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Iwasthere

(3,208 posts)
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 04:34 PM Aug 2022

He has committed TRE45ON

Proof will certainly be revealed. Our justice system must hold him accountable. The bribe money and death threats will only keep him afloat for so long. This AG cannot be bought imo...

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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He has committed TRE45ON (Original Post) Iwasthere Aug 2022 OP
Treason requires an act of war to be declared, meaning there can be no prosecutions for treason kelly1mm Aug 2022 #1
Attempting a coup, fits. mzmolly Aug 2022 #4
If you can show me a picture of President Trump attacking the capital I will concede your point. kelly1mm Aug 2022 #9
By that measure, no leader who gives an illegal order mzmolly Aug 2022 #28
Possibly if there is direct collusion and assuming the attack on the capital rises to the level of kelly1mm Aug 2022 #31
It certainly mzmolly Aug 2022 #35
Correct me if I'm wrong BidenRocks Aug 2022 #12
That is correct. That is why even the Rosenburgs were convicted of espionage, not treason. NT kelly1mm Aug 2022 #13
I've seen that claim but nothing to support it. Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2022 #34
Oh brother...sorry to disappoint you... Fiendish Thingy Aug 2022 #2
Okay, try for treason (coup) then settle for Espionage Iwasthere Aug 2022 #5
If he was indicted for Treason, there would be no trial Fiendish Thingy Aug 2022 #15
Domestic mzmolly Aug 2022 #6
Maybe it should but it currently does not. nt kelly1mm Aug 2022 #10
I'm not sure mzmolly Aug 2022 #29
I am. nt kelly1mm Aug 2022 #30
Since the United States is not at war, we have no enemies. Mariana Aug 2022 #3
Oh, we've got enemies (within AND without) Iwasthere Aug 2022 #7
'enemies' in this context is defined as those the US congress has declared war on. nt kelly1mm Aug 2022 #11
And as soon as Congress declares war upon them Mariana Aug 2022 #20
MF45 leads a criminal insurrection that includes Domestic Terrorists. Kid Berwyn Aug 2022 #8
Where can I read this declaration of war and President Trump's direct involvement kelly1mm Aug 2022 #14
The disjunctive dpibel Aug 2022 #16
Agreed. I've encountered this before with some DUers. triron Aug 2022 #22
The post I responded to stated "Seeing how they have declared war on the United States of America" kelly1mm Aug 2022 #23
Fair enough dpibel Aug 2022 #24
correct but then we have to get into the weeds on 'levying war' It is debatable if 1/6 was kelly1mm Aug 2022 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author dpibel Aug 2022 #26
Is there an echo in here? dpibel Aug 2022 #27
Agree Joinfortmill Aug 2022 #17
treason no. sedition yes. moonshinegnomie Aug 2022 #18
Here's Glenn Kirschner on TFG and the crime of treason... RobertDevereaux Aug 2022 #19
This is good scipan Aug 2022 #36
GREAT bumper sticker idea n/t Delarage Aug 2022 #21
Sedition and espionage GuppyGal Aug 2022 #32
For this thread LetMyPeopleVote Aug 2022 #33

kelly1mm

(4,752 posts)
1. Treason requires an act of war to be declared, meaning there can be no prosecutions for treason
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 04:44 PM
Aug 2022

without congress first declaring war (assuming you are referring to the 'aid and comfort' clause).

mzmolly

(51,065 posts)
4. Attempting a coup, fits.
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 05:28 PM
Aug 2022


Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

kelly1mm

(4,752 posts)
9. If you can show me a picture of President Trump attacking the capital I will concede your point.
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 06:08 PM
Aug 2022

If not, then no, this is not treason as defined by US law.

mzmolly

(51,065 posts)
28. By that measure, no leader who gives an illegal order
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 09:53 PM
Aug 2022

would be guilty of war crimes.

If I can show you collusion with the proud boys and others, to attack the capital - that should suffice.

kelly1mm

(4,752 posts)
31. Possibly if there is direct collusion and assuming the attack on the capital rises to the level of
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 10:26 PM
Aug 2022

waging war upon the US.

BidenRocks

(848 posts)
12. Correct me if I'm wrong
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 06:12 PM
Aug 2022

The last declared war was WWII.
What will America look like under a dictatorship?
They want it now, but.......

Fiendish Thingy

(15,941 posts)
2. Oh brother...sorry to disappoint you...
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 04:46 PM
Aug 2022

But Trump has not committed, nor will he be charged with, the crime of Treason.

“Enemies” is a narrowly defined term, referring only to countries the US has declared war on.

The Rosenbergs, who gave nuclear secrets to Russia, weren’t charged with treason, they were charged with espionage.

Espionage and seditious conspiracy are the two most serious charges Trump is possibly at risk of being charged with.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,941 posts)
15. If he was indicted for Treason, there would be no trial
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 07:24 PM
Aug 2022

As the charge would be dismissed.

Justice doesn’t work that way; DOJ charges crimes they can convict.

mzmolly

(51,065 posts)
6. Domestic
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 05:34 PM
Aug 2022

Last edited Sun Aug 21, 2022, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

enemies. Anyone trying to overthrow democracy, should fit the definition.

Mariana

(14,870 posts)
3. Since the United States is not at war, we have no enemies.
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 05:13 PM
Aug 2022

Therefore, nothing in that applies to him. Espionage, on the other hand...

Mariana

(14,870 posts)
20. And as soon as Congress declares war upon them
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 08:01 PM
Aug 2022

we can think about charging people with treason for helping them.

Kid Berwyn

(15,706 posts)
8. MF45 leads a criminal insurrection that includes Domestic Terrorists.
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 06:02 PM
Aug 2022

Seeing how they have declared war on the United States of America, they are traitors.

kelly1mm

(4,752 posts)
14. Where can I read this declaration of war and President Trump's direct involvement
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 06:17 PM
Aug 2022

in that? I would LOVE to find such evidence .....

dpibel

(2,969 posts)
16. The disjunctive
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 07:24 PM
Aug 2022

Last edited Sun Aug 21, 2022, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)

I think you're overlooking it.

"Levies war against or..."

I don't think anyone will get far arguing that Jan 6 was levying war.

But your belief that treason as defined requires a declaration of war by the United States does not square with the plain language of the statute.

Just by way of example: The Confederates who fired on Fort Sumter committed treason the instant they did so. There was, at that time, no declaration of war on the part of the United States.

triron

(22,135 posts)
22. Agreed. I've encountered this before with some DUers.
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 08:31 PM
Aug 2022

But it clearly doesn't require a declared war. See Glenn kirschners video below. 9

kelly1mm

(4,752 posts)
23. The post I responded to stated "Seeing how they have declared war on the United States of America"
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 08:59 PM
Aug 2022

I was simply asking for a link to that declaration .....

dpibel

(2,969 posts)
24. Fair enough
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 09:08 PM
Aug 2022

But the statute does not require a declaration, does it?

The statute requires levying war, not declaring it.

Else it would be a cool loophole for traitors, no? "Sure, I massed an army and attacked US positions. But we never declared war!"

kelly1mm

(4,752 posts)
25. correct but then we have to get into the weeds on 'levying war' It is debatable if 1/6 was
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 09:11 PM
Aug 2022

levying war and even more debatable if President Trump was directly involved in it (for sure he was not an active participant).

Response to kelly1mm (Reply #25)

dpibel

(2,969 posts)
27. Is there an echo in here?
Sun Aug 21, 2022, 09:25 PM
Aug 2022

Me, post 16:

"I don't think anyone will get far arguing that Jan 6 was levying war."

My point is that you, and many others, seem to focus in on the enemy portion of the statute and ignore the levying war.

Carry on with whatever it is you're trying to teach the lesser mortals.

scipan

(2,410 posts)
36. This is good
Mon Aug 22, 2022, 02:21 PM
Aug 2022

1. Assembled an armed mob
2. To overthrow the government
And/or
3. (Paraphrased) to stop laws from being executed

= Treason

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