How many people are dead because of the traitor selling American secrets?

[onecaliberal]

Why isn’t the media taking about this?

HOW MANY ARE DEAD?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

1. Probably because there isn't any proof he was selling secrets

[TxVietVet]

2. Yet.

[Eliot Rosewater]

3. It is irresponsible to say there is no proof, just because we dont know about it doesn't

mean it does not exist.

GRRRRR

Thanks for your response...I am not addressing my ANGER at you.

Saying there IS NO PROOF when you cant possibly know if that is true, sigh.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

14. I don't know that there's buried treasure in a local park

Should I report that there is in the newspaper just because we don't know that it isn't there?
YOu are saying you don't know, but you think so, so therefore the news should treat it like truth.
Steven Colbert coined a word for that...

Note, I'm not saying he didn't sell secrets, or wasn't planning on selling secrets. But we can't treat it like fact when there is ZERO evidence to support it, just conspiracy theories.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

9. Then when it is provable, it can be reported

Newspapers that publish unsourced accusations get sued.

[brush]

5. It's pretty certain Kushner gave/sold the location and...

activities of Jamal Khashoggi to Saudi crown prince MBS, which resulted in the journalist's gruesome death.

trump and his cabal didn't steal those classibied docs for nothing.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

8. Again - no proof

Newspapers aren't going to run with your conspiracy theories without any evidence.
And despite speculations as to why he did it, there is ZERO evidence backing it up.
Newspaper story is "Documents marked classified found at Mar-A-Lago" because that is about the only thing provable.

[brush]

15. Do you doubt MBS got info from US on Khashsoggi's location?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

17. Maybe

It's certainly possible. It's also possible that the Saudis got it from Russia. Or Turkey. Probably not Israel.
But unless you have proof it's not news, it's a conspiracy theory.

[brush]

21. No wonder trump keeps slithering out of consequences.

[Fiendish Thingy]

4. Please link to a source with evidence that Trump sold secrets

If you can’t find a link, that explains why the isn’t talking about it.

[Scrivener7]

7. Can you provide me with a link that says the sun is going to come up tomorrow?

Yet you have enough experience with mornings that you are pretty certain the sun will show up.

I think we have enough experience with tfg to know exactly what he did with those enormously sensitive national secrets.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

11. Will the sun sue for libel?

People don't seem to understand the difference between truth and speculation.
Trump had classified documents at Mar-A-Lago. (Truth)
Anything beyond that is speculation, and that's not the province of reporters, no matter what a fabulist like Seth Abrahamson says.

[Scrivener7]

25. The province of reporters is to ask the questions. Like: "Has there been any evidence of

activity in our security forces and among covert employees around the world that would indicate that our national security has been compromised by the information in these documents?"

I haven't heard that question asked.

I haven't heard "How did he get the papers out of the Federal building security pods?" asked.

I haven't heard "How did it take a year for us to BEGIN to try to get TS/SCI documents back from tfg?"

I know, I know. You are going to tell me to get a job with a network and ask the questions myself. Because, for some reason, some people seem to think that's a clever reply. It really isn't.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

34. What exactly do these questions have to do with

"Trump sold secrets to the Saudis and had Khashoggi killed"

That was the original assertion. And you've been told repeatedly that its not backed by any evidence.

As to the questions you proposed
1) No way that's getting answered. You don't get to know confidential information.
2) That should be asked, but again, what does that have to do with selling secrets to the Saudis.
3) I've heard repeatedly about them knowing the documents were missing and making efforts to retrieve them for quite a while. If you just found this out a couple weeks ago, maybe you should pay better attention to the news.

[Scrivener7]

45. You're going to get a hernia moving those goal posts like that. The OP says

"How many are dead" and "why isn't the media talking about that."

The question about changes in the national security communities that could indicate whether those very sensitive national secrets got out is right on target for that. HOW those very sensitive national secrets got out would be the logical followup to such a question.

But you should go to the papers and tell them you think I'm not answering the question about the Saudis and Kashoggi.

[onenote]

46. You appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding about SCIFs and SCI material

There seems to be assumption that it is created, stored and never leaves security pods.

Well, material gets created and then it gets classified and marked. The intelligence officials and operatives reporting sensitive information don't travel to some "pod" to record the information they've learned. It gets transmitted via secure means to the folks with the authority to classify it.

And SCIFs can be permanent or temporary. When the President is on AF One, it can be a SCIF. When he's in a hotel room, it can be a SCIF. And when he's in the White House, it can be a SCIF. Moreover, copies of SCI documents can be and are made -- its not as if folks gathered in the WH Situation Room to discuss a sensitive matter pass one piece of paper around. Even after they're labelled, SCI documents can be transported -- again, these documents are reviewed in the White House, not created there. When the President finishes with an SCI document it is supposed to be kept somewhere in a SCIF -- it doesn't have to be the same SCIF from where it originated and it doesn't have to be the same copy.

As for why it took a year? Well, because there was no way to know that there were SCI documents at Mar a Lago until the first 15 boxes of documents were delivered to NARA in January 2022 and they had an opportunity to review what was sent them. It is entirely possible that the documents found in those boxes are copies of documents that also may have been included in the materials that the NARA already has. The security breach is that he had those documents at Mar a Lago, not that they were the only copies of those documents.

[Scrivener7]

51. Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my understanding. I never said, nor

did I ever think, that they are created and stored and never leave the security pods.

And you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes a SCIF. No, a hotel room cannot be a SCIF just because the president is in it. The construction of SCIFs is subject to rigorous security standards that are very specifically described. Nor can the White House be a SCIF, for the same reason, though the situation room and other places in the White House have been constructed as SCIFs.

And no. Often copies of SCI documents CANNOT be made, depending on the type of information they include. Remember the Senators all going into the SCIF to review the documentation on Kavanaugh's sexual misconduct? They DID pass around ONE SINGLE copy of the information. If copies are made, those copies are as rigorously controlled as the original documents. That's why you can't bring phones or recording equipment or PENS into SCIFs.

And yes, SCI documents can be transported but, again, only under rigorous security conditions and with a clear chain of custody among specially designated security personnel. They are not supposed to be able to be packed in boxes and carried in a moving van to Florida.

Given that is how they are transported, WHY was there no way to know there were SCI documents at Mar a Lago? Again, how did they escape the security requirements to get where they got?

[Fiendish Thingy]

12. The question was regarding why the media isn't talking about deaths caused by sale of secrets

The answer is:
The media isn’t talking about how many deaths were caused by Trump selling secrets because there is no evidence for either sales of secrets or resulting deaths.

But continue to speculate and make assumptions, I’m sure it will help you pass the time until you actually know something.

[Scrivener7]

16. You demanded a link to proof that tfg sold national secrets. I was responding to you.

And yes. I feel quite comfortable with the assumption that tfg sold national secrets that were in the hundreds of top secret documents that he stole. Because I'm not a moron. So yes, I will continue to make that assumption.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

18. Why not pitch that story to a newspaper then?

If you're so sure that it's true, try to sell it to someone who has actual liability when Trump/Kushner/MBS sues them. Truthiness isn't an excuse.

[Scrivener7]

22. Can you guys come up with any other response than that one? "You don't like what the national

security apparatus and media are doing, then YOU do it!"

That is really stupid.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

23. Well, you ARE the one claiming to know the truth

But apparently you don't actually care enough to find out if it really is the truth, or propose it to someone who will laugh you out of their office when you present your conspiracy theory as fact.

There is a forum on this site for conspiracy theories, and it isn't General Discussion.

[Scrivener7]

26. Again. Not the clever ripost you guys seem to think it is. Really. Quite silly, actually.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

28. Hey, I'm not the one creating fantasies and accusing others of not believing them

But keep on digging, maybe you'll find your proof eventually.

[Scrivener7]

36. You should go to the papers and pitch them the story that people assume tfg sold those

national secrets he stole.

Not sure why we all need to go to the papers over this discussion, but apparently its a thing.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

39. When you complain that the "news" isn't reporting something

Maybe that's because you want the "news" to report it.

I'm not complaining about the news not engaging in idle speculation.

[Scrivener7]

40. Go pitch them that story about you not complaining. That's a thing now, it seems.

[Fiendish Thingy]

19. I prefer to live in the reality based community

I’m not denying the possibility or even the likelihood, that Trump shared/sold secrets, but at present, there’s no evidence that shows he actually did.

[Scrivener7]

37. The reality based community in which tfg didn't sell those national secrets he stole?

Kay. Enjoy.

[Fiendish Thingy]

50. The one where I don't make assumptions based on a lack of information. Nt

[Scrivener7]

53. Where tfg didn't sell the documents he stole and has had in his possession for 18 months.

[onenote]

42. I probably can find a link that says the sun will come up tomorrow.

Or at least that it probably will because it definitely came up every day for the last zillion years.

I can't find a link that says Trump definitely sold classified information.

[Scrivener7]

44. Ah, but you aren't sure it will come up until it happens. Just like we aren't sure he sold

those secrets he stole until we see the results. Like what results, you might ask? Maybe a couple of $billion here and there, maybe a person dead in a car bomb, you know. Stuff like that.

[Haggard Celine]

6. I've been wondering the same thing.

How many are dead? How many are in prison? How many are being tortured? We might not ever hear their names, but Trump could have put a lot of lives at risk.

[sop]

10. We'll probably never find out how many died after Trump sold secrets because it's all top secret.

But we don't have to wonder how many died during his attempted coup, or how many people Trump killed with all his Covid-19 bullshit.

[Elessar Zappa]

13. Is it proven that he sold secrets?

I believe there’s a huge possibility that he did, in fact it’s likely, but the media shouldn’t report speculation as fact.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

20. It's not.

But truth doesn't matter apparently. So I guess Trump was right that the election was rigged, he's provided just as much proof as the people in this thread.

[onecaliberal]

24. Yeah because we all know the media doesn't speculate. 🤨

If you don’t think he sold the secrets. I’ve got a bridge to sell you…

[Elessar Zappa]

27. It's fine for pundits to speculate but

it shouldn’t be reported as hard news until actual evidence emerges that he sold it. And yes, I said he likely did sell our secrets.

[onecaliberal]

30. Nearly nothing is reported that way. If it were we wouldn't be in this mess.

There is 99% fact free discussing bullshit on all “news” channels 24/7

[Irish_Dem]

31. If we don't speculate now based on the facts, we are dangerously irresponsible and naive.

[onecaliberal]

33. Exactly

[AZSkiffyGeek]

43. Accusing Jared Kushner of having Khashoggi killed by the Saudis isn't irresponsible and naive?

[Scrivener7]

32. Now, now. What I have learned in this thread is that we must not attribute bad acts to tfg.

Like we can't assume he peddled top secret national documents just because he stole them against all laws in place for their handling and then had them in his possession for 18 months.

And if we feel pretty sure he did peddle those secrets, we have to go to newspapers and pitch them the story that he did. Because that is how we can ...
...
... actually, I'm not at all sure what the point of that is supposed to be, but if we attribute bad acts to tfg, apparently we need to do that.

[onecaliberal]

35. It never followed the law or cared about Americans. I don't give a rats ass about anyone saying

We shouldn’t speculate about a criminal who commits crimes on the daily who NEVER had a good intention in his whole pathetic life.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

49. See the lesson you should have learned is:

Newspapers don't print stories they can't factually back up.

But you're so hung up on accusing me of not attributing bad acts to TFG that you don't really care about the truth, or how it is reported.

[Scrivener7]

52. You should pitch that to a newspaper.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

54. Why?

I understand the concept of facts vs speculation

[Scrivener7]

55. Why? Beats the hell out of me.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

56. You proposed it

I figure if someone says I should do something, they should be able to answer why they think that.
Otherwise it’s just trolling.

[Scrivener7]

57. You just seem to think its good to randomly pitch things

to newspapers. I thought maybe it was a beloved hobby you were sharing because if the joy it brings you.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

58. So you are trolling, got it

Have a nice day with your conspiracy theories. I’ll stay in the reality-based community.

[sarisataka]

29. Best guess is

That the total death count is a whole number but not a natural number.

[fierywoman]

38. Can we start with the hundreds of thousands dead because tfg did nothing when we all

became aware of Covid-19?

[onecaliberal]

41. A million are dead from COVID and that is an undercount.

[LuckyCharms]

47. I'll never forget him saying

(not exact quote but something along these lines):

It's only 15 people, it's under control.

Hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved under a different "leader".

[Meowmee]

61. He also actively did things

To conceal what he knew and to hurt blue states such as NY from gaining access to treatments. And there was the fiasco with I believe the son in law selling ventilators to other countries and many more such events, I am sure some we never heard about.

[ultralite001]

48. How many scanners/fax/copy machines does the RTumpster have at Merde-A-Lago???

How many RTump employees/guests have access to those scanners/fax/copy machines???

Can one see the sitch here???

The RTumpster had classified materials for months and months after his flight from the White House...

Copies of those documents could be made, saved and sent who knows where... or stored on thumb drives or
uploaded to the cloud...

Equipment logs could be helpful... If there are office machines, are they leased or owned??? How many pages
have been copied??? Who provides tech support and maintenance??? How much paper/toner/ink has been used???

Bring on the copy paper... Let's push some buttons... Let's check out RTump's paper flow...

That is all...

[Meowmee]

59. Over one million are dead

Because he murdered them with covid. As for this time will tell, we may never know. One of the first things that he did when he was insatlled into office was to meet with the Russian diplomat in the oval office with no press and no transcript of the conversation. Right after that as I recall an Israeli intelligent agent was compromised.

[Stuart G]

60. K & R