At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame?

[brooklynite]

New York Times

In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolest professors.

But last spring, as the campus emerged from pandemic restrictions, 82 of his 350 students signed a petition against him.

Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test scores.

The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.

When I taught at NYU, I was told not to give a grade of B- or lower without being prepared to explain why to the student and parents.

[redstatebluegirl]

1. I wish this did not sound right but it does.

Many of these students, blow off class, lab and study sessions. Show up to class still drunk from the night before.. They expect A grades with no effort. Then you get to deal with helicopter parents who think their baby is going to med school and will call the organic professor and tell them it is their fault little Johnny is failing.

I cannot wait until my husband and others I love retire from the mess that is higher ed today.

[getagrip_already]

2. For me, it was p-chem, not organic....

I was a chemical engineering major at a well known, tough school. Physical chemistry was a required, core course (you couldn't graduate without passing it).

The class was taught by a foreign born instructor. It was his first year teaching the class. On the first exam, the mean was 18%, and he didn't scale. By the middle of the term a full 50% of the class was failing. His TA was the only one doing well, and he was helping to prepare the syllabus and exams.

We ended with a new instructor and scaled grading. P-chem was tough enough without a narcissist in charge.

[ProfessorGAC]

6. My PhD Is In Physical Organic Chemistry

So, I had lots of both.
Organic mechanisms came pretty easy to me. Not sure why. I could just see it.
PChem was a little more effort, but not nuts.
Quantum chemistry was tough in the beginning until everything kind of clicked. Then, it seemed pretty straightforward.

[Poiuyt]

29. I found that the more advanced chemistry courses were easier than freshman chem

because you learned why things were happening. Once you start pushing electrons around, everything becomes clear.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. I Can See That

Undergrad is the what & a bit of how. Early grad courses are detailed how & some why.
The 600 classes are almost all the why.
I'd agree with your assessment.

[Demsrule86]

8. I had an awful experience in P-chem. I was a good student and graduated with honors.

When I hit P-chem, the other students had found the answers to the tests...the old professor gave the same test every year. He was a brilliant guy and a great teacher. Well, I wasn't going to cheat...first of all, it is wrong. And secondly, you get tossed out of school...I was a senior. So I was struggling-there was no curve at all. I was earning low Cs. Well the shit hit the fan, and the cheaters were caught. Everyone was called into the Dean's office. When my turn came. He yelled at me and said, 'just admit it, you were cheating.' That pissed me off I said 'I have a D average in the class. If I was cheating it would be much higher'. Anyway, the cheaters were kicked out of school and it was decided that the final and a paper would count as the entire grade for the rest of us. I end up getting an A in the class. But, it was a horrible experience.

[Dorian Gray]

43. You did the right thing

and were highly rewarded for it. Good job.

[Johnny2X2X]

9. I've seen, "I survived P Chem" bumper stickers.

Organic was a weeder class at my Big Ten Univs, it was brutal. I remember my first mid term the average score was less than 30%, the high score was a 59. The prof acknowledged it was too tough and gave us chances to have that grade diminished in the figuring of final grades, but after that exam, a lot of people dropped the class. I got a 19 on that exam and still found a way to be a B- in the class.

I decided to switch out of chemical engineering after Organic 2 to getting a manufacturing/industrial engineering degree.

Went back for my Masters several years back, college has changed now, it's a little more practical and less theory than it used to be. Basically acknowledging that the internet exists to help solve all sorts of problems, so teaching people to understand the deeper concepts.

[Demsrule86]

35. I once got a job that I was not really qualified for because they saw P-Chem on my transcript.

[Poiuyt]

28. I still have my P-chem textbook -- when I look at that book, I have

no idea how the hell I passed that course. Organic was easy for me. That was my niche.

[Disaffected]

37. Speaking of foreign born instructors,

my first year engineering calculus class was taught by a Japanese math PhD who spoke poor English to say the least. And the math test scores in the class reflected that (he was a poor teacher to boot - blew past stuff at v quick pace, actually writing on the blackboard with his right hand and simultaneously wiping the board with his left). Some of his word pronunciations added to it - eg. "factorial" was pronounced "fuk-tor-ee-al".

Anyhow, practically no-one passed the exams and many had percentages in the 0 to 10 range. Eventually he decided to double everyone's score to redress the situation which caused us a lot of mirth as 0 to 10 times two is still a dismal grade. Personally, I just gave up half-way through and used the time to concentrate on other courses. I self taught a lot of the material during summer recess (finding it wasn't all that mysterious after all) and retook the course in 2nd year.

Ah, fond memories.....

[lindysalsagal]

3. They're not higher education any more: they're DegreesRUs.

You pay: You get.

It's a business. Students are "clients".

[brooklynite]

4. Especially the foreign students who generally pay full tuition.

[dalton99a]

14. It is a competitive sport for some foreign students to lie and cheat - proudly and shamelessly

In certain countries, most notably India, parents expect their children to cheat in school.

[Happy Hoosier]

22. That's a bit insulting to a lot of professors...

My wife is a college professor... I wouldn't say she brutally grades, but if a student gets an "A" in her class, they earned it.

Yes, you'll see that attitude among many administrators, but not, in my experience, professional professors.

[eppur_se_muova]

26. It applies to the adminisration, not the professors. I've had my grades "modified" against my wishes

to please the Dean, so that students with a 20% average could get a C in Organic and thus go on to take Biochem, without a firm grasp of the chemical principles. This was a state school, of course, where the admins must respond to parental complaints -- no matter how groundless or ill-considered -- or face inquiries from their Congresscritters. Parents almost *always* assume it is the instructor's fault, especially if they are pushing their kids into a premed major. How dare you complicate their plans! Seldom does anyone ask the instructor a particular student's performance. In most cases the response would be simply to point out the large number of students who are doing better than the complainer. I've gotten a long email screed from a student telling me I wasn't teaching the course right when two-thirds of the class were outperforming him -- with test scores as high as 3-4 x what he was getting.

I've also been forced to give spoon-feeding "extra credit" assignments to compensate for poor test scores, the same semester I was criticized for giving slightly lower scores than another instructor. I continued to grade by my own standards, and ended up with higher overall scores than the other section -- so then the Chair lowered my scores to match. Ignorant meddling.

One of my teaching positions -- the only one from which I quit -- forbade instructors from failing more than 20% of the class, as a College-wide policy. And they had the most unprepared students I've ever seen.

Administrations definitely keep their eyes on the bottom line, and the bottom line is enrollment = tuition fees. WVU actually advertises in NJ to draw students who couldn't get in to Rutgers, or who didn't do well there -- the underlying message is "it's not as hard here,so come, pay your tuition here and get easier grades".

Selective schools already get far more applicants than they can admit, so they can hold the line better against grade inflation. State schools are at the mercy of the parents of the students at the bottom end of the grade curve, and their elected representatives.

[lindysalsagal]

30. Well said. Plus, many colleges keep the majority of faculty on "part-time', or "adjunct" so they

never get any tenure protections. They have to fudge the grades just to keep the couple of courses they're paid to teach.

[Happy Hoosier]

36. Thanks for the clarification. NT

[NickB79]

5. If his class standards didn't drastically change, suck it up kids

I don't want doctors who weren't challenged in college. That's the entire point of college; winnow the chaff from the grain, so to speak.

[dalton99a]

13. +1. You don't want a doctor or pharmacist who doesn't understand organic chemistry

It is an important weedout course

[lindysalsagal]

32. Yes, it is. And yes, we all depend on the adequate training and preparation of scientists: From

surgeons to lab directors to bridge builders to chemists: We want things done right. Covid might someday turn out to be the result of bad lab administration. If not, who's to say that couldn't happen?

[marble falls]

7. Average is the lowest common denominater. Lowering standards in Medicine seems like a malpractice.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

10. The writing on this is so weird. It really sets up the students as the unreasonable ones and

then at the very end it says NYU determined his teaching wasn't up to its standards and he routinely got terrible reviews from both students and colleagues. Sometimes jobs don't work out; it happens.

ETA: Like, the fourth paragraph could have been:

The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans determined those standards didn't meet the university's, and terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.

Much more fun to make the kids look like the problem, though, and add a huge dollop of AcAdEmIc FrEeDoM scare stuff too.

[dsc]

17. He was teaching there since 2006

I find it beyond hard to believe that he was getting the worst evaluations as a year to year professor for that long without being let go let alone no effort to address it with him. In short, I call BS.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. The article is definitely written in such a way that the blank spots leave canvasses for people to

assume all sorts of thing, so who knows? It's entirely possible the university did try to address it with him, and realized it was easier/better to cut its losses. Or there's other some reason completely unrelated that the wanted to get rid of him for, and this was a convenient way to start it off. Hard to tell from this shitty article!

[Happy Hoosier]

23. Was he pulling in grants?

In some STEM fields, some pretty awful professors are given a pass on teaching because their research is ground-breaking and they pull in grants. Some UNiversities have "research professor" positions that do not require teaching, but many don't.

I was nearly the victim of such a professor. He pulled in BIG reaseaqrch dollars working on magnetic bearings. he wrote a Control Systems textbook that was pretty standard at the grad level. But he was required to teach a 300-level controls course and he clearly HATED it. He lectured... almost no student interaction. He was dismissive and even disdainful of undergrad questions. His exams were insanely hard. I felt pretty lucky because my TA in that class was also his research assistant and he had a really good feel for what the Prof was looking for. He prepped us for the exams reasonably well. But I'd guess a third of the class failed. There were maybe 2 A's in the whole class. I felt fortunate to get a B (thanks TA Mark!).

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. This was his second post-retirement job. All he was doing was teaching.

[dalton99a]

11. Most of the As received in online STEM courses during the pandemic came from online cheating

[Tomconroy]

12. In my college class of 450, 250 declared themselves to be

Premed freshman year. About 10 actually ended up applying to medical school. They all got in.
Even back then Organic Chemistry was the dream slayer. Don't recall anyone whining. No petitions.

[mainer]

15. NYU is a very selective school. These are supposed to be top students

I can't imagine how students in less selective schools are faring with O Chem.

That said, I too found O Chem challenging when I took it decades ago. Quantitative Analysis was far easier.

[leftyladyfrommo]

16. I lucked out. We had to take chemistry and physics

First year at U of U. Classes were huge abd required.

My professors didn't think women could do chemistry and physics so they just gave women an automatic C.
I would have failed both so I was just grateful abdcwe didn't need either one in my major. Thank god.

It was 1967. It was a completely different world for women back then.

[Sympthsical]

18. I have 30 pages of typed notes per exam in microbio

The professor just flings information at you, and you are expected to know it for exams. School's pretty easy for me generally, but I do have to say I am absolutely working for the A I'm going to manage in this class. It is easily 90% of the time I spend on homework.

My classmates are not doing so great. The class average at the moment is 62%, which is yikes.

The man will not be curving.

[leftyladyfrommo]

20. My first chemistry test I got 17%. I think they just

went downhill from there.

[Sympthsical]

24. Our first exam was an unmitigated disaster

I think the median was something like 32%. I got a 62%. However! He curves the first exam (I curved to an 86%) - but only the first exam because, "Now you know what to expect." I've gotten an A on everything since.

It's . . . a lot.

I'm an older student and don't even really remember a lot of my old high school and college biology, so a lot of my STEM courses are just me kind of boot camping myself to get up to speed. So, I probably spend a lot more time on everything than the other students.

I've loved my chemistry courses so far. I've also completely forgotten them within two weeks after the semester ends.

[ProfessorGAC]

39. I Was The Curve Buster In Organic

The entire department was super focused on mechanisms, in all sub-disciplines.
For reasons I can't explain, I just saw mechanisms.
We'd have an exam that was 5 reactions. Then 40 or 50 blank lines. Each correct step was 1 point. If you got stuck, you could work backwards to pile up points. But, all the reactions weren't necessarily possible. So, getting a step wrong was just zero, but if you made up steps past the point that's possible, it was minus 2 points.
So, 201 midterm, the median score was 54%. But, I got a 98.
I should note that there were 90 in that class, but only 3 people got degrees in chemistry, so the vast majority were not chemistry majors. In 202, there were 40 something so half the class chose not to take the 2nd semester

[Sympthsical]

40. Hmm, PhD checks out

Last edited Wed Oct 5, 2022, 09:45 AM - Edit history (1)

I kind of like those tests, though (although granted most people don't). Where you're being asked to use your learned knowledge and logic your way through a problem. I had a major exam yesterday, and we covered a lot of viruses and Covid-related material. One of the essay questions was you had to more or less logic your way through how Remdesivir works against the virus. We were never outright taught this in the material. We were only taught what the drug was.

So you had to sit down, gather up what you know about RNA replication, translation, base pairs, codons, protein chains, etc. from previous classes and material, and apply it to the drug and what we know of how the virus works.

It's almost fun if you're interested in the material. "Ha, lookit the drug bein' all sneaky and thinking it's tRNA!" But if you're looking for a test of, "Did you memorize this and take notes?" it isn't going to be a good time.

Lots of grumbling afterward.

[dsc]

19. Reminds me of the old saw

Student to Professor, why do we have to learn Organic Chemistry?

Answer it saves lives.

Student How does it save lives?

Answer, if you fail organic chemistry you fail don't get into medical school. If you don't get into medical school you don't become a doctor. Organic chemistry saves lives by preventing dummies from being doctors.

[redstatebluegirl]

33. I love this one!

My husband always tells people you don't want a doctor who can't handle Organic, and you don't want an engineer that can't handle Physics.

[GusBob]

41. As a physician myself, I can dispute that crap

I know plenty of straight A students who are shitty providers

Organic chemistry does not teach you how to listen
It does not teach you how to speak with patients
It does not teach you how to care
It does not teach you how to get along with colleagues and staff and other professionals
It does not teach you how to run a business

That takes personal skills and practice and you can’t practice without skills. Some of them are egoists and their patients despise them. They couldn’t even get along with clinical instructors due to the clash of egos

The A students get out in the real world not very well-rounded. Great at books, lousy at people skills, end up in research or education

Med schools now realize this and are looking way beyond your chem grades to find the best applicants

[eppur_se_muova]

27. "notorious for ending many a dream of medical school" at EVERY COLLEGE WHERE IT IS TAUGHT ...

... not just as this one professor taught it.

If you're not smart enough to figure out Organic, you're probably not smart enough to get into Med school. At least that's the theory, though I have problems even with that.

But hey, kill the messenger.

[dalton99a]

34. +1. Med school admissions people often use organic chemistry as a performance predictor

for the first two years of med school.

It is a class that requires volume memorization AND understanding of the material.

You don't want a doctor that got a C in ochem.

[moonshinegnomie]

31. i still remember back when i was getting my electrical engineering degree

had to take a required course on communication theory.
the professor went over what would he said would be on the exam.

I take the exam and the prof lied. what he said would be on teh exam wasnt and instead is was everything else. his response when called out on it was to say we should have studied everything.

I got a 19 on the exam. due to the curve that was a C.

I never udnerstood profs that write exams that are so hard that most of teh class scores under 50 curve or not.

[Dorian Gray]

42. I have a lot to say about this

1) College education is being treated like a service industry type thing and students/their paying parents are the customers. You don't want to make customers unhappy.

2) Why the hell is an 84 year old man, an expert in his subject field, being employed as a GLORIFIED ADJUNCT PROFESSOR? That's problematic on multiple levels, and it is disappointing.

3) Shouldn't pre-med students be challenged and work their asses off? I have a problem with punitive education in some fields, but I would think students who are planning on going into the medical field should be challenged, and those who can't hack it should reconsider their future plans.

4) Pandemic was hard for everybody, and I understand a little kindness. But then... point 3.

5) This man should have retired as a celebrated expert in his field years earlier.

6) Colleges moving away from tenured professors to essentially adjunct only teachers is a SYSTEMIC PROBLEM, cheapening the degree.

Do I have other points???? Probably.

(This story was fascinating, though.)