To those who choose to profess a religion, that's fine. I have no problem with you believing

[Atticus]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Omaha Steve (a host of the General Discussion forum).

whatever it is you choose to believe, but please understand: your FAITH is, by definition, what you "believe", not what you can prove.

And, though you may choose to live your life as though your beliefs are facts, they are not. Please do not insist---or even expect---that the rest of us will live our lives in conformance with the tenets of your religious convictions.

All this just amounts to giving us the same type of respect you'd like for us to give you.

That sounds a little like that "Golden Rule", doesn't it?

[EnergizedLib]

1. Thank You

Believe what you want, just keep me away from it.

[Thomas Hurt]

2. Believers, internal spiritual experiences are irrelevant to others.

Believers may speak of God and or Christ’s teachings. but they do not speak for God. Nor does God require their offense or protection.

[GenXer47]

3. Carl Sagan went further

Carl Sagan didn't believe that "believers" actually believe in God. Think about it - they use computers, drive cars, know what stars and galaxies are - it's simply inconceivable that such a person could simultaneously have a genuine belief in something that evades all definition. Religious people say they believe in God to get into the church/mosque/temple, where they receive all manner of social reinforcement, business ties, advantages. So no, I don't respect religious people's B.S. - it's nothing more than a book club, that reads the same damn book over and over and over...

[czarjak]

5. Nothing beats it though! According to the guy who hasn't read it too. Like a miracle?

[Sky Jewels]

8. Religious belief is inherently contradictory to science.

If you accept that the universe is governed by the rules of science but yet also simultaneously believe a supernatural realm exists where those rules don't apply because an invisible sky wizard and/or some other being or beings have the ability to conduct magic and pull strings to control what happens on this one little planet amongst trillions, well then, you've just shat all over science and reason.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

9. Using a computer is evidence someone doesn't believe in God?

[Irish_Dem]

13. I didn't get that point either, computers are just tools.

All humans use tools of some sort.

[plimsoll]

60. Not that they don't believe, but that they don't care about the contradictions presented.

The most solid example would be the 1 Kings 7:23, it essentially asserts that PI is 3. That's actually a really good approximation, but since most semi-conductors rely on wave equations to calculate gap widths, PI = 3 would create inert semiconductors effectively diodes, but not semi-conductors. So no transistors and no computers. Pretty esoteric in my opinion, but I wouldn't want to fly on an Airplane that was built with PI set to 3.

OK, OK, you could create them with vacuum tubes I guess.

[Walleye]

4. Why did they stop saying religion and start saying faith-based?

I guess they are trying to change the label into something more acceptable. I have always said that the word faith completely implies doubt.

[atreides1]

6. They believe in nothing!!!

Few actually adhere to the tenets of their "faith", and will make up new rules to fit their latest agenda!

It's not about faith or belief...it's about power and control...it's about being able to hate the same people that their god hates...it's about forcing their faith on others, because they want their god to love them, more!!!

They don't respect anyone who does not tow their line...and they never will!!!

[LoisB]

14. Exactly.

[mwb970]

24. I agree 100%.

Except that it is "toe" their line, not "tow".

Sorry. Pet peeve.

[BlackSkimmer]

46. Do you think Jimmy Carter is one of these people you're talking about?

The Obamas? The Bidens?

[pwb]

7. I guess professing against religion is same same eh?

Where are your facts? I don't judge least I be Judged.

[niyad]

73. The DIFFERENCE is, that the poster does NOT seek to force their views on others, does

NOT froth and foam. Very simple, really.

[Dorian Gray]

87. I'm not offended by the OP

bc I mostly agree that people should be respectful and not foist their beliefs on others.

But, I also would never start an OP demanding that those with no faith keep their views to themselves... not foist that on others. And by making demands in a liberal forum where most of us who are religious (whether Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan) would hardly impose our beliefs on others bc we believe in a secular government... it's just preaching to the choir.

[lindysalsagal]

10. It never made sense that every little town has dozens of churches

And varying versions of "God's word", and that they never stop arguing about who's right.

The founders knew our democracy stood no chance if it was based on these incessant arguments.

1st amendment. Separate. And accept all other beliefs as politically valid. Including none.

[keithbvadu2]

45. Oftentimes, the method of religion is more important than the God of religion.

[catbyte]

11. ...

[Runningdawg]

12. Name an religion in America, other than the Native American Church

who must follow a book of government rules in order to worship legally. Name an ethnic group who needs a special government issued card to wear or display a traditional symbol of their religion. Freedom of religion or from religion is an illusion, it has been since the first boatload of outcast religious zealots landed on our shores.

[nuxvomica]

15. "Your liberty to swing your fist ends at my nose."

There are many variations on that quote but it nicely sums up the meaning of liberty, and the nose metaphor emphasizes that the most basic right is body integrity, without which all other rights are meaningless.

[OMGWTF]

16. I don't need religion; I have a conscience.

[whistler162]

17. Dana Carvey said it best!

[YoshidaYui]

18. if somehow Republicans rule again it will not be a democracy

it will be by right wing conspiracies and of course their god king Trump to worship. Get thee down on your knees and kiss
his so called rightous ass. -- jus fuck dat!

[Demsrule86]

19. Really, I don't think this is a very respectful post nor neccesary at DU. I will just say this.

To those who dislike/despise religion. I have no problem with you believing whatever you choose to believe. But understand your opinion is not based on facts either-nor is it 'provable'. Please do not expect me or others to live our lives in conformance with your worldviews.

I would like the same respect that I have always given Duer's and others in matters of religion. I would add I can't recall one post where I or any other Christian called you or anyone out. But I have seen several including this one where a poster calls out Christians for no reason. I consider it a form of bigotry (not saying you as I am familiar with you) that has no place on this forum.

[Atticus]

21. Maybe you should READ the OP. It says nothing about Christianity or any specific

religion.

And, it plainly states I have no problem with what anyone believes.

I don't know how I could have been more respectful. If you consider the OP an attack on you or any group, alert on it and let a jury of DUers decide.

[Demsrule86]

22. What was the purpose of the post? I have seen no one call you or anyone else out for not

being religious in whatever form it might take...I have however seen the opposite. But fine, I appreciate the response.

[ruet]

54. Maybe It's An "Open Letter" Type of Response to This:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142965843

That's what I was going on anyway.

[mwb970]

23. I thought it was TOO respectful.

You ought to hear ME discuss religion. You'd blow an O-ring.

[onenote]

29. Yet, presumably you vote for individuals who are religious

Despite what appears to be your decidedly negative assessment of religion.

[Farmer-Rick]

52. Do we Athiest have a choice?

When was the last time an Athiest ran for president? Did I miss it? Is atheism encouraged and supported by our politicians? I wonder why Not?

Here's the real issue. You have no valid evidence to prove there is a god. When you give me real evidence, I will believe in your god....I may not worship it because worship sounds like a really creepy thing to do. But I will believe it.

In the last 2000 years no one has presented believable evidence of a super sky daddy they call a god. So instead they claim they have "Faith", which is how people describe something they believe but have no evidence for.

I have faith that in the next 2000 years there still will be no evidence for a god.

[onenote]

59. So you don't regard a person believing in something for which there is no evidence

as disqualifying them from running the country.

[Sky Jewels]

62. Like Farmer Rick said, what choice do we have?

Not vote?

Unfortunately a lot of people in this country believe that magic is real because that's what they were taught when they were very young. The better ones with "faith" (literally, belief in the absence of evidence) have a live-and-let-live attitude about not forcing their mythologies on others. So we try to vote for those.

[Solomon]

75. most politicians are lying about it anyway. They have to play the game.

[Farmer-Rick]

80. You can't, otherwise who would you vote for?

But it's really all childhood conditioning and indoctrination that makes most people believe in a god with no evidence. If they weren't exposed to it at an early age, I doubt there would be as many believers. And many people say they believe so they can be part of the club.

You don't see a lot of Americans picking up Hinduism or Sikhism because you don't get exposed to it much in the US.

[mwb970]

58. Yes.

[niyad]

27. wow. If you read the OP, please indicate to me where it was directed at

DU members, because I missed that part. Cleaarly, most of us understood who was meant. And, considering what is being done by those cramming their beliefs down our throats, do you wonder? And do you speak out against those people, the "christians" who are attacking everyone else? If not, you have no grounds for complaint.

[The Jungle 1]

41. I very much support your first paragraph.

Well done.
I also agree with everything in the second paragraph except "including this one". Ya made a mistake there.

I just want someone to explain the 17 year cicada. Why 17??? How do they know.
Or how about explaining the butterfly. How does that quick change routine work and how did it get started. Splian that evolution path.
Go on believe what you want and so will I. Just questions.

Now I am gonna pop yer head. I agree that the right in this country does not practice Christianity. So if folks dislike Christianity because of republicans I would ask that you look closer. The post did not ID Christianity.

[Sky Jewels]

63. We are not the ones asserting that a supernatural realm and magical creatures exist.

So it's not an equivalent "both sides" situation. We don't have anything to "prove."

Those who say something exists should provide evidence. Wishful thinking is not evidence, nor is a fictional book of the collected stories of primitive goat-herding societies in Bronze Age Mesopotamia.

And religious people are the ones who have expected everyone else to conform with their mythologies. "God" is on our money, as one example. I had to say "one nation, under God" when I was a kid, even though after a certain age I knew that that murderous patriarchal asshole "God" was about as real as Santa and the tooth fairy.

And talk about "disrespectful" -- how about these insane mostly male religious freaks on the Supreme Court turning women into third class citizens, after men and fetuses, in the name of their asinine make-believe deity and that medieval grifting 'n' pedophilia ring known as the RCC? Where's the respect for OUR status as citizens and people with a right to bodily autonomy? Why should women have to live our lives in conformance with THEIR idiotic religious views?

Religion is a pox upon the planet, especially upon the female inhabitants. It doesn't deserve any respect.

[Solomon]

76. The thing I find amusing is that everyone, even christians are atheists when it comes to some other

"god" or other.

[alphafemale]

65. How about this for respect for your pushing your religion on children FUCK OFF!

I really wish I was able to go back in time and stomp some necks of people who thought tramatising me as a non-belieiving child was OkeDoke

"We are just saving little souls!"

Fuck off with your mind rot horse shit!

Especially when you can't keep yourself from spewing this poison at the children of parents who want none of it?

Youn nXtians are 75% of the population. Shut up with yoiur imagination of being oppressed.

Someone expresssing Atheism IS NOT oppressing you.

[lindysalsagal]

69. Sorry for the damage religious people caused. It's real.

Religious trauma has finally been acknowledged as one of many kinds of trauma. For many, religion isn't loving or supportive. It's a sanctification of abuse.

[alphafemale]

83. I only really get angry when they pull this "I am victimized" nonsense

How is a Xtian in America possibly victimized?

[40RatRod]

20. Many, many years ago, a close friend of mine in his late 60s went to the ER for back pain...

...They told him he had pulled a muscle. He left the ER and his wife pulled up to the curb to pick him up. A doctor was standing there having a smoke break. They drove about twenty feet and he slumped over and the doctor called for help and they got him inside quickly. His heart had stopped. He shared with me that he felt like he was floating at the ceiling and watching them working on him. He said he had no feeling whatsoever about seeing himself and was immediately was swept into a dark tunnel with a bright light at the other end. When he came out he saw people but was told it was not his time and he had to go back. After working with him sometime, they got his heart started again and he woke up.
This was long before the time when it was common for people to have near death experiences. Some might make it up for attention but not him. He lived another dozen years after that experience.
I am not going to judge anyone for their beliefs.

[JenniferJuniper]

37. I had a near death experience also, but

I was an atheist before and I'm even more of one now, if that's possible.

I came away quite sure that consciousness can and does exist beyond the brain. But I didn't run into any God. Or any other Biblical character or creature. But if there is some sort of God my guess is he/she/it doesn't give a shit what we get up to in any realm.

(NDEs are actually fairly common BTW.)

[Moostache]

38. That which is beyond evidence is beyond science and reality in a science-based world.

What happens when we die?

Biologically, chemically and physically we know exactly what happens. Consciousness is lost and when brain wave activity ceases, there is no return...BUT - during that period of losing consciousness and actually dying, a lot of weird stuff happens in the brain that is not fully understood or mapped or determined. Things like dreams, nightmares, visions and more.

These things are currently beyond a scientific explanation that can predict them or model them accurately, but that does not support the god hypothesis by default. Such an approach is commonly known as the 'god of the gaps' approach and it is a fundamental loser for those wishing to use it to support supernatural hypotheses.

How do we "KNOW" what reality is? That was one of the questions of the original "The Matrix" movie back in 1999. What is "real", how do we define "reality"? Signals - mainly translated into electrical impulses - interpreted by our brains? if that is the definition of reality, then all kinds of possibilities seem likely. Unfortunately, theoretical physics, mathematics and more are fields of study and interpretation that make this impossible. That which is true on Earth, is so far universally true throughout the known expanses we have sent (or received) information or light from.

If one wants to plumb those depths and contemplate the possibilities, then I would not discourage them from such an endeavor; however, when one becomes convinced of the veracity of stories from pre-historic desert nomad tribes and goat herders and forms their world view in accordance to other people's centuries long interpretation and re-interpretation, I am out.

The fairy tale version of religion, with blood-sacrifice of scape goats to atone for imagined offenses and gain entry o an eternal, unchanging paradise is infantile and no better than Pinocchio, Snow White or Cinderella for basis in reality. The nuanced versions of faith usually are too complicated and contradictory to garner large congregations.

I don't know the ultimate truth but I do know guys like Joel Osteen, Jerry Falwell Jr. and Benny Hinn are terrible frauds and parasites on the body human. If what THEY say were true, I would not want anything to do with their "paradise" or "eternal life". Life has meaning because of its temporal bonding. We have to act quickly and consistently in the interval we have because it has never happened exactly the same before, and once we are gone it will never happen exactly the same again. We get one admission ticket to the party, and no matter how much we might want to stay, for all of us there comes a day when the party goes on, but we do not.

For me, it is enough to contribute to the enjoyment of others, the embrace of my family and the education of my children and fellow humans during my interval and number of rotations around our sun. I desperately want to be part of that party too...but knowing that there is an end makes that urgent and important. If I knew beyond any doubt that an eternal life was possible, I would reject it on the grounds that it would be meaningless and after a spell, hopeless and cruel.

[BobsYourUncle]

57. Thank you.

I’ve been sitting here close to an hour with your post on screen, scrolling up and down, thinking about what you’ve written, about my life, about the way you‘ve expressed many of my thoughts. I’ve been wishing I could express myself as clearly, logically, and in such a straightforward fashion as you have.
Thanks, again.

[Moostache]

74. I am happy to know it was a positive

I really do believe the core reason for any of us is to make a positive impact on others in whatever way we can...the struggle is that we all fall short, the beauty while we live is to do better next time or at least until we run out of next times.

Just tonight I was also overcom by memories of my departed mother and grandmother...my remembrance of their loving actions keeps them alive in me and their example shaped me to hopefully do ss wellbor better. I find solace and comfort in that.

Thanks for your response and may your journey bring happiness to you and yours along the way!

[Owl]

78. Well said. Thank you.

[Farmer-Rick]

55. Your brain does strange things when it is dying.

There have actually been tests where they put written notes up high that only someone floating in a room could read. No one who has had an out of body experience in that surgical room has been able to say what was written on that note.

Personal experiences are great but how do I know the guy wasn't just crazy because his brain lacked oxygen? And how do we know a devil didn't send him that experience or maybe magical pixies?

Go ahead believe what you want, but quit trying to force your mythology, like life begins at fertilization, on our laws.

[Sky Jewels]

67. Just because something happens in someone's (oxygen-deprived) mind

doesn't mean it happens in reality.

[Skittles]

25. if they would just keep it to themselves

that would be GREAT

[Kaleva]

26. We all live under the convictions of others

And it doesn't matter if they are religious or not.

[Sympthsical]

34. I should've read you

Before I popped off for a few paragraphs.

Because that was my entire argument in one succinct sentence.

[sarisataka]

28. Ah , the daily religion thread...

Not bashing at all, nope, not even a little...

But we can thank Ra that we don't have a President that engages in these flights of fantasy. Could you imagine if we had a devoutly religious person in the White House (or even worse- a Catholic... )

[Skittles]

32. believe me

this is NOTHING compared to the religious garbage heaped on us regularly

[sarisataka]

36. So true

I can't even count the GD posts promoting religion and how it should rule everyone regardless of beliefs.

[Skittles]

40. LOL

I'm not talking about DU, I am talking about REAL LIFE. But you knew that.

OVER AND OUT

[sarisataka]

42. I was speaking of DU,

and GD in particular.
But you knew that

Real life doesn't have TOS

[BlackSkimmer]

44. +1

[Polybius]

82. Got a link?

I've never seen anyone say that here.

[phylny]

85. Yes, I'm waiting to see them.

[Sky Jewels]

64. You mean devoutly religious like those evil and medieval ASSHOLE Opus Dei Catholics

who took away my bodily autonomy and the bodily autonomy of my daughter in the name of their delusional religious fantasies? Why yes, yes I can imagine how terrible that would be. It would fucking suck.

[Ford_Prefect]

30. Magical thinking does not, on the whole hold up logically, no matter what sense it makes.

On the other hand the poetry of wishful thinking conveys the ideals wonderfully well.

[Sympthsical]

33. This is a simplistic understanding

Each of us impose our values, beliefs, and wills on others through our roles in the social contract. Whether we are religious or not, we are constantly making arguments for how society - and by necessity, other people - should be ordered.

Whether or not a belief is religion-based is immaterial. An atheist could be just as vigorously opposed to abortion as a conservative Christian. The atheist's arguments would not necessarily be the same, but they would be just as valid and would be rooted in the same power any other individual has within their role in society.

The Catholic, the Satanist, and the Atheist all get one vote each.

We all create rules and social norms and edicts about how the rest of society should live.

How the fuck do people think Twitter functions? That's all it does. Lecture, hector, and pseudo rector for the morality that should apply to everyone within its purview.

If someone doesn't like a religion, that's fine. I'm irreligious. I just don't give the matter much thought.

But there's a kind of attitude that someone making an argument from religion is somehow inferior to someone making an argument from a couple of rando tweets they read.

The opposite of religious isn't informed. We have religious and irreligious dumb asses alike. And we stick our noses in everyone's everything as an absolute matter of daily course in this country - particularly on social media.

"Don't impose on me!" Meanwhile everywhere on the internet . . . "You must act and believe as I say, or there should be consequences!"

I just ask for a little self-awareness in this world. Some. A modicum. A speck. An inkling.

I'll even take a mote.

[keithbvadu2]

47. When the theocracy takes over (Christian of course), the Satanist and Atheist will probably lose the

When the theocracy takes over (Christian of course), the Satanist and Atheist will probably lose their vote.

We have plenty of folks who want to be the Christian Ayatollah of America

[Sympthsical]

49. The theocracy isn't even close to taking over in this country

Religious trends alone shows how that one will go. For years I was told us gays were going to be in FEMA camps under the Bush presidency. That was just a fact that the internet knew.

There is always a Dark Lord lurking in fevered imagination. Maybe because the actual world is pretty complicated, unwieldy, and sometimes a bit tangled beyond easy understanding. Manichean silliness is comfortable . . . and easy.

The world we live in has bad components enough. I don't need the fanciful and the fantastic to swing at phantoms.

[keithbvadu2]

51. You're probably right but that doesn't mean they'll stop trying.

You're probably right but that doesn't mean they'll stop trying.

[Dustlawyer]

35. +1!!!

[Initech]

39. It's the people who try to impose / force their beliefs on others I have a problem with.

[hamsterjill]

43. I'm a believer.

And I agree with all that you say. I have no need to make anyone else conform to my beliefs, but I do appreciate it when someone acknowledges my right to have those beliefs. So, thank you.

I also realize that there is a whole faction of evangelical crazies hell bent on making everyone believe like they do. They think they’re going to FORCE their doctrines on everyone. Nothing could be further from the true calling of Christianity in my view. Anyone choosing to embrace Christianity must do so at their own choice, their own speed and in their own way. It is not something to be forced.

My opinion of them is that they are fanatics and do not represent the true tenets of Christianity. They are, likewise, free to believe as they see fit, but when they start condemning me for not being like them, they can go jump in the lake. I’m doing just fine.

[Atticus]

53. We have much in common. nt

[JanLip]

56. Perfectly said...

You said it so much better than I would. I respect others beliefs. I would never want anyone forced to believe a certain way. That’s why I am a strong believer in separation of church and state. Thanks for your post.

[Sky Jewels]

66. Even "good" Christianity is framed as a male god & his male spawn (from the sky god's rape of Mary)

being all-powerful in a universe consisting of more than 200 billion galaxies.

If that fantasy hadn't caused untold damage to women for centuries, it would be utterly laughable.

[lindysalsagal]

70. Wow. Well said.

[hamsterjill]

77. You're entitled to your opinion.

But you don’t need to make snarky comments about those of us who have a set of beliefs and have already clearly stated that we aren’t trying to make anyone else believe should they choose not to believe.

As has been stated up post, then I guess you don’t think the Obamas’ or the Clintons’ or the Bidens’ have any sense either.

Totally unnecessary response, but hey, your choice.

[keithbvadu2]

48. Freedom of religion... For some more than others.

[vlyons]

50. Could not agree with you more

I am a long-time Buddhist. There is no creator god in Buddhism. Buddhism is NOT a religion, altho some people treat it as such. It is a practice of training one's mind. To be a good person, treat others with respect, and when possible be of benefit to others. One of the things I like about it is that Buddhists do not proselytize or try to convert people.

So I'm with you on keeping beliefs to myself. If you are curious and ask me, I'm happy to share. But otherwise whatever you believe is your business.

[lees1975]

61. As Jefferson said

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

[WarGamer]

68. I encourage EVERYONE to live their best life.

If that means religion, choosing who and how to love, lack of religion, devotion to science or philosophy, so be it.

The world would be a much better place if more people just minded their own business.

Live and let live.

[quaker bill]

72. Quakers testify to equality and peace

and were leaders in the movement of abolish slavery, to secure equal rights for women, the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, and wrote the first separation of shurch and state adopted in the colonies.

Now, we generally do not care what you believe, or don't believe, in fact we rarely ask each other.

[hunter]

79. I'm overtly hostile towards certain religious beliefs and practices and I don't apologize for that.

Anti-intellectualism combined with religion is a malignant force in the U.S.A..

There are many religious beliefs I do not, and will not, respect.

[alphafemale]

84. They are mostly malignent

Even, or should I say expecially secretive groups like the Amish.

Which are largely a given a pass as being kind, good people.

In reality they operate puppy mills, they will work a horse until it falls over ddead. And they and deal drugs quite often. But they only deal drugs to us "English."

And sexual and physical abuse is frequent since victims have no access to help.

[hunter]

89. When I was a kid my mom was a Jehovah's Witness.

It made me fairly immune to certain social pressures. I never said the flag salute, etc.

My mom got kicked out of the Witnesses because she wouldn't stay out of politics. Then we were Quakers.

The religion of my extended Wild West family was "Not-Mormon." It made for some interesting relationships as all the Not-Mormon kids hung out together and intermarried when they grew up.

I have some very serious issues with any religion that rejects birth control and denies their children a realistic education about sex and relationships.

Since none of my grandparents shared a religion it made for some interesting holidays. For example, none of the adults of my childhood could agree when, how, or if Christmas should be celebrated. Some years the religious wars were hot, some years cold. Religion and politics are always open topics of discussion in my family. Nobody ever shuts up just to be polite or to keep the peace.

My mom's parents were pacifists. During World War II they weren't willing to take up arms against the Nazis or Imperial Japan. Their compromise was to build and repair ships for the Merchant Marine.

If I'm at war with any religious group at the moment (as you protest the Amish and righteously so) it's with the Catholic Fascists, especially those of our Supreme Court. There's a schism within the U.S. Catholic Church that reflects the political schism of the U.S.A. itself.

[Brainfodder]

81. Let be, htf do you have time in your life to worry about other peoples sex lives/family choices?

That about covers it for me.

And there is always, WHY as well.

[Dorian Gray]

86. uh... thanks?

[MichaelSoE]

88. Ramen!

[Omaha Steve]

90. After a review by forum hosts....LOCKING

Belongs in the Religion Forum.

Statement of Purpose
Discuss politics, issues, and current events. Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum.