What Happens to Russia After It Loses?

[Pluvious]

A bit long, but well written piece; here are the concluding paragraphs…

As Tom Nichols, a former Naval War College professor, Russia specialist, and current contributor to The Atlantic, concludes: “No matter how this war ends, post-Soviet Russia as a great power is finished for a long time to come. Putin unwound 30 years of social and economic development, somehow thinking he could sustain great power status on wars of aggression, selling natural resources, and keeping a nuclear arsenal. (Great powers do not have to go shopping for weapons in North Korea.) Even if Putin dies or is removed, the moral stain of the Ukraine war and its many crimes is going to last for generations, and a post-Putin Russia will not get the same benefit of the doubt from the rest of the world the way it did after the Soviet collapse. He's going to leave the country poorer, more hated, and more isolated than at any time since Stalin’s death.”

There is an irony in this. Putin avoided the funeral of Mikhail Gorbachev because he considered the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of its empire as the worst catastrophe of the past century. Yet, here he is compounding the missteps and the crimes that led to that event.

Indeed, the best case for post-Soviet Russia may well be that it becomes relative to China what the former members of the Warsaw Pact were to it, a satellite of a much greater power, at best the junior partner in a relationship with the one like-minded nation that has a chance to gain greater influence in the decades ahead.

For countries like Ukraine—fighting for their continued existence—all of this is secondary, of course. What matters is that they are able to continue their recent victories, that the West provides them with the equipment and financial resources to be able to capitalize on those successes and that in the end they fulfill the promise of Zelensky’s speech and push the invader out of their country. Should they do that, they will be doing the world a great service. And fortunately, they are aided in this not only by the commitments of leaders like President Joe Biden and his counterparts in NATO and the EU, but by the mind-boggling ineptitude of Putin and his army.

As one Ukrainian soldier put it, “We are very lucky that they are so fucking stupid.”

https://t.co/g2kEtLbM4Q

[RKP5637]

1. K&R!!! "As one Ukrainian soldier put it, "We are very lucky that they are so fucking stupid."" n/t

[Traildogbob]

10. We have the same

Enemy attacking our country right here. And they are probably more stupid. How will we respond to our invading extremist GQP? Will we show a hint of the bravery the Ukraine people have????
We will see in November. I hope DOJ has the same bravery as Zelenskyy. And we can take down their leader, in addition to voting out the slime.

[RKP5637]

12. Yes!!! It's so critical. I think the gates are closing for elimination of the slime if it's allowed

to progress much more, like a cancer masticating.

[Traildogbob]

15. I hope you are correct.

I hold on to that hope. I try to find optimism. I have been good at that. Been a Cowboys fan for 50 years. I have held on to optimistic hope the last 25 years, but I think I am giving up on that after last week. Enough!!!!!
The constant Losing and stupid ownership has gotten very old.
I do not ever want that to happen with our democracy. But damn, the loses and constant victories for the opponents of democracy are extremely demoralizing.
I NEED SOME VICTORIES FOR ENDING TRUMPISM. A one point win in triple overtime, anything. Throw us a bone of hope here. Pillow guy phone seizure is not enough. Seize every phone of ALL trumps and Kushner. Even Barron’s!!! Then I can break out the democracy Jersey and cheer a little with pride in OUR team.

[RKP5637]

16. I think in November we'll pretty much have an idea of where it's heading.

So many of these individuals appear to have never had even an elementary course in political history and nations.

[Traildogbob]

20. My biggest concern

Is voting suppression and the case headed to the White Supremes Court that would allow state legislatures to throw out votes and appoint their electors. Thanks North Carolina and McConnell. That would end us.

[RKP5637]

21. Absolutely incredible, and that in many ways signs the end of the United States. The

system should never have allowed SCOTUS to have this much power, but the founding fathers IMO did not entertain some people at that level colluding to overthrow the US government.

[Marcuse]

25. Cowboys won't win until the owner fires the GM.

Dallas needs new management as much as Moscow.

[Traildogbob]

29. 100 percent

I should have said enough when he hosted trump in the owners box at Jerry World. Gotta take my Troy, Emmitt and Irving cards and put em in storage. The team is just a big play toy for the biggest ego in the country, maybe the world.
So, Go…..anybody else. Gonna forget loyalty and become a wagon jumper, and enjoy some winning. Look where Buffalo is, after the two super bowls against the good Dallas Jimmy built. Took em a while but at least their fans have something to cheer.
Jerry will never see another ring. And he never earned the others.

[Marcuse]

35. Room for one more.

[Traildogbob]

50. Cool

And a damn nice wagon.

[Cracklin Charlie]

2. I saw a recent picture of their leader this morning.

I don’t like to say or think it about anyone…but that man is not long for this world. He looks really ill. Like my cousin looked just a few days before he died.

He was at some meeting that he traveled to with 12 doctors.

Hang on, ya’ll…this could be a bumpy ride!

[Native]

30. I completely missed this! Can u share a link please?

[Cracklin Charlie]

51. I do not really know how, but let me see if I can find it.

Not so good with the linky-link stuff.

Maybe you can find it somehow.

[RKP5637]

3. In many ways IMO Putin and Trump are similar, a couple of con artists scamming their

respective country for all they can get and with delusional behavior even when all facts are against them, combined with mammoth and unproductive corrupt egos.

[Pantagruel]

4. "We are very lucky that they are so fucking stupid."

Drunk more likely.

[RKP5637]

6. LOL, Yeah!!!!! most likely! Phew, if I were going/forced into a stupid war like that for Putin

I would be likely to do the same.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

44. From my experience "training" with Russian servicemen in the 90's,

that would be a correct statement, either drunk or high.

[ShazamIam]

5. I think Russia can trade its energy to China for political power, but then how can Russia prevent

China from simply taking what it needs/wants?

[yaesu]

27. I think there will be a time in the not so distant future that we will treat china like we are

treating russia. American businesses & the US consumer best wean themselves off the china economy asap.

[ananda]

7. Putin and the oligarchs siphoned off all the money..

and left the military to languish.

[rubbersole]

9. Not only left the military to languish-

Left the needs of the whole country and its people to languish. But the yachts sure is purddy...

[ananda]

24. Exactly.

...

[brush]

8. If/when Ukraine wins there will be a wholesale housecleaning...

at the Kremlin, starting with Putin. Come to think of it, even if the war finally ends in a prolonged stalemate and negotiated settlement, there will still be a housecleaning...and Putin will be lucky if he's granted a dacha in the country to live out his miserable life.

[Irish_Dem]

45. As long as Putin is alive, he will be a threat to Russia and the world.

There must be a big effort to find his hidden fortune.

He will most likely leave a lot of money to his followers to stir up trouble.
Putin would love to be a bully from the grave.

[brush]

46. I was being charitable in saying he'll be lucky to get a dacha...

Last edited Wed Sep 14, 2022, 06:56 PM - Edit history (1)

after he made a stupendously bad decision to invade Ukraine. Once the war is over I don't think he'll come out of this mess alive.

Hell, it's going so bad now for the Russian army, he might not survive the war.

[Irish_Dem]

47. Yes good.

Putin being at a dacha is going to be ten times worse that Trump at MAL.

The more Putin levels Ukraine, the more I wish Zelensky would march his troops straight to the Kremlin.

[lees1975]

11. And what does the fact that they are that stupid say

about American Republicans who are trying to engage their assistance to win elections in this country?

[Joinfortmill]

13. God Bless Ukraine. Fuck Putin. Hope the Russian people finally get someone decent to run the place.

[getagrip_already]

14. not just stupid...

They are also arrogant and corrupt. That is a fatal combination.

There is a report that one of the reasons they left so much heavy equipment behind during the counter attacks is that local commanders sold off a lot of the fuel they had on hand.

Tanks and ifv's are fuel hungry beasts. They don't need a lot just to keep batteries charged, but if you want to make a run for it, you need a lot of fuel.

[CaptainTruth]

17. I blame a lot of it on corruption.

From what I've seen, a lot of the money that was allocated to maintain military equipment went into various pockets, & equipment was not maintained. It may be the same for troop training.

That has hurt Russia terribly in terms of military readiness & capability.

[Grins]

18. Politely leaving out...

“… fortunately, (Ukraine is) aided in this…by the commitments of…Joe Biden and his counterparts in NATO and the EU…”

Politely leaving out those who didn’t give a damn what happened to Ukraine and actively worked against them and for RUSSIA - TRUMP, Fox News (particularly Tucker Carlson), the Reich-wing media propaganda factory, and the REPUBLICAN PARTY!

[TheBlackAdder]

19. After Putin is gone, the missteps of Germany's WWI Reparations & Sanctions cannot be repeated.

[erronis]

31. You are absolutely right. We can't force Russia into poverty and hopelessness.

That will just bring about another cycle such as gave rise to the Third Reich.

I'm hoping that the dismal sciences (economics, politics, intelligence) have learned a lot about what works and what doesn't. Lord knows there have been enough papers written, awards and degrees given for these studies.

[PortTack]

33. The deep seated corruption going on for decades leaves much of the Russian ppl living in absolute

Poverty and has nothing to do with the current sanctions. When you have nothing…nothing can be taken away. Many of them don’t know anything but poverty. The hopelessness and poverty are built in.

[The_Casual_Observer]

22. They will end up being boxed in by new NATO countries.

[edbermac]

23. I think Pootie will become ill and be hospitalized.

And one night he’ll sleepwalk and fall out a window.

[dvduval]

26. China

After the fall of the Soviet union, many Chinese went to places like Moscow to set up businesses. I expect Russia we'll see a new wave of Chinese people going to Moscow. With everything in shambles, it will be great opportunity for them to buy things really cheap, and get a foothold on the market. It'll be like 1991 all over again.

[Native]

28. "Great powers do not have to go shopping for weapons in North Korea." This says it all.

[hunter]

32. Europe will pretend everything is fine and start importing huge amounts of Russian gas again.

And so the world will burn.

[PortTack]

34. Not so sure about that. Denmark and 3 other countries are radically rethinking wind

With the goal of no Russian fossil fuel imports.

https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/eu-offshore-wind-north-sea

[hunter]

40. Wind turbines REQUIRE gas "backup" power to be economically viable.

Otherwise what do you do when the wind isn't blowing?

No, batteries don't solve this problem. The idea that batteries could be installed at the scale required is completely ludicrous.

Hybrid solar/wind/gas power systems will only prolong our dependence on natural gas. They typically reduce total gas use no more than 50% at best.

What matter if we burn catastrophic climate changing amounts of gas in ten years or twenty?

The intelligent thing to do is leave all that gas in the ground.

[Celerity]

36. ...

[Marcuse]

37. Without Putin the oligarchs will be unleashed. Will they cooperate or compete?

[Irish_Dem]

43. They are being murdered as we speak.

They should start thinking about saving their own skins instead of being billionaires.

[moondust]

38. Annexed by China.

For the oil and gas.

[Irish_Dem]

42. Yes Russia will be China's lower status side kick.

Russia will owe China, and China always collects.

[roamer65]

49. East of Urals will become Chinese occupied or aligned.

West of the Urals eventually it will become a reformed, democratic nation wanting EU membership.

[milestogo]

39. What happened to Trump when he lost?

Still kicking and screaming 2 years later.

[LiberalFighter]

41. Hopefully Russia gets gerrymandered out of existence.

[Mysterian]

48. Putin will flee before being deposed and thrown out of a window

Where to is anyone's guess.

After that, maybe a military junta. Hopefully, they give democracy another chance.

[Pluvious]

52. He's like the richest man in the world - we'll see if that helps heh nt.