Could a religious war happen in America?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

The deepening divisions threatening our nation are not only political in nature; they are also religious. Today we hear about “Team Jesus vs Team Satan,”coined by the same people who believe that God has chosen them to restore America to its “original purity” as a Christian nation under the governance of white Christian men who are informed and directed by their literal reading of the Bible.

Commonly referred to as the Christian Far Right (or aswhite Christian Nationalists due to their association with racist groups and agendas), the goals of this group are to tear down the wall of separation between church and state, “Christianize” public schools and other government institutions, roll back women’s rights, strip LGBTQ+ Americans of their basic freedoms and install a theocratic form of government in this country.

Today, they are the soul of the Republican Party and are helping to elect MAGA loyalists who support their political goals. While we may think such goals are insufficient to ignite a religious war, we should remember that religious conflicts have been fought over less in the bloody histories of the world, and that today the millions of Americans who believe violence may be necessary to “save their country” are also among the private citizens who collectively own over 300 million guns in America.

Barbara F. Walter is the Rohr Professor of International Relations at the School of Global Policy and Strategy at the University of California, San Diego. In her book “How Civil Wars Start,” she documents the universal conditions that have been present at the outbreak of every civil war in modern history. One of the best predictors of whether a country will engage in a civil war is whether it is moving toward or away from full democracy. Experts refer to countries in this middle zone as “anocracies.” In their judgement, America slipped into the middle anocracy zone between 2016-2022. Since then, a host of other indicators suggest we may be headed toward a violent conflict.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-religious-war-happen-america-120110700.html

[RKP5637]

1. Religion is the root of all evil in the world! n/t

[Lochloosa]

2. THIS

[RKP5637]

8. Religion, period. n/t

[RKP5637]

10. Whatever, n/t

[Skittles]

19. nah

they're all a problem

[Celerity]

39. +10000000000000000

[JI7]

22. There are extremists in others also but they are usually

kept within certain areas . While xtians and Islamists feel there is some mission to spread their shit and justify use of violence and other bad things to do it.

I don't mean all people of the group as in places like western Europe the Christians are mostly non religious and it's more a cultural tradition but not really about relaigious beliefs. In fact they are very hostile to it .

[FreeState]

46. Buddhist here and totally disagree

All religions have examples.

[niyad]

26. All the patriarchal belief systems.

[Sky Jewels]

54. This

I have no problems with the ancient religions that revered things that actually exist and are important to life on Earth, such as the sun, nature in general, fertility, and, most sensibly of all, precious kitty cats (I'm looking at you, ancient Egypt). But the idiotic, convoluted, nonsensical mythologies made up by Mesopotamian goat herders that have males in all the starring roles -- e.g. that cruel murderous asshole & rapist Yahweh/God, Allah, Mohammod, Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc. -- well, those belief systems just SUCK like a black hole. It's hard to fathom that any person alive in this time still believes in the magic and superstition pushed by these ridiculous fictions. The "women are inferiors who must be oppressed and kept out of power at all costs" bullshit at the heart of these tall tales have done untold damage for century upon century. And they continue their reign of terror to this day. Just look at the output of the medieval Opus Dei freaks on SCOTUS if you doubt this assertion.

[niyad]

59. Since I live in fundieville (although a sane section), I love to point out that the

"inerrant word of god" was written as politcical propaganda for a pre-literate zgrarian society. Oh, and there are no white people in it.

Have you read, "When God Was A Woman" by Merlin Stone? And, "The GreatvCosmic Mother" by Barbara Sjoo and Monica Mor?

[Sky Jewels]

61. I haven't, but I'll put them on my list

Thanks!

[Jack the Greater]

55. Shinto was used to lead Japan into WWII

In Shinto,as envisaged and promoted by Japanese militarists, the Japanese emperor is divine, and all Japanese must serve him. Shinto was the uniting and driving force behind Japanese aggression in China, The Philippines and other Far East nations, and on the attack at Pearl Harbor. I would be mighty reluctant to put Shinto on a par with the Bahai faith, which posits the equality of all people, a completely foreign concept to those who considered the Japanese as a divine race under the Japanese emperor. Shinto, before and during WWII, was used by the Japanese militarists in much the same way that Christianity in America is being used today by white supremacists, as it was used in the South, to justify white domination of other peoples.

Just some thoughts on the subject.

[GoneOffShore]

67. Here's Terry Pratchett on religions:

“The figures looked more or less human. And they were engaged in religion. You could tell by the knives (it's not murder if you do it for a god).”
― Small Gods

“Gods prefer simple, vicious games, where you Do Not Achieve Transcendence but Go Straight To Oblivion; a key to the understanding of all religion is that a god's idea of amusement is Snakes and Ladders with greased rungs.”
― Wyrd Sisters

'... as witches we believe in religious tolerance...'
'That's right,' said Nanny Ogg. 'But only for the right religions ....'

Om was handily silent, thereby enabling his priests to interpret his wishes how they chose. Amazingly, Om’s wishes rarely translated into instructions like “Feed the poor” or “Help the elderly” but more along the lines of “You need a splendid residence” to “Why not have seven courses for dinner?”

[Conjuay]

88. Why thanks

I was heading for a record- three hours without a Pratchett audiobook interlude.

For some of us, Pratchett is a religion.

[Mossfern]

71. Which two?

[Just A Box Of Rain]

21. Anti-religious bigotry isn't a good look

on a forum for liberal Democrats that doesn't allow for such bigotry in the TOS.

[RKP5637]

24. It's an observation, not bigotry! My apologies to you if this is upsetting you.

Last edited Mon Aug 29, 2022, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)

[Just A Box Of Rain]

45. It is. Substitute "religion" with anything else and it doesn't pass the "bigotry smell test."

Saying bigoted comments are just "observations" is pretty weak sauce.

Disappointing to read on a forum for liberals.

[RKP5637]

53. OK then, whatever. n/t

[Act_of_Reparation]

69. Because not "anything else" has the same power dynamic.

While being a person of color, being a woman, or being LGBTQ+ does not confer social privilege in most societies, being religious does.

What you're doing here isn't wholly dissimilar from bringing the "not all men" defense to a discussion on misogyny.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

70. Not a bit and that's not an excuse for bigotry

[inthewind21]

72. You are

100% correct.

[BlackSkimmer]

35. Par for the course though, I'm afraid.

[lees1975]

38. Agree.

Christian faith, when not abused or distorted by extremists, is an ally of democracy, isn't theocratic, nor violent, and calls out extremists.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

43. I have never been a religious person myself.

When I was a child and I make it clear that that "lack of faith" was my faith position, it was not always popular or as accepted as it is today.

But as I grew up, I saw a few things. Among them was seeing people of different faiths motivated to humanitarian action as a direct outgrowth of their faith. That impressed me.

I also realized that the worst genocides of the past century were committed by radical atheists like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and I could go on.

Both these elements gave me a little feeling of humility.

Anti-religious bigotry is bigotry. That I'm clear on.

[inthewind21]

73. Dare to

dabble back more than the last century. If you want to see some real bigots and violence. Hell, read the bible. Religion cranks out bigots by the thousands. Are you also clear on that?

[Just A Box Of Rain]

78. I'm clear on a lot of things, among them that religion is NOT the root of ALL evil

as the last century has proven.

If you want me to stipulate that many horrible and evil things have been done "in the name of religion," that's easy. No doubt about about it.

But the political genocides of the past 100 years were in the main committed by anti-religious tyrants. Can we agree on the basic facts?

Anti-religious bigotry isn't a good look on a forum for liberal Democrats and is contrary to the TOS here.

[inthewind21]

82. History

Is not. And well, if the religious shoe fits.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

83. History disproves the point.

Facts matter.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

60. Yes, and the same is true of Judaism and Islam. NT

[Torchlight]

30. I think greed is the deepest root.

Greed seems something every background, religion, belief, income, place, or time has justified in one way or another to better rationalize selfishness on a scale writ large.

[RKP5637]

32. Actually, yes, that seems to certainly be the common denominator! I agree, 100%. It ripples

through everything.

[Hekate]

44. As someone else pointed out, bigotry is not a good look for our side

And yes, such broad-brush condemnation of multiple categories of humanity is bigoted — and ignorant.

[RKP5637]

64. Have a blessed life. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

77. No. Unfortunately, it is a human invention

Wars are also a human invention and I don’t believe we are one bit better without religion

[RKP5637]

79. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point!!! n/t

[Farmer-Rick]

3. I just can't grasp what a civil war in the US would look like.

Last edited Mon Aug 29, 2022, 07:45 PM - Edit history (2)

The Southern states won't secede because their wealth is tied up in the wealth of all the rest of the US. If states secede, will Walmart close all their Northern stores? Just keeping their main offices in Arkansas and in the South open? Will California's huge corporate owned farms stop selling their vegetables and almonds to Georgia or Tennessee? In the original civil war our economies were pretty well separate.

Also the feds provide a huge amount of funding to Southern states. Will the federal government stop funding parks, hospitals, education and subsidies to Southern corporations and banks? Our income taxes fund a ton of support in all the states. Will Southern employers stop taking out federal income taxes from their employees? These are just a few very difficult economic issues that would have to be solved to have a physical succession from the United States.

So a physical separation of states probably won't happen because a lot of filthy rich guys will lose their wealth. So, maybe just a guerilla war with unhappy citizen blowing up symbols of our federal government, or white nationalists? Constant back and forth gunfire and bombs like in Northern Ireland? But even in the British Irish dispute the terrorism and militarized zones were in just one or 2 areas, not in all of Ireland or all of the British Isle. From 1969 until 1997, the Provisional Irish Republican Army conducted an armed paramilitary campaign primarily in Northern Ireland and England. Not in all of England and Ireland all the time.

But I suspect it will just be more of what we have. Stochastic terrorism, low level constant terrorism, bombings of public spaces, shootings at large gatherings, individual assassinations like we have today.

Note: I have NOT brought up racism. If you talk about civil war, you are going to talk about the major players of the last civil war Like the SOUTH, unless you decide to change history to make it easier for you to accept.

[RKP5637]

11. Probably something like your last sentence. Sort of more of the same crap.

It's a damn stressful country.

[Thtwudbeme]

12. Funny how everyone always assumes the problems are in "the South." The most vicious racists I

ever had the displeasure to meet were in Oregon and Idaho.

[stopdiggin]

23. valid point. (NWest has some real sweethearts)

But poster's argument really had more to do with the likelihood of any sort of sectionalism or regionalism in relation to a possible conflict. (note he also pointed toward CA and farm products) So I took it that he was not so much poking the South - as he was saying that (with our fundamental economic interdependence and ties) any sort of conflict today would not be of the sort we saw with the Confederate states and secession.

[BlackSkimmer]

37. Years ago, I spent time in upstate NY.

As a native NCer, I was amazed at all the confederate flags I saw up there.

Way more than I’ve ever, ever seen here.

[Farmer-Rick]

47. Didn't the majority of the Southern states vote for Trump?

They are the most unhappy with the Democratic leadership and would most likely seceed. They are the ones who would be outraged if Trump were prosecuted for even some of his crimes. The religious right has incorporated Trump into their mythology.

"It’s easy to forget that President Trump’s surprising victory in 2016 depended more on the South than Rust Belt states. Trump won all the former Confederate states except Virginia."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/07/republican-party-is-white-southern-how-did-that-happen/

[Thtwudbeme]

49. The only state that consistently whines about secession is Texas

NC, SC, TN, GA aren't going anywhere.

I would be surprised to see AL try to leave. No clue what's going on in Mississippi- but I know they are going to need federal dollars and maybe even the national guard for flooding if they aren't already there. KY? Doubt they will.

[Farmer-Rick]

50. Yeah, I don't hear a lot about secession but

I do hear a lot about another civil war in TN. So, I'm not sure what they mean by another civil war if they aren't talking about leaving the Union.

[BlackSkimmer]

36. Walmart headquarters are not in Alabama.

Pretty sure.

And please stop with the “southern states” nonsense. Everyday I read stories on DU regarding racism in pretty much every state OTHER than a southern one.

And you are very wrong that “the Troubles” in Northern Ireland only affected “one or two areas.” Holy shit.

[Celerity]

58. Northern Ireland................

STIFF LITTLE FINGERS - TIN SOLDIERS

Label: Chrysalis – CHS 2424
Format:
Vinyl, 7", Single, Blue Label
Country: UK
Released: 16 May 1980
Genre: Rock
Style: Punk

[LAS14]

4. I can't imagine the religious center or left taking up arms aginst the religious right. If that's..

... what you're talking about.

[stopdiggin]

16. that's the sticking point for me

This country is overwhelmingly Christian - and, unless you can envision different denominations taking up arms against one another .... I think a "religious war" is probably a very poor use of terminology - and further a really poor explanation for what a potential conflict might look like.

[Wounded Bear]

28. That's what the religious wars of the 15th-17th Centuries in Europe were...

Catholics vs Protestants, different Protestant sects against each other, etc, etc, etc. All "Christians," killing each other to decide who's interpretation of bronze age scripture was "right."

It's why our Founding Fathers tried to "put up a wall between church and state." Those religious wars in Europe was recent memory/history to them. The worst wars are always between groups of people who are actually ideologically pretty close. Hell the whole Islamic schism between Sunni and Shia has been far more violent and costly than what they do to outsiders.

It's like the old Irish question: "Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in."

[stopdiggin]

33. So, where do you see the lines being drawn?

Catholic vs protestant? Southern Baptist vs Methodist? Jehovah Witness against LDS? (being a bit jocular because I'm still having trouble seeing it - here - now) Have to admit the only really serious contenders I see right now for actual militant action - are the Christian nationalists - and I question their ability to recruit even a fraction of support - from other sects or denominations. Can a small minority group like this foment and sustain low level action over a period of years and remain dangerous? Most certainly. Religious war? Not unless you're entertaining a much broader definition of the term than I am.

But, hey - I loved your Irish quote! And, beyond amusement - there's some thought provoking ...

[Wounded Bear]

34. I actually don't think it will happen, my self...

I was just pointing out that the Nat-C's wouldn't necessarily have to attack non-Christians for there to be a 'religious' war. I was mostly trying to add a little historical perspective.

I agree that things are a bit fractionalized for there to be much of an all out war. I do suspect that the terrorism and individualized/small group led attacks will probably intensify, but I don't see any "organized" fighting like in our Civil War.

[doc03]

5. We have been in a religious civil war for 40 years. nt

[Initech]

42. We can thank Richard Nixon and the Southern Strategy for that.

Coddling these assholes was a colossal mistake. We're seeing the end result of 40 years of one sided propaganda. They are clearly up to no good.

[inthewind21]

74. 40 years?

Coddling has been goin on SINCE the civil war. The shooting stopped, but that's about it.

[48656c6c6f20]

6. I've already joined the war on Christmas

And I plan on terminating that egg carrying rabbit with extreme prejudice. So some of us are already engaged in battle. Sheesh.

[roamer65]

13. Religious extremists are good candidates for population reduction.

If they want to get violent, they had better realize there are others with goals in this world as well.

Opposite goals.

This is what has been said to me by others on multiple occasions…they should expect return fire.

[DavidDvorkin]

14. It has been raging since the early colonial days.

[Martin68]

15. No. Our military would destroy it as soon as the first shot is fired.

Unless by "war" you mean "election."

[inthewind21]

75. You sure about that?

J6 springs to mind.

[Martin68]

80. Yes, I am. On Jan 6 Trump was president and his Secretary of Defense and other stooges

were in place to block deployment.

[JI7]

17. How ? Most Christians in the US are not very religious and secular

they are opposed to the right wing racist white xtians.

The black and latino community which tends to be more religious are also opposed to those racist white xtians.

They don't have the numbers.

[Mariana]

52. Most Christian voters in the US voted for Trump.

He could not have taken office without their support, and they should not be deprived of their fair share of the credit for his disastrous presidency and its aftermath.

[JI7]

62. I agree but most people who don't support him are also Christians.

[Kaleva]

66. Black Christians voted overwhelmingly for Biden

Should they also share the blame?

Whites tend to vote Republican. A majority of white males do and a plulurity of white women do.

Of those whites who are religious, the vast majority are Christian. Only very small minorities are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Wiccan or some other religion.

[Aristus]

18. I doubt it.

Gun-crazed Christianist Nationalists notwithstanding, I really don’t think they have a deep enough bench to sustain any serious fighting.

I’ve seen first-hand the latest generation of sequestered, home-schooled evangelical drones, and they are soft, spoiled, lacking in initiative and self-reliance, and too prone to collapse into tears when they don’t get their way.

There are probably a few Bible-thumping football players among them, but most of them would screech and run if they were to see a company of trained soldiers headed in their direction.

[lindysalsagal]

20. As if we didn't watch Europe's constant religious wars.

Which was what the founders wanted to avoid. The only way a democracy has any chance it must not become part of religious fighting.

Because that's always been the result of beliefs in gods: fighting in his name.

We need constant public service announcements reminding Americans of Europe's religious wars.

[we can do it]

25. Doubtful. They're all loudmouth bullies until someone calls them on it.

[Brenda]

27. Exactly!

And don't all the polls reveal a very big downturn in attendance at church and religious affiliation/beliefs?

[we can do it]

31. Yeah they use "religion" as a weapon of hate.

Pathetic.

[inthewind21]

76. yes

It's down to 43%

[Mysterian]

29. Fascists use religion to dupe the rubes

It could be a war against fascists "wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

Quote attributed to Sinclair Lewis.

[Initech]

40. The religious people I know are getting increasingly hostile. It's scary.

And I personally blame Fox News for a lot of it. But could they pull something like that off? It's entirely possible.

[Emile]

41. When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag

and carrying a cross.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

48. Except we've witnessed 50-100 million political murders

committed around the world in the past century by regiemes that were explicit enemies of religion.

Atheism isn't a guarantee of non-ruthlessness.

[Mr.Bill]

56. You know who is not religious?

The people who run religions. They are the greatest salespeople in the world. Most of them know what they are selling is bullshit.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

57. That's quite a deflection from the fact that the greatest mass murderers of the past 100 years

have been been explicitly anti-religious dictators. But whatever.

[Act_of_Reparation]

81. There's no need to deflect unqualified claims.

Who are these "greatest mass murderers"? Were they really explicitly anti-religious?

Moreover, what do the crimes of atheists have do with the overall impact of religion? If it looks like a tu quoque and quacks like a tu quoque...

[inthewind21]

85. Bingo

[Just A Box Of Rain]

87. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot, among others.

And yes they were anti-religious and famous persecuted people based on their religious beliefs.

Do I really need to explain this bit of history?

Let's not get into genocide denialism here.

[Act_of_Reparation]

89. Well, that escalated quickly.

Might as well deal with this one first:

Let's not get into genocide denialism here.

No one is denying genocide. There is no question these crimes were committed. Whether they were committed by "explicitly anti-religious" atheists in the name of atheism, and whether or not they're even relevant to the assessment of religion's cultural and historical impact, is what's in question here.

Now, there's this:

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot, among others. And yes they were anti-religious and famous persecuted people based on their religious beliefs.

There could be some discussion about Hitler's private religious beliefs, but to call his public persona "anti-religious" is a hard sell. This, for example, would be an odd thing for an explicitly anti-religious dictator to say:

I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.

- Adolf Hitler, Speech: 5 July 1944

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Sure, they were all atheists. But again, how is this not a tu quoque fallacy? Atheists having committed atrocities doesn't invalidate criticism of religion.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

90. Genocides that were committed by anti-religious atheists

does invalidate the false premise that "religious is the source of ALL evil," as it is clearly not the case.

Plenty of horrific things have been done "in the name of religion" in human history, that's for sure, but plenty of horrific things have also been done in the name of "anti-religion."

I'm not in the mood to argue about Adolf Hitler's claims of "piousness;" however, I find them laughable.

[RKP5637]

68. Money and power. n/t

[Kaleva]

65. Is anyone here on some ChristoFascist hit list?

To the best of my knowledge, I'm not.

[bluestarone]

84. Actually, i feel whoever first STARTED this BULLSHIT, (wasn't trump alone here)

I feel they were VERY SMART to come at the American people with the possibility that TFG was quote "THE CHOSEN ONE" I feel the only possible way to DIVIDE this country was using RELIGION! POOTY and others using religion very wisely to divide us! It will cause lots of trouble for our country for sure! It's down to who wins in 22, then in 24. VOTE like never before!