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[Heather MC]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Heather MC) on Thu Oct 13, 2022, 11:06 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Abolishinist]

1. I'm pretty sure those who profer this utterance

Last edited Wed Oct 5, 2022, 01:24 AM - Edit history (1)

would not actually go through with it.

[Heather MC]

2. I don't understand your comment, could you explain please and thank you

Respect

[Abolishinist]

11. There's nowhere to even start with this.

"You can't cuss anymore you have to use code words."

Really? And what is YOUR definition of a 'cuss word'?


"You can't Speak what's really in your heart, if it goes against the public discourse."

Really again? One can't speak what's really in their heart?


"When did freedom become just forcing people to say pleasant things, or keep it to yourself?"

Really again to the 3rd power? So far off the charts I have NO idea what you're talking about. Pleasant things?

[BlackSkimmer]

13. I know, I see plenty of cussing here lol. I do it myself from time to time, though I'm not that much

of a cusser in general.

[Heather MC]

33. Yesterday I was called an Asshole, but they didn't spell it out they had to use code

To which I responded, if you're going to call me an Asshole, use the actual word. Not A$$H○le. lol

[BlackSkimmer]

42. Well, they shouldn't have done that at any rate.

[haele]

44. A$$-variants should only be used for jerks with money.

Otherwise, it totally misses the mark when applied to us plebes.

I can't use my money to be an Asshole! But I am a star, so feel free to call me an A**hole.

Just don't call me late to work.

Haele

[Heather MC]

45. Lol

The a-hole in me, was going to say "hello I'm calling you you're late for work"🤣🤣🤣

[egduj]

3. Free Speech is a constitutional right.

Not a discussion board right.

[niyad]

25. And, as we seem to need to keep reminding people, 1A Free Speech refers to

the government, no other entities.

[SergeStorms]

4. When that "free speech"...

is nothing but blatant lies and veiled threats there's not much to defend.

If someone wants to hang a "free speech" flag on that decayed pole, don't be surprised when the only people who are defending it are just as morally bankrupt as the person who hung that flag there in the first place.

If you're talking about truth, factual opinions, or a person's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then I agree with that old adage 100%.

Just my opinion.

[Heather MC]

36. Speech that leads to violence, is not what I'm speaking about

I think after January 6th, and we saw what a call to violence could do. We thought maybe it's best we don't demonstrate anger because it could lead to that.

We are not like those people, Hopefully we can have a friendly disagreement, And either we come to a consensus, or we don't

But at the very least we can always end with a kind wave or A

[Stargleamer]

83. So you are saying that speech that causes harm

such as speech that incites violence, "isn't what you are talking about". Then I think you should realize that others find certain acts of speech to cause objectionable harm, such as hate speech, and you just differ because you don't. If you see a parent berating their child for something trivial, so much so that the child is crying, you wouldn't maybe say "oh well, I'll defend their right to hurt their child like that, since its just speech". If so, you should recognize that you differ from others who object to speech that they feel causes harm, only to the extent that you disagree with them that it causes sufficiently significant harm. Which is a position I urge you to re-assess, and consider that those opposing the speech you are fine with might be right, and that such speech does cause intolerable harms. I suggest listening in depth to others who have been hurt by disparaging comments and don't just say to others "well, I wouldn't have been hurt by such words"--we're all different and you should acknowledge and honor our diversity and recognize that some people are more vulnerable than others. People should never have to be just like us to be accorded equal respect.

[Srkdqltr]

5. You can say what you want , but than I can too.

If you have the perfect right to cuss or say what you want. And I can say you are a horses a** and not like what you say. So if you want to say nasty things be prepared for pushback. You are free.

[Heather MC]

37. May I ask why did you interpret my words to mean I would insult you in some way?

Is that what free speech means to you? It means that somebody might want to call you a horse's ass?
I just mean sometimes you need to shout FUCK!

But it doesn't need to be directed at anyone specifically it can just be A Shout to release a frustration
Because and I think we can both agree on this dear friend who is not a horse's a** lol
This world sometimes you need it need a release of frustration. Sometimes you need a place to say this makes me angry and here is why.

And yes you are free to say I don't agree with your anger. And you could also choose to say but I understand your need to shout about it go ahead.

[Srkdqltr]

39. I'm saying a person has the right to say whatever, and another person has the right to disagree.

Neither person has to like it.
A person can lie, a person can correct that lie neither has to like it.

That's how freedom works.

If freedom is the goal a person has to be ready to hear things they don't like.

Freedom doesn't mean only what you freely think is going to go over well with other people.

Did that clear up my point? Sorry for the use of You, I didn't mean You personally just responding to the post.

[Heather MC]

40. Thank you for the clarification

Whenever my husband and I have a disagreement or I guess some might say an argument lol depending on prospective right
We always have rules on how we argue with each other
1. We don't show disrespect we don't curse each other out.
2. We can cuss, We Choose not to say things like "you're a…"
3. we still say things like "please" and "thank you" even in the midst of the argument
4. the goal is always resolution.
5. most importantly each one of us must be free to speak 100% truth to the other.


I believe the real challenge with the way we communicate as a Society, is that we have forgotten the proper rules or we never knew them, of how to argue and have a healthy disagreement.
Maybe everybody should have to have debate club you know, to learn how to argue and to get the proper rules for arguing.
And maybe then the words FREE SPEECH will no longer have such a negative connotation.

you know what I mean?
Hope you're having a great day

[MyMission]

6. The moral minority is on a mission

Fuck them!

I agree, I love that expression and sentiment too. The one you shared.
But I think about their fight against political correctness, how they said they should be able to say Merry Christmas instead of happy holidays, and now they want everyone to say merry christmas.
They want to declare this a christian country, with their (hypocritical) christian "values".

Christofascists!
Fuck them.

[Heather MC]

38. Those people, have not been taught how to be properly angry and release it in a healthy way

They've been taught to get mad, and then get mad or, and then get madder still

Look at the media they consume they started by telling people to get angry at a tan suit that a black man wore. Then they told him to hate a woman for her emails they turned out to be a lie.
And now they're just belligerently screaming lock him up as it relates to Joe Biden with absolutely no clear reason as to why.

I'm not speaking about those people, I'm just talking about conversation.

And having a safe space to say this makes me angry and here is why.

Without people being afraid that tomorrow I'm going to storm the Capitol
Do you understand me now? If not feel free to ask me more questions. I hope you're enjoying this conversation

💜

[niyad]

7. Could you cite some specific examples, particularly about forcing people

to say pleasant things? I have seen nothing such as you describe.

[BlackSkimmer]

15. Nobody has forced me to say "Merry Christmas" either. I say whatever I like depending on the

situation usually.

[Celerity]

17. Banksy, in 2004, made a definitive statement to the 'you WILL say Merry Christmas' crowd

Christ With Shopping Bags, 2004

https://banksyexplained.com/christ-with-shopping-bags-2004/

Christ with Shopping Bags, 2004
Edition: 82 signed

Christ with Shopping Bags, also known as CWSB, portrays the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, yet Banksy has removed the structure of the cross from the iconic scene. Jesus Christ is holding shopping bags, carefully wrapped with fluorescent pink ribbons, and seeping with black blood. The viewer can glimpse Christmas presents such as candy cane and Mickey Mouse. The image is undoubtedly meant as a satire on modern commercialism, pointing a finger at the hypocrisy of modern celebration.

[niyad]

27. Thank you. Never saw that one.

[niyad]

26. Depending on my mood, and the day, I say, "Happy holidays", "seasons'

greetings", "Blessed Solstice", etc.

[BlackSkimmer]

29. Yes, and none of those would offend me in the least.

Nor would "Merry Christmas" - I just take things like that in the spirit they're given.

[Heather MC]

32. We should celebrate Christmas the way the pagans did it

With a group orgy like the good old days lol

[Heather MC]

22. It's in the "terms and conditions" don't you know!

At least that's what I was told
What do you think?

[niyad]

24. "so I've been told"??? In other words, your OP is about something you have

never read??? Got it.

[BlackSkimmer]

30. Lol, good catch. nt

[Heather MC]

31. Why are you so upset with me?

Have I wronged you in some way that I'm unaware of?

[Heather MC]

35. Actually I was referring to a poster below Who said the exact thing.

Good catch though, you are quite intelligent are you not?

[Spazito]

8. DU is privately owned and has Terms of Service that we all agree to...

and when we post OPs that juries decide violate the TOS, the OPs get removed. It's as simple as that.

[BlackSkimmer]

14. Ah, this explains a lot.

I must have missed it though.

[Heather MC]

21. "terms and conditions" terms and conditions" terms and conditions" terms and conditions

Don't you love all the legal jargon.

[Hekate]

67. I love DU for being overall more civil than any place else on the internet. You signed the TOS...

It’s a social contract. Do you now regret it? Is that why you seem to be so confrontational these past days? Because, forgive me for saying so, you seem to be trying to bait people and it’s not clear why.

[Heather MC]

69. I have no motive, If people are being "baited" by something I said, that's a choice they're making.

It's a shame that people come to me confrontational and that's not my intention. that's just what they think.
And then they decide to approach me from their own misguided perceptions without at least asking for clarity 1st From me. #NotYou!

I'm perfectly willing to explain myself. I've had wonderful conversations with many people, even o. this thread. they didn't seem "baited"

I have no reason to forgive you, you've done nothing wrong you're merely speaking your truth and I appreciate it

I hope I received the same appreciation from you, When I speak my truth. Even if you don't agree with it.

thank you
💜

I am curious you say lately my post have been a certain way? Never seem to find specific people how many of my posts have you read? And how are you able to find me I'm just curious?

I spoke with another person named "blue spot" who always seems to find my post. They said it just random it just happens.

And now you speak as if you read things that I've posted often. How do you find me? I can never seem to find anyone on here it seems so eclectic, It would be nearly impossible to just read one specific person's post isn't it?

[BlackSkimmer]

70. You're a star member and have been here since 2008? Yet you don't know the search function?

I use it primarily when I haven't seen posters I like for some time. I worry they've disappeared, but usually find out I just haven't seen their posts.

If you click on a person's profile, it will tell you the last post that person made. And as a star member, you can use advanced search, if so inclined, and search any poster's posts back for some time. Really easy.

[Heather MC]

71. I've been a member since 2008, I only pop in now and then, 2009 I started using Facebook and

Was spending most of my free time there.
Also I never made any connections with people here where I would want to find out if they're online or made a post or not.

Thanks for letting me know there is a way to specifically find people it was getting kind of weird like how's that happening lol

🥂

[Hekate]

73. I don't need to hunt for you; if you reply to me the "My Posts" tab lights up

As for knowing what you are saying these days, all I need to do is read one of your OPs and the thread that follows. I’ve now read several — you’ve been busy. You’ve had 3 hides, which I had nothing to do with — but it is public info on your Profile tab.

Pro tip: if you don’t want people to think you’re baiting them — don’t bait them.

[BlackSkimmer]

74. Thank you.

This.

[Heather MC]

75. Weird, I didn't look you up🤔

🤷🏾‍♀️

[Hekate]

76. Any time

[BlackSkimmer]

77. Lol.

This is nearing hall buzzard territory.

[Hekate]

80. Srsly

….with passive-aggressive blue hearts

[BlueSpot]

9. What happened today?

It just seems that there might be something more here.

[Heather MC]

20. Hey blue spot, I see you how is it that you tend to find my post

Last edited Wed Oct 5, 2022, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm just curious because I've never read anything that you've posted originally. And there's presumably thousands of people on DU posting every 2 seconds. How do you always find me?

To Answer your question nothing happened, When I speak I share my heart I told you guys the story about my 911 day I was just sharing my heart. I could share my sadness if I had any, I don't carry sadness in my heart I deal with it. So is it OK if I share my anger it's not like I'm trying to get anyone to storm a United States capitol or anything. lol is it too soon to laugh about that, I don't know.

I'm curious though, how do you keep finding me?

[BlueSpot]

47. Sorry, didn't mean to offend

I promise I am not targeting you! I don't post often and mostly read. If I am "finding you" it is probably because you create thread titles that pique my interest.

No offense meant, honestly.

[Heather MC]

49. 💜💜💜 No problem my friend, I was just curious, because I can never find anybody

I thought you were using some type of search features.

The fact that you just randomly are stumbling into my post is pretty cool
Nice to greet you, hope to see you around
💜

[Laura PourMeADrink]

65. Wonder the same thing sometime. Is there an

Alert when someone posts that all of us don't know about?

[Heather MC]

66. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Some big secret lover you have to post like over 300000 post before you get The privilege of using it

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. Don't think sanctioned, but it IS a thing, I feel sure ! No way

could you follow someone around, and pounce on comments within seconds without it. How would you even know where the person was posting?

[BlackSkimmer]

79. I have to ask you the same thing I asked the OP.

How can you be a member since 2004 and not be aware of the search function on DU? DU has many very cool features that I think many are unaware of.

Over the years I've been a member, I'll suddenly notice I've not seen a favorite posting, and that's when I'll click on their profile. Usually, I've just missed them here and there, but sometimes I learn they're gone, for whatever reason.

Yes, I suppose this could be used for stalking purposes...but that seems silly really. Life is much too short.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

81. DU search feature, of course. But instant message/ notification when

a particular user posts, no I am not aware of that. If it's a thing, please tell ALL how to activate. Albeit have no one.

[BlackSkimmer]

78. I posted this previously in this thread.

All you have to do is click on a person's profile, and you can see the last time they posted.

If you're a star member, you can do an advanced search and read posts from way back.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

82. We know that thanks! Talking about an instant notice

When a particular person posts.

[StormKing]

12. Mmmm they never mean it

It's always about being held responsible for something reprehensible. I always hear it from Libertarians. Republicans? Not anymore.

[Heather MC]

19. Those people have bastardized the term "free speech"

Last edited Wed Oct 5, 2022, 02:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Because they want to use their speech to control the masses, and then quell the masses once they get in power.

I'm just talking about having the freedom, to say when you're mad about something in what's supposed to be a safe space.

And if somebody says something you disagree with, Freely explain "Hey I disagree with you because…"

We're being stuffed into these divisions, Red States blue States, Democrat Republican,
Whites blacks, We're all just humans, on one rock, hurling through space together trapped here,
On a planet we are all actively killing just with our existence. Maybe if we allow each other to speak and shout our truths we can finally get to a point where we say you know what it's all good thanks for letting me talk come on let's figure out how to save our lives together and then we'll get back in the fight lol.

We can't do that anymore because we saw a bunch of crazy people storm the Capitol, And now we're like your free speeches is OK as long as it spoken in a certain way.

And what do we have all over the Internet moderators, administrators, Making sure we don't get too "agitated with our words"

I think you hear me, do you understand what I'm saying. if not please let's discuss it. I would love that

[niyad]

23. "masterised"??? And "quell", not "quail".

[JHB]

28. Quailing the populace

[Heather MC]

55. I'm glad I made you feel better about yourself.

🤷🏾‍♀️

[Heather MC]

54. I was talk typing this morning While getting ready for work. I fix it relax

[Conjuay]

16. Mamma

always said don’t be rude (threateningly)

That falls into the “say pleasant things “category

[Heather MC]

18. Your mother is a wise woman

However what happens if you need to be rude? What happens if you say "excuse me" and the person doesn't respond to move. What if you say "please may I pass"?

And the person just stands there in your way like you don't exist like you don't matter.
At what point do you have to get loud and speak up and maybe even say "b**** move"

Why do we have this emotion in this called anger? However were told not to use it maybe if we're taught how to properly use our anger then we learn to control it as we get older.

When my children would it would get you upset, I would say it's OK to be upset, Take your time feel it and learn to let it go learn to live with it and learn to allow it to prepare you to be a Passion.

Pleasant things are appropriate in certain settings. So was getting mad, And sometimes in anger that's when some people feel safe enough to finally speak the truth. Because when you tell someone "say pleasant things" That person grows up possibly struggling struggling to speak up for themselves.

I teach yoga and I have a moment in my Practices will I tell my students I want you to swush as loud as you can 4 times and don't let 4 times and on that last time really raise your voice and shout.

I could probably count on one hand the number of times I had a student that actually followed instructions and shouted.

Why are we so afraid to shout even when we feel good about something question

Get loud taking a nice deep breath annnnnnnnddff. SWOOOOOOSH WOOOOOOOO

try it 4 times it feels good to shout
💜

[Srkdqltr]

41. Because we have free speech we have the freedom to be nasty or nice.

If a person chooses the freedom of calling names or cussing another person has the freedom to choose to respond in some way. Cussing back, walking away, or what ever way another person chooses.
How a person speaks and /or responses tells alot about that person. Freedom of speech ....

[BlackSkimmer]

43. Good post.

Very true.

[Heather MC]

46. You know when that statement was made "I will defend to the death your right to say it"

I believe in a lot of ways we have been right robbed of that Passion to speak freely.

We've become so polarized, and so seemingly divided although I don't believe that we truly are.

That the words "free speech" have almost become a bad thing to ask for.

I watched the courtroom video once this was years ago I will try to find it
There was a black man in handcuffs and he was speaking his truth to the judge. And He was loud but his physical body was not in any way threatening.

And he began to be slowly surrounded by about 5 bailiffs that were fully armed. And they started slow Walking towards him, they're their hands on their holster guns. Ready to shoot a man that was in handcuffs and all he had to fight with was his voice.

And the police officers were ready to shoot him just for talking.

And he was accused of being disrespectful by the judge. But what that man was saying was that no one was listening to him. And so he had to shout to be heard and that was all he had left was his voice.

And even that they were willing to kill him to take that from him.

That's what I mean when I say we don't have free speech anymore.
What we're missing isn't necessarily free speech because yes you can say whatever you want, but you cannot speak truth.


The authorities, are allowed to murder us when we do that.
And Many of us have been indoctrinated to say, "they should have complied", "they should have kept their mouth shut", "they shouldn't have been so disrespectful"

Why is authority so afraid, a FREE TRUTH when it's spoken?

[Caliman73]

52. I think that this is a different issue that you are bringing up.

Related, but different. I understand that you said "authority is afraid of a Free Truth..." and I don't know what exactly you mean by that.

In the courtroom, with the Black man, that wasn't as much about "free speech" it was about racism and control. Black bodies, especially men, are often automatically seen as dangerous. That is racism. A White man in a similar situation may eventually be escorted from the courtroom, but likely not at gun point and not by a large number of activated law enforcement officers.

I have seen unarmed Black men elicit police responses that armed and agitated White men do not.

Secondly, in court, it is about procedure and order. That is why when things start to get a bit loud, the judge will bang the gavel and say, "order in the court". They remove people who are wearing hats or who have cell phone, etc... I have seen people who are trying to communicate with detained people using signs or just gestures, be asked to leave the court room. There will be order in the court and the judge is in charge. Viscerally, I would agree with you that they should let the man speak, but if he was in a court proceeding and had his attorney present, then technically, he had his chance to speak and trying to address the judge after the fact, is a breach and many judges take those breaches seriously.

[Towlie]

48. "You can't cuss anymore you have to use code words"? No, I see a trend in the opposite direction.

 
←

The trend I see is that words that used to be taboo have gradually become more acceptable over the decades. When I was young words like hell and damn were forbidden on TV and replaced with heck and darn, while today hell and damn are accepted in virtually all media while heck and darn sound odd.

And by the way, people who express shock and disapproval when hearing or reading certain words actually perform a service to the rest of us by helping to maintain the value of those words as a means of expressing strong feelings.

[Caliman73]

50. First, you need to define what you mean by "Free Speech"...

People often conflate "free speech" with the ability to say whatever you want without consequence.

Free Speech has several meanings including in a legal sense, which is that the government cannot punish you for criticizing it. Even that has limits. If you incite rebellion against said government, incite violence against other people, including government officials, then you are liable for criminal charges. Defamation, libel, and slander are also actionable.

Are you saying that none of what I mentioned above should be off limits?

If we are talking about the freedom to say things in the public discourse, the "speak what is really in your heart" thing, again, are you saying that people should be allowed to say whatever they want with no reaction? How would you enforce that?

There have ALWAYS been limits to what people can and cannot say, in both legal and social terms. I think that some of the problem that people are having is that as women and minorities assert themselves and it becomes less socially acceptable to say sexist, homophobic, racially charged, and generally offensive things about others, people are feeling like their options are decreasing. That is likely true. Things we said and thought in my youth in the 1970's are no longer acceptable in society, so we changed and at least I no longer say or think those things. They may still be in my brain, but if they come up, I remember why it is not okay to say it anymore. Like making fun of other boys by comparing them to girls, why would that be offensive? Unless there is something inherently wrong with girls, or black people, or ...

Instead of the idea of "forcing" maybe think about why you need to say what you are saying. What are you trying to communicate by using certain terms and phrases? If I say, "You hit like a girl", that is an attempt to insult someone. Why? By comparing their actions to that of a "girl", what is the implication of the insult? As I said earlier, the context and the vehicle which you are using to make the insult says something about what you are thinking about not only the object of your insult, but the class of people you are using as the insult.

Personally, I think people curse more now than they did in the past. I know I certainly do. Because I do, my kids have heard more curse words than I did growing up and while they don't curse in front of me, I am sure they do with their friends. It is about the context and the company when it comes to cursing. We don't curse in the library, or a fancy party, but if we are on a roller coaster at the amusement park and my kid says, "Oh shit", I am not going to excoriate them. Also, at the time and place where I was growing up, if you cursed at someone it was because the next thing your were going to do was hit them.

Here is another quote to end my response, "If you stop defending your argument and start complaining about your right to have that argument, then there is a major problem with your argument".

[Heather MC]

51. Thank you for taking the time to write this out I appreciate it.

With all due respect I intentionally left the question's vague because I wanted to know what others thought. Before I explained myself. And I appreciate everything that you wrote down but I would like to ask you again what does free speech mean to you You gave me several options and definitions and I read all of them and of them and I agreed with all of them. What does it mean to you?


And I share your sentiment with children cursing I used to tell my children "you're going to hear bad words just don't repeat them especially not in front of the grandmother's respectt the grandmother's respect thank you.

When my oldest was 15 he went away for the week with some friends and when he came back he was playing his video games and I was hearing nothing but curse words coming from his room like he was mad at the yelling at the game. And I just opened his bedroom door and I looked at him and then I closed the door I didn't say anything. I called the mother that was on the beech trip that week. And her name was Heather as well, I said Heather who is this little belligerent young man that you've brought back into my home? Lol

And she said "Heather I tried they were doing this all week long I am so sorry" I said " it's OK it's the new normal now I guess lol"

So I knocked on my son's door, I went back into his room and I said, Do me this one favor, Never ever direct a curse word at me I don't care if you use words come just don't curse me with them. And be mindful of when you're in school and in places where it's not safe to use those words OK.

I love having an authentic relationship with my children.
Our favorite Key and Peel Skit, is the very 1st one they made called " I said Biiiiiiiiiitch"!

To answer your question free speech, is not a government thing to me.
It's not something given to me by Authority.

The only reason governments believe they can "give you free speech" it's because they also believe they have the right to take it away from you.

My definition of free speech is simply this, I'm here because my mother chose to love me and therefore I have every right to be here and to speak my truth whenever I feel it is necessary.

Let me know what you think of that definition

It's a pleasure having a conversation with you

thank you

💜

[Caliman73]

60. As human beings we operate in a variety of environments.

The government does not "give" you free speech. The government (which is formed by the people for the people) recognizes the right of free speech.

However, like I said in all meanings of free speech, there are limits. I can say that Donald Trump is the worst and most disgusting person ever to hold office. I could have said that outside the White House if I wanted to, without fear of getting arrested. I can go to Mar A Lago and shout it, or hold up a sign with those words, as long as I do not trespass on his property and do not impede traffic, I can stand there and the government cannot jail me. If I say that I will harm or kill the former president, then I put myself at risk of criminal liability because now I am not simply giving my opinion about a government official or former official, I am making an actionable threat against their life.

If I go to some Trump lover's home or onto a forum hosted by people who support him, they can kick me out of their home/site for saying that he is the worst, or stupid, or whatever (which is what my heart tells me I should say). Are they stopping my "free speech"? No, they are just telling me I cannot participate on the site or be in the home. You have a right to say what you want, but people do not have to listen to you and if they have authority over the physical/digital location where you are saying what you want, they can tell you to leave.

Similarly, if you make your living by engaging public attention and "speaking your heart or truth" offends people, they also have the right not to patronize you, and if they can convince enough people that what you said was enough to pull their support, then you may lose your ability to make your living the way you were.

I absolutely agree that you have a right to say what you want whenever you feel it is necessary. What I know from experience is that you cannot force people to agree, or even to listen. Also, if enough people do not like what you are saying, then they can and will find a way to make it more difficult for you to continue saying so. That is just how the world works.

Rights are funny things. They exist, but they are not some ethereal thing that exists in a vacuum. They exist in context and they have limits. Even the right to life has limits. I have the right to live and do what I want, but if I try to harm you or kill you or someone you love, you have a right to defend your life or your loved one's life and I may lose my life in the process. Thing is when I tried to harm you and take your life, I put my life in danger too because of your right to protect yours and those around you.

When you speak, regardless of whether it is your truth or from your heart, etc.. there are listeners, and their reaction will vary. Based on their reaction, you may not be able to say whatever you want whenever you feel it necessary without some kind of consequence.

[andym]

53. Free speech-our most powerful constitutional right, but dangerous, and independent of etiquette

Last edited Wed Oct 5, 2022, 02:57 PM - Edit history (4)

The ACLU has defended the free speech rights even of Nazis to express themselves as they did in Skokie Illinois in the 1980s. Democrats like Mike Dukakis were called out for supporting the ACLU. This aspect means that government is not supposed to regulate speech in any way, but for example, there are laws that prevent calling for imminent lawless action. These invoke the "harm" principle which can be an exception, even legally in the USA. But potential harm legally does not appear to extend beyond physical threats.
See these link for a detailed explanation:
https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

That kind of free speech (based on the Constitution) defines what's legal especially with regard to government intervention, but not what social etiquette or norms demand. There is a huge battle in the US over what constitutes proper social etiquette in speech. That is why there are debates about what words should be allowed in normal public discourse. Many find emotional harm in the some speech, but limiting their use is social, not legal. Some people even dedicate their lives to determining which words should be allowable. In the US, there are the culture wars, part of which center on which words are socially acceptable and to whom. Here too the the harm principle is employed, but the harm is typically not physical, but social, emotional etc. Some of these debates play out on DU, but they are widespread in academia and society, having political overtones.

The danger of unabated free speech is that it allows conspiracies to proliferate and demagogues to arise that could cause serious harm and mischief-- QAnon is one example and allowing fascist nationalists to achieve political power is another. Trump is easily an example of the latter. How to counter manipulative speech and disinformation is a major problem of our times given the technical advancements that allow mass communication for all.

[meadowlander]

56. You're confusing freedom of speech with freedom from the consequences of what you say.

Do you have a legal right to say most things (excepting things like shouting fire in a theatre or committing fraud)? Yes. The government cannot imprison you for saying nasty and disrespectful things.

Does that make it ethical to say anything you please and damn the consequences? No. Obviously.

If you say anti-social and disrespectful things, the natural consequence of that is that ethical and respectful people will shun you or will call you out publicly to answer for what you said. You also have the freedom to not care if people exert social peer pressure to get you to behave in a socially acceptable way. Yay, America.

But just because you have the freedom to do something, doesn't mean it's a good idea or the right thing to do it. That's the difference between ethics and politics.

Also, if someone disagrees with you or calls you out on something you said, you are not "forced to keep it to yourself". You have the options to a) debate them and explain why you are right or b) reevaluate and change your mind.

It's surprising how many people seem incapable of understanding this very fundamental concept.

[Heather MC]

57. Why did you feel the need to spend all that time attempting to correct me I know what I mean

What does free speech mean to you?

[inthewind21]

58. Free Speech

You posted some, and some replied.

[Heather MC]

59. k

[meadowlander]

61. Because I see the central fallacy in your post all the time.

Freedom of speech does not equal freedom to say anything you like and everyone will always agree with you and think you're great and want to be your friend.

That's what your argument amounts to. "Why can't I insult people to their faces and still have them love me? Why do I have to spend all this time and effort thinking about the words that come out of my mouth? Why can't everyone either just agree with me or shut up and suck it up?"

The reason is we live in a plural society. You are free to test your ideas. Other people are free to disagree with them. They are also free to not associate with you if the words you are saying are painful to them or to people they love or if you are disrespectful to them.

If you want to be included and have people like you, then make the effort to think about what you're saying and show people respect. But that's a totally separate thing to the Constitutional "freedom of speech" - the right not to be arrested or imprisoned by the government for the things you say or print.

Your argument is pernicious because it has been used for centuries by the majority to stifle the views and rights of minorities. A hundred years ago if you were a straight, cis, neurotypical, white man your could say whatever you wanted and nobody would ever challenge you on it because if they did the KKK would lynch the person calling you out on it or you could legally beat your wife or you and your buddies could drag the gay or trans person talking back to you behind their truck or you could lock up the "retards" in institutions and never have to interact with them. And that kept all those people quiet creating the illusion that your "free speech" (i.e. "thoughtless speech" ) was socially acceptable speech.

Now that the political forces that stifled other people's free speech are dropping away, "I have freedom of speech, I shouldn't have to be politically correct" is the argument of whining privileged adult babies too lazy to think about what they are saying and not used to being challenged on or defending the actual words coming out of their mouths or considering the impacts they have on others.

[Heather MC]

62. I see what's happening you misunderstood what I wrote

I don't need you to correct my thoughts, I said you can't cuss anymore I never said you can't cuss anyone out.
And as far as everything else you spoke about, you're speaking from your perspective as if you were explaining mine. I don't require you to explain me I know me very well thank you.

And please no I appreciate the conversation even if you apparently can't stand my post which, If there's someone who posts something I don't like I just ignore it but we're all different aren't we and we are all free to do that aren't we.

And I'm not speaking from the perspective of those idiots that just those people have no brain in their head.

Those people have lost the ability to actually carry on a conversation so they're not a part of this I'm talking to intelligent people about conversation.

As it relates to speaking with each other on the Internet.

And I'm not talking to republicans because why would anyone waste their time talking to them?

I hope you're having a lovely day. I know I am

[meadowlander]

63. I understand very well what you wrote

and so, I suspect do most of the other people here judging by the replies you are getting.

"You can't Speak what's really in your heart, if it goes against the public discourse.
When did freedom become just forcing people to say pleasant things, or keep it to yourself?"

Those of us who have been around the block once or twice know exactly what you mean by that.

[Hekate]

72. Very thoughtfully put, meadowlander

Thanks.

[leftyladyfrommo]

64. I used to believe that. Then these rightwing nutjobs

spewing their hate and lies . They are dangerous and I wish someone would shut them up.