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TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:29 PM Aug 2022

One of our greatest mistakes after the Civil War was...

letting Southern slaveowners and revolutionaries off with a slap on the wrist. They should have been ground into the dust of history, rather than been celebrated as misled heros.

After WW2, the Allies, and many Gernans, understood that all vestiges of naziism had to be surprrssed. The Hitler salute, swastika, ss uniforms, etc all were illegal in very short order. Any support of Nazis or Holocaust denial was immediately put down. Germans, with our support, were almost as ruthless stamping it out as they were once in supporting it.

Thing is, there were still millions of Nazis in Germany and around the world, claiming theat they had a right to their views. They soon found out that they didn't. But it is a hell of whack a mole game trying to shut them up.

Here in the US, we never even tried. Whatever the fuck is a statue of Lee doing at West Point?

And so many of those statues were raised in the 1930s as a sop to the racist scumbags of the time. If we had properly ground them to dust after the civil war, we wouldn't have eliminated them, but we would have made current problems easier to deal with.

So, start the grinding now. There is no legal protection for any bloodthirsty asshole threatening a judge or properly elected politician.

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One of our greatest mistakes after the Civil War was... (Original Post) TreasonousBastard Aug 2022 OP
Been saying forever inthewind21 Aug 2022 #1
Lincoln was dead. yellowcanine Aug 2022 #4
Yeah, that was weird, to blame it on Abe Lincoln Hekate Aug 2022 #7
Did I say inthewind21 Aug 2022 #11
He. Was. Dead mcar Aug 2022 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author ShazzieB Aug 2022 #46
Yes inthewind21 Aug 2022 #10
Point is they were not let back into the Union until long after yellowcanine Aug 2022 #14
And ironically SCOTUS ruled in 1869 that they never left the union. CaptainTruth Aug 2022 #40
What good would that have done? LeftInTX Sep 2022 #62
It was Lincoln's decision and Gen. Grant agreed. Gaugamela Aug 2022 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author MarineCombatEngineer Aug 2022 #22
the US had no legal right to ship anyone to Australia (pro tip, it was not US territory) Celerity Aug 2022 #31
I agree with you, and you're right in that it was Lincoln's decision. See Gaugamela Aug 2022 #34
The inflection point was the election of 1876 and Hayes's Corrupt Bargain. roamer65 Aug 2022 #2
Compromise of 1877 moondust Aug 2022 #13
Correct. roamer65 Aug 2022 #25
It could have been as simple as economic genxlib Aug 2022 #3
Yep - the 40 acres and a Mule existed JustAnotherGen Aug 2022 #12
40 Acres and a mule NEVER existed! Grins Aug 2022 #24
I think General Sherman gave out a few parcels personally but the plan was never funded. IrishAfricanAmerican Aug 2022 #27
And why wasn't it put into play JustAnotherGen Sep 2022 #51
It was the Oklahoma land Rush of 1889 ITAL Sep 2022 #52
One of our greatest mistakes was calling it a Civil War. lpbk2713 Aug 2022 #5
K&R, the "slap on the wrist" was the ending of Military Reconstruction Acts of 1867 !!! There was uponit7771 Aug 2022 #6
Correct. LastDemocratInSC Aug 2022 #30
Agreed. All the legislators, generals, authors of succession declarations... brush Aug 2022 #8
Why are we fighting the Civil War 150s past when we are facing the destruction of the country today? Chainfire Aug 2022 #9
Agreed. dameatball Aug 2022 #21
It's a continuation of the same conflict. Voltaire2 Sep 2022 #59
That is a heck of a stretch. Chainfire Sep 2022 #60
Did somebody mention A. Blinking? GreenWave Aug 2022 #15
... ITAL Aug 2022 #16
Echoes of our current inability to simply swat down TFG by simple majority. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #37
a knowledgeable and reasoned response stopdiggin Aug 2022 #39
This message was self-deleted by its author live love laugh Sep 2022 #48
Little America in Brazil Marthe48 Aug 2022 #17
Ah, Confederados. None of their descendants speak English any longer. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #38
I read about them years ago Marthe48 Aug 2022 #45
Military trials at Gettysburg for all responsible Ponietz Aug 2022 #19
And letting Nixon get away with Watergate mgardener Aug 2022 #20
there comes a point where grinding people to dust turns them into potent enemies.... getagrip_already Aug 2022 #23
or for beating up on Abraham Lincoln stopdiggin Aug 2022 #42
grinding into the dust worked really well after WW1... nt WarGamer Aug 2022 #26
You can't get tough with people unless you're willing to get a bloody nose yourself Shermann Aug 2022 #28
All leaders of the Confederacy should have been executed for treason. Lonestarblue Aug 2022 #29
Robert E. Lee's citizenship was restored by the Senate in 1974. Rhiannon12866 Aug 2022 #36
The North was very generous... Snackshack Aug 2022 #33
True and the North gave up on Reconstruction and let the white supremacists take over again. scarletlib Aug 2022 #43
It was Andrew Johnson. Rhiannon12866 Sep 2022 #47
Andrew Johnson did not help things. scarletlib Sep 2022 #49
+1000! Rhiannon12866 Aug 2022 #35
I absolutely agree. scarletlib Aug 2022 #41
Wasn't it an economic decision? nolabear Aug 2022 #44
Good insight. The South had a tremendous 'wealth' asvantage in 1860. empedocles Sep 2022 #50
:) Much truth here! There are always these calls to what in effect would be Hortensis Sep 2022 #53
Every time I hear "Civil War" today I think how nearsighted it is. nolabear Sep 2022 #55
+1000. The food and water we all require for life now come to us through Hortensis Sep 2022 #57
I dispute your point that reconstruction was a disaster replete with graft, etc. scarletlib Sep 2022 #54
The era was filled with graft ITAL Sep 2022 #58
Yes there was graft both North and South all during that period. scarletlib Sep 2022 #61
North could've kept resources and demonized the evil of slavery at the same time. They didn't and uponit7771 Sep 2022 #56
Grinding into the dust yes, executions no. anamnua Sep 2022 #63
 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
1. Been saying forever
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:34 PM
Aug 2022

Lincolns biggest mistake was allowing those traitors back in the union. Lee should have been publicly executed along with ALL confederate officers. The grunts and their families should have been shipped to an Australian penal colony or put in labor camps all across the south to work the fields! Sound harsh? Yes, and it should have been.

Response to inthewind21 (Reply #11)

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
10. Yes
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:03 PM
Aug 2022

He was Shot a week after after Lee surrendered. I stand by my statement. Lee should have been executed on the spot along with all his officers.

yellowcanine

(36,792 posts)
14. Point is they were not let back into the Union until long after
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:27 PM
Aug 2022

Lincoln died. So stand by the statement all you want but it doesn't make any sense.

LeftInTX

(34,293 posts)
62. What good would that have done?
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 06:18 PM
Sep 2022

It was all the low level ones which we let back in during Reconstruction that were the problem.
Southern states were let back in and were all given their citizenship back.

Lee retired and I believe he taught at a university afterward.

Lincoln was murdered a week after Lee surrendered.

Gaugamela

(3,511 posts)
32. It was Lincoln's decision and Gen. Grant agreed.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:15 PM
Aug 2022
After Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox courthouse on April 9, 1865, the general was pardoned by President Lincoln.


https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/lee-after-the-war/

The terms of surrender, however, would be a simple gentlemen’s agreement. Healing the country, rather than vengeance, directed Grant’s and the Lincoln administration’s actions. There would be no mass imprisonments or executions, no parading of defeated enemies through Northern streets. Lincoln’s priority—shared by Grant—was “to bind up the nation’s wounds” and unite the country together again as a functioning democracy under the Constitution; extended retribution against the former Confederates would only slow down the process.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/gentlemans-agreement-ended-civil-war-180954810/


Response to inthewind21 (Reply #1)

Celerity

(54,407 posts)
31. the US had no legal right to ship anyone to Australia (pro tip, it was not US territory)
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:13 PM
Aug 2022

Gaugamela

(3,511 posts)
34. I agree with you, and you're right in that it was Lincoln's decision. See
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:20 PM
Aug 2022

Post #32.

I’ve been saying for some time now that if these yahoos want a civil war, this time we hang the confederacy.

roamer65

(37,953 posts)
2. The inflection point was the election of 1876 and Hayes's Corrupt Bargain.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:41 PM
Aug 2022

To get the Presidency, he basically allowed a premature end to Reconstruction.

One of the worst presidents, along with Dump and Buchanan.

moondust

(21,286 posts)
13. Compromise of 1877
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:20 PM
Aug 2022
~
It resulted in the United States federal government pulling the last troops out of the Southern United States, and ending the Reconstruction Era.
~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1877

genxlib

(6,135 posts)
3. It could have been as simple as economic
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:42 PM
Aug 2022

For instance,

All slave holding plantations are forfeit and the land transferred to the former slaves in the ratio of their years of servitude.

Would have instantly changed the dynamics in the South. Imagine how that would have reflected through to today.

Instant reparations are much more direct than trying to have them 150 years later.

JustAnotherGen

(38,054 posts)
12. Yep - the 40 acres and a Mule existed
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:13 PM
Aug 2022

But our ancestors shouldn't have been means tested. IE - They could have been enslaved by an individual for three years who didn't also buy their spouse and children. They were lost forever to that human being.

That is a million years of servitude.


Now - we have to look to New Deal Era. But we will get there in my lifetime.

Grins

(9,459 posts)
24. 40 Acres and a mule NEVER existed!
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 06:49 PM
Aug 2022

A well-intentioned concept but it was never funded and put into play.

JustAnotherGen

(38,054 posts)
51. And why wasn't it put into play
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 09:51 AM
Sep 2022

That's the question.

Why didn't we give priority on the land Kansas Land Rush to formerly enslaved Americans?

50K white Americans rushed for 9K homesteads.

That should have been reserved for the formerly enslaved. Hindsight and whatnot.

lpbk2713

(43,273 posts)
5. One of our greatest mistakes was calling it a Civil War.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:45 PM
Aug 2022


It's quite often offered as an example of an oxymoron.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
6. K&R, the "slap on the wrist" was the ending of Military Reconstruction Acts of 1867 !!! There was
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:46 PM
Aug 2022

... a compromise after an election split popular and electoral votes IINM and that ended the Military Reconstruction Acts of 1867 allowing the southern states to terrorize black voters.

 

brush

(61,033 posts)
8. Agreed. All the legislators, generals, authors of succession declarations...
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:57 PM
Aug 2022

and prominent agitators should've been tried, convicted and hung or jailed for treason. Maybe colonels too.

Lower ranking officers shoud've beeh fined an amount commensurate to their rank. All officers and soldiers should've not been able to vote for a prescribed period of years. Each confederate state also should've been fined in some way...maybe a percentage of GNP to be paid over a certain time period.

Because there was no punishment, after Union soldiers pulled out at the end of reconstruction, decades of lynchings of Blacks happened, multiple destruction of Black towns like the Tulsa massacre by jealous whites happened. As has the continuation of the deep racism still here in the nation. And Black men/families were not granted the 40 acres and a mule as was promised. Just that would've been at least partial repayment of all the hundreds of years of their labor being stolen during enslavement.

The nation would be a completely different and more tolerant a place if the appropriate punishments had happpened.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
9. Why are we fighting the Civil War 150s past when we are facing the destruction of the country today?
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 04:59 PM
Aug 2022

Lets try to focus on the present.

Anyone who thins that the South is the only problem we face today is just not paying attention.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

Voltaire2

(15,377 posts)
59. It's a continuation of the same conflict.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 04:14 PM
Sep 2022

Our current situation and the events leading up to and including the civil war, and the post civil war reconstruction, and the post reconstruction segregation system, and the abolition of that system,and Nixon’s ‘southern strategy’ to capture the southern white voters by appealing to their racist resentment of the forced abolition of segregation, are all directly linked to the overtly fascist Republican Party of today.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
60. That is a heck of a stretch.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 04:21 PM
Sep 2022

It is like saying that heroin addiction begins with mother's milk.

GreenWave

(12,641 posts)
15. Did somebody mention A. Blinking?
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:33 PM
Aug 2022

You might want to check where he put those 2,000 political prisoners!

ITAL

(1,323 posts)
16. ...
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:34 PM
Aug 2022

Last edited Wed Aug 31, 2022, 08:57 PM - Edit history (1)

The truth is the South would not have surrendered if all of their officers were going to be shot without trial (hell we didn't even do that to the Nazis or Japanese after WWII)and their soldiers sent off to penal colonies (Davis was running when captured and probably could have been killed, but once arrested, no). Instead of fighting in armies it would have been a guerilla war that would have lasted God knows how long - probably generations. The de-Naziification was helped by the Nuremberg trials. Show trials and/or summary executions wouldn't have worked. Hell, Mary Surratt's case is still brought up as potentially a miscarriage of justice because of the evidence, or lack thereof. Now multiply that by hundreds of thousands.

As far as why no one was brought up in a legitimate trial, the Union didn't think they'd get a conviction for treason on ANY of them. Jefferson Davis sat in a jail cell for a couple of years but was never brought up on charges because the Feds were afraid they'd lose in court. Seriously.

Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase to Secretary of War Stanton.

"If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion...His [Davis'] capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one...We cannot convict him of treason."


Judge Franz Lieber wrote "Davis will be found not guilty; and we shall stand there completely beaten."



The truth was, no one even knew if secession was legal or not at the time. The South was trying to form their own country, not take over Washington DC - so from that respect it was a gray area. Obviously those in the Union at the time didn't feel that it was (sort of...various Northern states had threatened secession going all the way back to the War of 1812), but the Supreme Court didn't rule that it wasn't until 1869, and everyone had been pardoned by then.

 

jaxexpat

(7,794 posts)
37. Echoes of our current inability to simply swat down TFG by simple majority.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:41 PM
Aug 2022

The law...........has two parents. The constitution, apparently written by conflicted persons who compromised away some of the hard won truths embodied in the other parent, and the common law. That's the short of it and people who study this stuff would say it's a gross over simplification. It does, however explain our failure to deal with the aftermath of the civil war by repairing the root problems. And apparently the root causes of Trumpism will remain an inoperable cancer which our generation will be blamed for not removing.

But that's the American way, In 30 years the statues to " heroic" Trump will haunt the courthouse squares of many traditionally poor and undereducated American counties. The only difference will be the distopian aspects of climate change knocking at every door.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
39. a knowledgeable and reasoned response
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:49 PM
Aug 2022

The 'summary executions!' advocated elsewhere, was not only neither politically or practically doable - but the idea that it would have 'solved a lot of future problems' - is probably wide of the mark as well. On the other hand, I think a good argument can be made that the craven political deals and machinations that allowed for rapid rehabilitation (and a resumption of terror) - were also miscalculation and blunders of the first order. And, allowing the South to gussy up their history with misty eyed sentiment of noble heroes and "Lost Cause" sentiment - was a further costly and huge mistake.

The idea that Lee would become an honored figurehead for any U.S. public institution (let alone government or military) can only be come about by means of the most tortuously twisted logic and delusion. The 'crazy' in that is quite the equal of the 'scorched earthers' taken to task above.

Response to ITAL (Reply #16)

Marthe48

(23,175 posts)
17. Little America in Brazil
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:50 PM
Aug 2022

After lee surrendered, and the southern rebellion was disabled, the U.S. government required all the southern soldiers to sign a loyalty oath to get their U.S. citizenship reinstated. Many of the southerners refused, and relocated to a place in Brazil which still exists and has become known as Little America.

When I see anyone flying a rebel flag, I wish their ancestors had left the country.

That being said, I see more and more people in all states acting like traitors and willing to rebel against the U.S. government. I don't know how to stop that, but I bet creating high paying back-breaking jobs would win the hearts and minds of a large segment of disenfranchised American families who thoughtthe American Dream was that their children and children's children would live in the same town and work at the same factory forever and ever. It didn't happen, and now there are a bunch of pissed-off, under-educated adults who don't have enough to do, not enough money and are easily led by despots, traitors and fake news.

 

jaxexpat

(7,794 posts)
38. Ah, Confederados. None of their descendants speak English any longer.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:43 PM
Aug 2022

I wonder how much input they have had in the screwing up of Brazil.

Marthe48

(23,175 posts)
45. I read about them years ago
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 09:01 PM
Aug 2022

still observing southern customs.

Depending on their ancestors' standing in southern society, probably influenced their ability to screw up Brazil in modern times.

Ponietz

(4,330 posts)
19. Military trials at Gettysburg for all responsible
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 05:53 PM
Aug 2022

Nuremberg should have had an antecedent. Instead, just yesterday we learned West Point has a plaque depicting the KKK above its science hall entrance.

mgardener

(2,360 posts)
20. And letting Nixon get away with Watergate
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 06:38 PM
Aug 2022

They said that resigning was enough.
No, it wasn't.
It was the bare minimum.
He was a crook

getagrip_already

(17,802 posts)
23. there comes a point where grinding people to dust turns them into potent enemies....
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 06:49 PM
Aug 2022

With so many dead or wounded, and so much destruction, and so much debt, can you really blame anyone for wanting to move on?

Sure mistakes were made on the political front; the second amendment, not enforcing an end to slavery in all forms, allowing voting rights to be abrogated....

But without having lived through a civil war, I find it hard to fault the country for wanting to heal.

It's just a thought.

Shermann

(9,062 posts)
28. You can't get tough with people unless you're willing to get a bloody nose yourself
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:09 PM
Aug 2022

The US was tired of the bloodshed in 1865.

Lonestarblue

(13,480 posts)
29. All leaders of the Confederacy should have been executed for treason.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:13 PM
Aug 2022

Instead, they were allowed to become heroes to white supremacists. I don’t know what it will take to overcome white supremacy, but it is worse now than a few years ago.

Snackshack

(2,587 posts)
33. The North was very generous...
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:19 PM
Aug 2022

There was only 1 person hung after the Civil War was over and he was not even a combat commander. The North was extremely generous when it came to holding any real accountability on anyone for the actions that lead to the deaths of over 650k Americans.

scarletlib

(3,568 posts)
43. True and the North gave up on Reconstruction and let the white supremacists take over again.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:56 PM
Aug 2022

They just got tired of fighting for the freed slaves and gave up. Reconstruction was actually a time of real progress in Democratic rule and real progress for the poor black and white during that time.

Rhiannon12866

(255,525 posts)
47. It was Andrew Johnson.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 02:43 AM
Sep 2022

Rather than giving 40 acres to Freedmen as planned, he returned the land to the Southern owners so that they would "owe" him - and treat him with "respect." And this country has been paying for this failure ever since.

scarletlib

(3,568 posts)
49. Andrew Johnson did not help things.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 07:37 AM
Sep 2022

But for a period of about 10 years, blacks were able to register to vote and won many offices in state governments. They also progressed in establishing schools and businesses. All this despite white opposition the whole time. As long as Federal troops remained in the South progress continued.

Eric Foner is a historian who had written many books on that time. His research has upended past preconceptions of that period of time.

Rhiannon12866

(255,525 posts)
35. +1000!
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:28 PM
Aug 2022

Mary Trump also emphasizes this in her second book, plus the failure of Reconstruction (thanks to Andrew Johnson) is responsible for many of the inequality issues we are still dealing with today.

scarletlib

(3,568 posts)
41. I absolutely agree.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 07:52 PM
Aug 2022

My family roots in the South go back to the 1700’s.
The poison of the Confederacy and White Supremacy have been allowed to infect this country for far too long.

nolabear

(43,850 posts)
44. Wasn't it an economic decision?
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 08:03 PM
Aug 2022

I’m not a scholar but the wealth of the country, not to mention the ports and much of the Mississippi, was largely a result of what came out of the South. Reconstruction was a disastrous attempt at reapportioning all that with the usual graft and grift, while largely ignoring the real problems of the people involved. Yes, the generals and secessionists should have gotten severe punishment but the Union, while on the side of right, didn’t want to destroy any more of the resources than necessary. The resources needed people.

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
50. Good insight. The South had a tremendous 'wealth' asvantage in 1860.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 07:58 AM
Sep 2022

'Follow the money', applies in macro economics also.

[When I read history, I push leaders/war tactics/ etc. a bit aside, and look at economics. My amateur example, a slave family; fed, built houisng, raised crops, produced more laborers, to ever increasing surpluses].

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
53. :) Much truth here! There are always these calls to what in effect would be
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 10:25 AM
Sep 2022

Last edited Thu Sep 1, 2022, 11:01 AM - Edit history (1)

as the far right would do, destroy defeated opponents without concern for the inevitable fallout and enormous costs to every aspect of society -- not just the southern economy but to The People. The consequences of large troubles always come home to the people, and this would have effectively eliminated the governing class needed to cope with the the devastations of war.

Regarding history, , so right, but let's throw in the balance that industrialization in the north (but refused in the south) had become a great and growing source of wealth.

The plantation economies were extremely inefficient, producing comparatively little, with almost all wealth concentrated in the hands of a few who wrote the tax laws to benefit themselves. Most free people were very poor by the standards of those days, enslaved people didn't pay taxes, and the South had only a very small middle, taxpaying class in comparison to the north. This was all ended with the war and emancipation.

The Southern wealthy, who despised northern culture and northern manufacturers, insisted on purchasing the goods they couldn't produce on their plantations from overseas -- a significant national wealth drain the federal government attempted to choke off with tariffs and other devices. This was a significant impetus to war and, again, they brought about their own end.

All this means the OP really might be satisfied by the reality that emancipation and the devastations of war did in fact effectively grind the plantation economy and the planters into the dust of history. Also the people of the south, guilty and innocent -- free and newly emancipated, into dust and extreme poverty. The lessons weren't missed just because the leaders weren't the worst affected. The South's reconstruction era, affecting all levels of society, only really ended with the passage of the great liberal civil rights acts of the 1960s-- 100 years of poverty.

Even more, it's hard to see how shooting the leaders then would have changed things today. Certainly not human nature. And the top Republican leaders and people they front for have been very self protective as they go about their revolution anyway. They have others stick their necks out for them. They know they will be protected by the law if they stay within it because their opponents (us!) are battling desperately to preserve it the way we have to: by upholding it.

nolabear

(43,850 posts)
55. Every time I hear "Civil War" today I think how nearsighted it is.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 02:16 PM
Sep 2022

As if everything in this country didn’t depend on its unity. 45 won’t take your seditionist money for donations, Sparky. FEMA? What FEMA? Sorry, our trucks full of California produce and Washington wine isn’t going to your party and your Kentucky bourbon isn’t coming to ours. Loans? Stock market? There’s a whole new world and regulatory system.

It’s the stupidest idea in many a year.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
57. +1000. The food and water we all require for life now come to us through
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 03:06 PM
Sep 2022

highly complex, extremely interdependent functions.

In the 1860s the vast majority of of households produced some portion of their own food; even a little made communities much more resilient than the less than a week's supply they have now. All lived within within hauling distance of a sustainable water source (like a stream -- that wouldn't have 100,000 desperate people trampling and pooping in it if other supplies failed) -- not now. And, of course, states too hot and cold and dry to sustain life without 24h HVAC and municipal water were almost empty -- not now.

It'd be incredibly different now. War leaders today would take the services over 300M people depend on for life out in their regions as tools of warfare, but most would be lost as casualties of chaos.

Like losses to fire. What could happen to Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles and their exurbs in dry seasons if their fire departments failed to contain a fire, or dozens of fires? Thousands of other communities?

Disease -- with no ability to contain or get vaccines adequately distributed?

As you say. Cooperation to keep our systems going is now more important to survival than everything else.

scarletlib

(3,568 posts)
54. I dispute your point that reconstruction was a disaster replete with graft, etc.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 11:19 AM
Sep 2022

That is an entirely constructed Southern Myth to justify the reimposition of white supremacy. (I learned that story in elementary and middle school in the South.)
Most of the Reconstruction activities concerned starting schools, helping black folk get help with starting their own businesses etc and exercising their political rights.

While I am sure their was some graft and/or corruption it would be no more than in other parts of the country.

As to economics, the South was an agrarian economy before the war and remained so afterwards. After the war, the cotton and other crops were still planted and harvested. Since there were no longer slaves who couldn’t be driven mercilessly like cattle to work to work from dawn to dusk with whips to ‘improve’ their output production surely dropped.
However, that system of plantation production was never restored in the same way.

Finally, even if true, it was not justification for support of the Confederacy, White Supremacy or The Lost Cause.

The country just gave up caring about the fate of black people.

ITAL

(1,323 posts)
58. The era was filled with graft
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 03:06 PM
Sep 2022

It's complicated. Politics, North and South, was filled with corruption. The big capitalists had made a ton of money during the war selling war supplies and what not. A lot of bad stuff was also going on though and it sort of permeated the way people felt about things. Grant was not personally corrupt, but he was friends with plenty of folks who were - Cabinet officials, Senators, and Congressmen. I mean Roscoe Conkling was a heavyweight on Capitol Hill, but also dirty as hell.

Add to that the South had to be rebuilt and Northern firms coming South to construct roads, docks, etc. were over charging and/or not finishing the projects and the whole enterprise just seemed like a bad deal. So an easy scapegoat was the efforts at helping the Freedmen.

scarletlib

(3,568 posts)
61. Yes there was graft both North and South all during that period.
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 06:13 PM
Sep 2022

That in itself is not a justification for supporting the Confederacy or white supremacy.
I highly recommend the book The Bloody Shirt by Stephen Budiansky. This book deals with the period immediately after the Civil War.

What is made abundantly clear in the book was the total resistance of the white population to any amelioration of the economic or political conditions to the Black man or woman. The whites were determined to reinstate as much as they could of the antebellum south.

The South lost the immediate Battle of the Civil War. They were forced to surrender because their resources were exhausted.
But they never stopped fighting to restore the status quo. They won that battle in the longer insurrection they carried on. The North won the big battle with the guns and men but didn’t realize the war wasn’t over as far as the Southern power structure was concerned.

This is not in the book but the next battle was the Civil Rights Movement. The south lost that battle at least temporarily. They are fighting back openly now. Trying to roll back rights for all. The ultimate goal to reinstate White Supremacy as the official policy of the land.

As I said in my first post it is a poison in our body politic. We either need to cure it let the republic die from it.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
56. North could've kept resources and demonized the evil of slavery at the same time. They didn't and
Thu Sep 1, 2022, 02:43 PM
Sep 2022

... the MAGA entitled south revived their image to appeal to white fear instead of being people who nearly destroyed the country.

anamnua

(1,510 posts)
63. Grinding into the dust yes, executions no.
Fri Sep 2, 2022, 08:05 PM
Sep 2022

We Irish had our civil war -- 1921 to 1922. A nasty little episode in our history albeit only a pinprick compared to the American version. This is fairly recent -- I knew people who were involved.
Every schoolchild knows about 77 executions of opposing combatants -- high-ranking and low-ranking -- carried out by the winning side. This left scars that lasted for generations.
I think it was Winston Churchill who said:
'Grass grows over a battlefield -- never over a gallows.'

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