It never ceases to amaze me how an OP urging tolerance can be used as an

[Atticus]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by JudyM (a host of the General Discussion forum).

excuse to be intolerant.

Yesterday, I posted what I thought was a low-key request that "those who choose to profess a religion" not try to force others to adopt their faith. I made it clear that, as far as I was concerned, they could believe whatever they chose to believe as long as they let others make their own decisions as to what faith, if any, they chose to follow.

Some decided, however, to post nasty disparaging remarks about those who chose any religious belief.

Can they not see that they are being just as narrow-minded and intolerant as those who insist we follow THEIR "one true faith"?

Is intolerance of the "other" not one of the characteristics of the party we oppose?

Just---"Let It Be".

[EYESORE 9001]

1. I'm sure results will be much different this time

🙄

[unweird]

2. Tolerating intolerance is not a virtue

And probably more than a few folks are tired of reconciling tolerance for intolerance. I could climb aboard that train easily myself.

[lindysalsagal]

10. +1

[NullTuples]

65. I will not tolerate religious beliefs - or any religion - that is based on oppressing others.

If someone's religion is expressed as oppressing people who live differently, I will say bad things about it.

The whole idea of "we must tolerate all religious beliefs" is no small part of what brought us to this point in time in America. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 was supposedly passed to protect Native American practices that included naturally occurring but illegal psychedelic drugs. Very quickly though, Republicans started using it to form the basis of their current party, that so-called "religious liberty" - the right to observe one's religious beliefs - should be granted a higher legal status than anything else. And I mean anything else. As recently as 2017, red states were passing laws stating parents were not to be held liable if their child dies as a result of the parent following their religious practices. That is literally saying that someone's personal opinion is granted a higher legal status than someone else's life, so long as the opinion is called "religious". It's a practice we now see ensconced in the Supreme Court's abortion ruling, and dozens of anti-LGBTQ rulings (the most recent being blocking coverage for PrEP).

[mopinko]

3. i had a thread asking for

compassion for the mindfucked among us. you can guess how that went.

[GreenWave]

4. What about the religion of cannibalism? Yea or neigh?

Nudist Buddhist?

[Bettie]

12. Nudist Buddhist is fine

but please wear sunscreen.

[hlthe2b]

5. Yes. I agree

On an unrelated, but a somewhat similar issue, I'm holding my breath with the news of the Queen's declining health that we don't get another bombardment of angry anti-royalty posts that allow no deviation from their conclusion that all things royal are evil-- compassion be damned. As an American, I don't think it is my right to even comment on the future or appropriateness of Royalty in the UK. That said, I certainly can hold a compassionate opinion on the travails and difficulties as they prepare to (eventually) lose their family matriarch and Queen--something that extends to a significant proportion of the British people. The most intense vitriol does seem to come from a handful of (presumedly American) Duers. Instead, this time around I'm hoping for some tolerance on that score.

[crickets]

36. Yes, thank you.

Whatever our thoughts on royalty, her loss will be a heavy blow to her family and her country. That merits respect and compassion during a difficult and painful time.

[Wednesdays]

66. I have no hatred towards the monarchy, but it should be abolished in the UK.

The monarchy served its purpose in the 13th century, but not in the 21st. Give them a few million pounds, and send them on their way. Turn the Buckingham Palace into a museum.

[hlthe2b]

75. thanks for proving my point. Honestly. Give it a rest for what is likely her last few days on earth

Then invite me to any thread you make on the issue and I will be more than happy to applaud/rec you and your take on the matter.

[highplainsdem]

7. I thought your post yesterday came across as condescending toward anyone

who holds any religious beliefs.

An attitude I always find interesting on a board where there's wide respect for Democratic leaders who do hold religious beliefs.

I do agree completely that people shouldn't try to impose their beliefs on others. Including the belief that our present knowledge of the universe is complete, a belief that any knowledge of the history of science would show is naive. (And the corollary belief that just because we don't know how alien civilizations might travel quickly through space, it's therefore impossible.)

[Atticus]

11. I simply have no idea how you consider that OP "condesdending". It was not directed to

"any" who hold religious beliefs; only those who try to force their beliefs on others.

I regret it if that was not crystal clear to you.

[FBaggins]

20. I have no idea how it could be read any other way

Though you now spin it as only applying to those who try to force their beliefs on others - that is not how that OP was worded. It specifically told anyone who believes things other than what you believe that those beliefs are not facts... and that they should not expect others to live in concert with their beliefs (without recognizing that this was what you yourself were doing).

As a parallel, perfectly hypothetical, question - wouldn't it be condescending to have a thread locked and told that it belonged in a specific forum... yet start a new thread on the same topic outside that forum? It's almost as though you think that your beliefs re: what rules applied in GD were fact and not your own opinion.

[Treefrog]

26. Well stated.

Thank you.

[Atticus]

54. Please quote the specific language in the OP which you say "specifically told anyone who

believes things other than what you believe that those belief are not facts".

As for another post in this forum, all posts involving religion are NOT inappropriate here. I thought the political relevance of yesterday's post was obvious, though unstated. Today's post states it.

[FBaggins]

62. The post was addressed to "those who profess a religion"

You said "you may choose to live your life as though your beliefs are facts, they are not." (emphasis mine) Not "you accept them as true and others do not" or "we cannot know whether they are true or not"... just your own belief that they are not true.

all posts involving religion are NOT inappropriate here.

That may be your belief. But the fact says "posts about... religion... are restricted in this forum"

[Atticus]

74. The inconvenient truth about facts is they can be proven or verified. You are free to believe what

cannot be proven, but that does not really make what you believe a fact.

And, "restricted" is not the same as "prohibited". There are driving restrictions applicable to the interstate highway system, but that does not mean we can't drive on it.

[highplainsdem]

22. Your post yesterday suggested you'd consider anyone with religious beliefs

intellectually inferior.

And it was obvious that some people responding didn't think you were condescending enough.

Again, look at the Democratic leaders we admire and support.

Some people here are so intolerant of religion or any acceptance that we don't fully understand the universe that I'm surprised they don't preface their posts about those Democratic leaders with statements like "It's a shame ______ are so backward they still practice any religion, but thank our current level of science which we worship as absolute and all-knowing that they will never try to impose those beliefs on me or anyone else. And I like what they just did and will vote for them again despite their silly religious beliefs."

[Atticus]

45. It did not suggest any such thing to anyone not looking for a reason to wear sack cloth and ashes.

[highplainsdem]

46. LOL!!!

[BlackSkimmer]

63. Yes. nt

[Treefrog]

18. I thought so too.

I'm not getting the point of all these religion threads in general discussion.

Clickbait I guess.

[LAS14]

70. +1

[Magoo48]

8. Live and let live.

[Wrestlefire769]

23. Regrettably, that's too much to ask...

I'm watching friends of mine struggle mightily because they won't be allowed to "let live" because of what the religious people's (I firmly believe and will stake my eternal life on as having faith as false) beliefs are.

Seriously stated, someone posted last night about how the Miami-Dade school board hearing had been turned into a Republican religious revival, as just one example.

"Live and Let Live" is a two way street, and the other way is not going to let "others" have the right to "let live", and eventually to "live". And when you get bludgeoned over the head like that repeatedly, the day's going to come when one finally lashes out, because they have no choice but to do so.

[whathehell]

68. The "Republican religious revival" you describe not only

doesn't represent "religious belief" generally, it doesn even describe most Christians. An attempt, therefore to counter the "live and let live" philosophy with that as an example doesn't work .

[Wrestlefire769]

78. Most people on that side aren't Christians...

All you need to see on that is the number of religious zealots laying hands on TFG, in the picture which was reposted here shortly after it happened.

The fact is, these people want to reform this nation into THEIR Christianity under THEIR God, killing all in the way similar to Manifest Destiny.

[2naSalit]

9. It's part of...

The conditioning we've been nurturing for such a long time.

We're at an inflection point, alright, but on more levels than one can envision all at once. As with most other major shifts in human interaction, it will take a massive, catastrophic event to get us to change our minds and our habits. We never seem to make needed changes until forced to.

[onecaliberal]

13. Believe what you believe. Do NOT expect anyone to believe because you and others do.

Why is it so hard for people to live and let live. Mind their own business. Today's troubles are enough.

[rubbersole]

24. Intolerance could come from being insecure in those beliefs.

Otherwise "live and let live" would be easy.

[Wrestlefire769]

27. I do not believe that is true in this case.

What they are insecure about is the mere existence of whatever "other" they are trying to eliminate -- and we saw that in our history with the "savages" eliminated under the believed right of God through our "Manifest Destiny".

And I believe that is what they wish to do again to Make America Great Again.

Many of our existence is seen as abhorrent, abnormal, and, frankly, demonic and in opposition to what they believe their God would (or should) allow.

If you want a good example of that, I point again to the post from last night about the Miami-Dade school board hearing.

[rubbersole]

30. School board "protests" are based in intolerance of "others".

That's the way it appears to me. A bunch of racism, misogyny, anti-semitism and anti-intellectualism on steroids.

[Farmer-Rick]

67. Well, ask yourself why you can't just be quiet about all the GOPer crap?

Why can't we just live and let live when Republicans try to destroy democracy? Why does it upset a lot of Dems when the media pretends both sideism?

Because the GOP is actively trying to destroy our democracy which is what this country has stood for since the Constitution was written.

It's the same with the religious. They are actively trying to destroy our democracy and a secular government. They want to force a theocracy on America.

There aren't any Athiest going around preaching the dangers of democracy. They aren't forcing others to swear there is no god. Athiest aren't putting up signs all over schools saying there is no evidence for any god. Our money doesn't say, in no god we trust.

Live and let live is frequently interpreted by Athiest as both sideism.

[H2O Man]

34. "Intolerance betrays

a want of faith in one's cause." -- Gandhi

[Tommy Carcetti]

14. Popper's Paradox

For some reason I was just thinking about that this morning. Not necessarily because of your post, but how we should approach Trump and the idea that if we come down too hard on him it will backfire because his supporters might try to turn it around on us.

As human beings, we are urged to be tolerant of other people, except there still be intolerant of other people, so you can either be tolerant of intolerance, or intolerant of intolerance. Best be the latter, as paradoxical as it is.

Anyways, good on you and I agree with the sentiment of your post.

[geardaddy]

25. I love this!

[Docreed2003]

31. Love this

I saw some idiot "Sons of the Confederacy" bumper sticker that tried to say something along the lines of that first pic with "If you want tolerance, you need to respect my history". Such bs.

Thank you for sharing this!

[momta]

43. I'm so keeping this one.

Thanks for posting it.

[intheflow]

73. One of my favorite memes to post in reply to

"Why can't we all just get along?" kinds of posts. Otherwise known as bothsiderism and acceptance. Fuck accepting people who want to criminalize abortion, require teachers arm themselves, and worship Satan (aka TFG).

[IngridsLittleAngel]

15. I spoke up to support trans people being terrorized on social media

I've spent the last three days being lectured about free speech.

[Hortensis]

16. Agree with any call for tolerance and the acceptance of differences

that are necessary to support the rights and liberties of all people. As well as successful parties and book clubs.

My post, had I made one, might have been just asking greater tolerance for the beliefs of others and wishing more people, especially Christian Democrats, felt they could express religious beliefs here on DU without fear of triggering anti-religious bigotry. (Why can't they?)

As for irritations of proselytizing, it's just reality that two of the world's largest religions hold it as a duty, as well as many others of course. If someone here lets some "duty" slip, I've had such little trouble ignoring it that, frankly, I can't remember any incidences at the moment. Though no doubt they must occur rarely here and there.

Instead, what I see as far more of a problem is when secular beliefs are pushed with religious-level fervor, and even rigid fanaticism. IF only that were more rare and political acceptance and open-mindedness truly reflective of Democrats' "big tent" party's as a whole. But this IS an social media forum open to all and we're a very human community.

[Act_of_Reparation]

17. Well...

[Wrestlefire769]

19. I think a lot of what happens in that regard...

... is the basis of what people are doing, using the excuse of religion as a means to bludgeon or even kill people in the name of what they believe their God is.

I have a friend of mine who is struggling with some very real issues regarding how people are using religion to try to eliminate her and others like her from our society, and then hiding under the cover of one right or another.

I don't know if I can safely answer your question and remain under the Terms of Service, regarding how Democrats act. Let's just say this: I'll hope, at some point, that stating that might give you an idea as to my answer to your question regarding "intolerance of the 'other'", especially in light of the very real possibilities of what might happen the first chance the other party might get.

[Iggo]

21. That's why we have a religion forum.

And that’s why we also have an atheists sub-forum…lol.

Because people like me don’t play nice with apologists, and we’re never gonna.

Blame whoever you want, that’s the reality on this board.

[Kaleva]

28. You yourself are urging others to accept your brliefs

I'm 63 and can't think of a single example of where someone tried to force me to accept their beliefs. A number of folks talked to me about their beliefs but it was a simple matter for me to decide not to accept them.

[Rebl2]

44. Kind of

feels like that. I thought the opinion was don’t push your religion down my throat. Also there should be no national Christian religion like some on the right would like to see. They have forgotten that there shall be no national religion in the US. My husband for years put up with people at work saying that Baptists are true religion. He would ignore them because they weren’t worth his breath. (He was happy to retire and leave the maga’s nuts behind). They thought other religions were evil. I don’t want religion shoved down my throat, but you have a religious belief fine.

[Kaleva]

49. The only way one can get religion pushed down their throat is if they allow it

I'm talking adults of sound mind and body.. Almost everyday I see posts here about a member who declares that they reject what cable news is reporting and/or how it's reported. Many contine to watch cable news but they decide what to accept and what to reject.

[ananda]

29. I never disparage anyone's religion or belief.

That's because I truly believe in freedom.

I only disparage them if they are willing to harm or kill
others because of that belief.

[Joinfortmill]

32. I'm with you.

[Mousetoescamper]

33. There are posters here who identify as believers and I can't recall any of them proselytizing

or expressing intolerant beliefs. I'm not a believer and choose not only to tolerate but respect those believers who aren't dogmatic fundamentalists. Are the Christians here responsible for the intolerance of all of Christendom?

I sometimes attend the Saturday night music masses of an Episcopal church in my city. The musical performances are among the best I've seen and each mass features the music of one artist or group. Shortly after Leonard Cohen died, there was a live music program in his honor. One mass featured a four-piece jazz combo playing the entirety of John Coltrane's A Love Supreme album. The Mass follows the musical program, and I usually stay because, while I don't believe, I love singing hymns and the pageantry of the ceremony. This particular church has women clerics and transgendered members. Should I stop attending these wonderful, uplifting events because I don't believe in gods?

So much of the world's greatest music has come from believers. J.S. Bach wrote everything to the glory of his god. I last week posted a video of Ray Charles performing America the Beautiful at A Capitol Fourth celebration. At the end of the song, Charles thanks Jesus. I also posted a recording of a gospel quartet and another by Jerry Garcia singing about John's writing the Revelation. I don't agree with the beliefs expressed in the words but love the music and the performances. Should we not post songs expressing religious beliefs?

Reject all intolerance. Compassion is not genuine if it does not extend to everything that breathes. The compassion is for the being, not their intolerance.

[wnylib]

69. +1000

[LAS14]

71. Absolutely. Thanks! nt

[Just A Box Of Rain]

37. Anti-religious bigotry flourishes on this forum despite being disallowed in the TOS.

Said as a person who has never believed in supernatural beings of any kind.

Bigotry sucks.

[Demsrule86]

38. I get it and thanks for this post. I am sorry I gave you a hard time yesterday. I didn't understand

it from your point of view. I am more used to seeing the 'nasty disparaging remarks" in this sort of post and assumed this was the same sort of thing. I was wrong Thanks for the OP-both of them.

Mea Maxima Culpa

[Atticus]

61. My sincere thanks for that. nt

[Demsrule86]

64. It is deserved. I should not have had a knee jerk reaction to your post. Thanks for the reply.

[llashram]

39. there will always

be those who oppose any reference to any faith in any relgious sense. Faith to me is just what you say. ALL human beings can choose their faith in whatever entity or not they choose. Without being scorned and disparaged if they publically state their religious beliefs or not when assailed by any religious extremists.

When engaged in discussions about faith and religious choice I state clearly who I am and what I believe religiously as a faith. Faith is not a religion. Faith to me is a personal trust in a belief as to who or what one may believe created this mess called human existence. Let those who disparage that right continue on. I let their snide remarks roll off my back because just like me they do not know THE ABSOLUTE truth of who 'the creator' of this mess is.

Pro or con in a belief in a God is a personal experience in my book. Just "let it be" is perfect.

[bif]

40. I've noticed there are always folks who are itching for a fight!

Seems like no matter what one posts, they come out of the woodwork to argue. That's one of the main reasons I rarely post anything here.

[FakeNoose]

41. Atheists and agnostics need to be tolerant also

I read your post yesterday and I agreed with your concept. However it struck a nerve with some people I guess.

On DU we're all so busy playing Whack-a-Mole that sometimes we lose perspective and we start whacking each other instead of the "bad guys." Maybe we're drinking too much coffee? I don't know.

[whopis01]

42. I don't understand the criticism of your post from yesterday.

Saying that beliefs are beliefs, fact are facts, and those aren't the same thing is not being intolerant or condescending.

I don't feel like arguing with anyone who is so determined to read things into posts that aren't actually there, but I wanted to say something about it.

[FBaggins]

51. Beliefs and facts are only distinct things if your beliefs are not facts

If you accept an actual fact - you believe something that is true. But treating your own beliefs about beliefs/facts as though they are facts and others’ are beliefs (and that those are different things) is definitionally condescending/intolerant.

Or so I believe.

[whopis01]

59. I don't agree with your first statement. But I agree with your point.

I understand that you can choose to believe something before knowing whether or not it is factual. We all do that all the time.
But once a belief is proven to be true, it becomes a known fact, no longer a belief.

And just to be clear, saying something is not a fact is different from saying that something is false.

[Victor_c3]

47. You just described my ex-wife perfectly n/t

[Marthe48]

48. I have faith, not religion

Which means I have faith that a higher power is out there, but churches might have a different take on the entity I'm thinking about. I have recently decided that praying isn't necessarily communication with God, however you envision him, but daily praying keeps me mindful of people I care about and problems I'd like to help solve. And maybe I am sending postive or healing energy. I'm not to know that, just have faith that I am.

We humans should avoid going low, and intolerance is right down there with the lowest

[spike jones]

50. I love the way religion brings everyone together. n/t

[Celerity]

56. lol

[hunter]

52. "Tolerance" is bullshit. Here's two examples:

Do you "tolerate" people who are not white or do you respect them?

Do you "tolerate" gay marriages or do you celebrate them?

I'm not taliking about any particular person, I'm talking about groups in general.

There are certain people I merely tolerate, and there are people I will certainly say "Fuck Off!" to when they start yammering on about their cruel and capricious gods, or worse, try to impose their religious beliefs upon me by force of law.

"Tolerance" is a fucking useless word in the context you are using it. It reflects all the crappy history most of us were taught in school.

Everyone deserves our automatic respect and acceptance until they prove themselves unworthy of it by their racism, misogyny, deceit, etc..

I'm not going to make peace with any hateful people under some grammar-school definition of "tolerance."

There are certain religious beliefs that destroy people. These beliefs should never be tolerated.

I'm free to look at any religion and say, "these are the beliefs I respect and these are the beliefs I find abhorrent." That's not a measure of my "tolerance."

[inthewind21]

57. Bravo

[Brainfodder]

53. It's the creepy stuff?

[TygrBright]

55. Atticus - I get what you're trying for, and Yay, you! But...

I'm not sure it's there to be had.

Those of us who are believers and who don't want to change what others believe, may regret the perceptions of belief created by would-be proselytizers-by-force who use some of the same vocabulary, but we know they're not us. And we may be sad about the people who are so turned-off by any kind of religion or spiritual beliefs that they feel impelled to ridicule all belief and denigrate all believers and pick fight after fight on message boards.

Those of us who choose not to believe in any religion but don't care about the beliefs of others (unless they are of the proselytize-by-force variety) may be amused, irritated, or saddened by the non-believers who have undertaken the obligation to ridicule and trash-talk all religious belief out of existence entirely.

But neither of the above kind of people need to be urged to tolerance as they are inherently tolerant.

The others - the would-be proselytizers-by-force (because ONLY their belief is RIGHT!) and the All Religion Of Any Kind Is An Abomination peeps.... they're not gonna listen to any urgings for tolerance, because intolerance is baked into their core (you should excuse the usage) beliefs.

But, yeah... nice try.

helpfully,
Bright

[LAS14]

72. +1000

[Hekate]

58. This

[nolabear]

60. Social media, even here, skews toward the negative.

I’ve been on discussion boards since Prodigy. I got an education fast. Sadly, people love a fight, either you against me or us against them.

As for religion, I agree with you and I think I get the spirit you intended. People are scared of the unknown and we comfort ourselves in ways that have little or nothing to do with logic. I sympathize with that, and then there’s “as long as it does no harm to anyone,” which is a biiiiiiiiiig category. But a sense of wonder, longing for a greater purpose, desire for a loving presence, personifying a granter of wishes…all those things are understandable and not in themselves bad.

All that other stuff, hatred of the “other,” is the worst of people. And, to all our detriment, it gets a lot of time on social media.

[LiberalLovinLug]

76. I have not found anyone pushing their religion on this board

Democrats like Biden, Hillary, Obama are examples of folks who proclaim they are Christian, but don’t preach about it. And respect those who have different beliefs. I think most Democrats follow this example, including on this board.

Personally I am from an Evangelical background. Part of that cult’s mission is to evangelize the world. Its a requirement of their faith.

I left that in my youth and now regard it as a cult, as well as all organized religions. Furthermore I think that religion is insidious, and all degrees of worship of supernatural beings, no matter how reserved gives credence and cover to the wild extremists at the far end like the Westboro Baptist church. All religions are a poison as far as I’m concerned, no matter how “liberal” same denominations claim to be.

I try not to criticize those people, but I do think they give cover to the fundamentalists. I feel sorry for them and a little mad that they are helping to stall humankind’s advancement

[Brainfodder]

77. Read the room? USA is going less religious.

Tolerance messages might be seen as pro and minimizing/excusing their ranks bad behavior?

Do you know of a corporation that would survive if all the leaders were involved in covering up millions of instances of rape or unwanted whatever from leaders in that company?

Don't hate for asking the question?

Don't even get us started on the murders? (in the name of or as the result of, etc.)

In other news:
The NO BS detector folks confused by Fools News yet? (For him, not for him, for him, not for him)

[JudyM]

79. Locking

This was alerted on for not meeting GD forum rules:

Threads about the existence/non-existence of God, threads discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of religion in general, and threads discussing the truth/untruth of religious dogma are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted under Religion.

The forum hosts’ consensus is to lock the post for this reason. You can repost in the Religion group if you’d like.