that they said she was cremated, and then there was this massive rose-gold coffin that had to be lugged by a bunch of big men. Clearly we misunderstood about the cremation.

Clearly. We must have misunderstood.

[wnylib]

66. Cremation gets rid of murder evidence

as well as providing a place to hide documents.

Nothing is too low for a crime boss.

[Orrex]

22. Simple common sense defeats just about every defense offered so far

It makes no sense that Trump would pilfer documents that weren't "truly classified," because what would be the point?

For that matter, what would be the point of stealing non-classified documents at all?

Trump isn't sentimental, so there's no explanation there. If he intended them for some kind of library for the illiterate, there are established channels for that. And everything Trump does is done with the ultimate goal of making money or otherwise securing leverage to avoid later accountability.

With all of this in mind, it is unthinkable that he took documents of no value, and it is unthinkable that he had any intent other than to sell those documents.

[calimary]

34. Nope. He did it for the VALUE of those documents.

He probably has lists of crackpot people and “government” structures that would pay BIG bucks for those documents. He has favorites among them, too.

Maybe he’s offering the documents in exchange for not just money but a safe haven where he’s protected from arrest and seizure.

[Eyeball_Kid]

27. REMEMBER! Classification of Docs is IRRELEVANT!

ANY theft of government documents is a felony. AND: ANY theft of government documents that can be deemed to contain national security information (without classification) that places the nation in a vulnerable state can be prosecuted as an act of espionage.

Further, the DOJ MUST assume that because Trump stole them, he may be presently be in the act of compromising national security. He may have made copies for sale, he may be in the process of making a deal with foreign entities, and he can be doing that RIGHT NOW.

That's why many folks who worked in the national security realm are stressing that Trump must be indicted immediately and taken into custody. He doesn't deserve the gravitas of an ex-president. He deserves arrest and detention until trial, FOR THE SAKE OF THE COUNTRY.

[Brainfodder]

32. Execution please, nothing else should do, 300,000+ extra caz of the asshole.

Not forgotten!

The endless grift is really making fools of Republicans besides their obvious endless greed/corruption.

THEY SUCK!

[DallasNE]

35. Another Thing Not Mentioned

Is that Trump had no legitimate need for these documents after January 20, 2021. Indeed, he no longer even had security clearance to even view these documents after that date. Also, Trump would need somebody to interpret the documents for him. The only use he would have for them is to monetize them. From the highest bidder.

[boyedav1969]

36. The thing is...

...there is only one reason at all that he would have them. He only ever does thing to serve himself. He wouldn't keep them just for himself. It's about what he can get for them. Quid pro quo, or cash, or whatever.

I'd be willing to bet they've got a smoking gun when it comes to the unauthorized transfer of information, be it Trump and Putin (or a similar foreign entity), or their surrogates. Finding that same information in the documents Trump had, and even recovering fingerprints, will be the final nails.

I can't imagine that seeking and authorizing a no-knock warrant on a former president, citing investigation of espionage and obstruction, would happen unless there was already an abundance of incriminating evidence. You don't tip your hand like this until you already have what you need.

[wnylib]

67. Wonder if there is any relation to these documents and

Biden's trip to Saudi Arabia.

[jcgoldie]

38. declassified and forgot to file the paperwork...

Sort of like when they catch you with a tv in the walmart parking lot that you forgot to scan at the register...

[LiberalFighter]

39. Trump cannot legally have possession of the government documents.

[ThoughtCriminal]

40. Why would he declassify nuclear weapon secrets?

No attempt by Trump and his henchmen to even begin to explain why he would spend his last days in office de-classifying nuclear weapon secrets.

Why doesn't anybody even ask this?

Because they already know he didn't.

So let me get all this straight - He declassified the "Homework" that the FBI "planted"?

[LetMyPeopleVote]

45. Opinion Leaving with nuclear secrets would be Trump's dumbest, scariest stunt yet

It would be criminal to leave nuclear material with TFG

Link to tweet

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/08/15/trump-secret-documents-dumbest-stunt/

A defeated former president who was at the center of a failed coup allegedly walks out the door with nuclear secrets, refuses to give them back and then leaves a creepy, semi-threatening message for the attorney general — that’s apparently where we are. Donald Trump and his apologists are as dangerous to our national security as spies and traitors who would spirit away our most closely held secrets.

The documents at issue supposedly include material so confidential it merits a top secret rating (TS/SCI) that no president — let alone an ex-president — can wish away.

Former FBI special agent and lawyer Asha Rangappa dismisses Trump’s assertion that he declassified everything: “The claim is bogus because clearly the current position of the United States government is that these documents are classified. This is controlling, whatever he did before he left office.” She adds, “He has no classification authority as of Jan. 20, 2021. Trump forgets that whatever awesome powers and immunities he held as president now belong to [President] Biden.”

Indeed, this nondefense bolsters the conclusion that Trump knew the documents were classified. “It is an admission because it would mean Trump had knowledge of the content of the documents, and that he apparently planned to remove them once relabeled,” observes Ryan Goodman, national security law expert and co-editor of Just Security......

If the reported facts are true, Trump knowingly took the country’s most sensitive secrets, refused to give them back and, through his lawyer, falsely attested he had no such documents. Whatever his ultimate motive (e.g., selling secrets, showing he’s somehow still in power), no senior civilian official, let alone the president, has ever engaged in such appalling conduct. And the GOP not only defends him but smears and endangers the FBI through deliberate disinformation. No national party has ever done that, either.

Whatever criminal indictments follow, all but MAGA cultists should acknowledge that neither Trump nor his party is fit to hold office.

[Dysfunctional]

51. So, he just proved that certain classified material wasn't declassified.

Not only is this what the document is about, but the codewords for Secret and Top Secret are classified, that is why the codeword on a document must be deleted when the document is declassified.

[drray23]

57. I don't agree with the conclusion this author draws.

the plans did not backfire. They worked perfectly. It's now gospel in the MAGA world that the FBI is corrupt and Trump did nothing wrong.
Heck , some already gave their live based on that.

Trump's audience is not rational thinking people, it's his cult followers.

It certainly won't help him legally but he is hoping to start a civil war.

[Cha]

62. Yeah, DT(?Domestic Terrorist) can

Lie his Fool head OFF.. Not Working.

[SunSeeker]

64. K & R

[LetMyPeopleVote]

68. For this thread

Link to tweet