He she sie?

[cyclonefence]

This discussion thread was locked by EarlG (a host of the General Discussion forum).

I am in favor of referring to people in their preferred manner. I confess to having a lot of trouble with "they" as a singular pronoun, not so much when I use it because I know who I'm referring to, but when I encounter it from others, especially in written text. It causes an interruption in the flow of ideas because I have to pause to remind myself who is being referred to.

This is not the biggest problem in the world.

Many years ago, there was a movement to replace "he" and "she" (and their iterations) with a neutral pronoun that could be applied to either sex (it was a binary world back then, at least to those of us ignorant of our non-binary citizens), and the word "sie" was suggested. I actually used it for a while, but grew tired of explaining.

English is not an inflected language; that is, we do not change the spelling of words to indicate whether the words are masculine or feminine. In many other languages, nouns are assigned gender and generally have different spellings for male or female words. In French, "chance" (luck) is feminine, and "Good luck" is rendered "Bonne chance", with the feminine adjective matching the feminine noun. "Bon voyage" and "bon appetit" reflect masculine endings to adjectives that modify masculine nouns.

We don't go in for that nonsense. "Good luck", "good travels", and "enjoy your dinner" don't kowtow to the gender of the noun.

So why do our pronouns have to be divided into male and female? Why don't we have one word to mean "person?" Not just to make things easier with the nonbinary community, but to make it fairer and more sensible for all of us?

You wouldn't have to mess with the plural pronouns, I think: "they" and "them" are just fine. But let's find a new word for him/her/person.

[pwb]

1. Human

or a person works for me.

[cyclonefence]

13. not pronouns

[GreenWave]

2. I agree with you, but sadly have no answer.

I believe language influences thought which influences behaviors and thereby cultures and civilizations. But this is not to presuppose that languages are perfect. To wit to woo: the demonstrative is our Achilles heel. If we allow for this, that and perhaps yonder, this only gives us 3 spatial coordinates and may very well hinder our understanding of this cosmos and we do not equip our minds for complex spatial relations.

That said, I grieve the oversimplification of languages currently in vogue where we do not understand perfect tenses which are quite easy if you can "time travel" linguistically. It could also be because past participles are incorrectly employed in everyday speech and hence the need to obliterate the perfect tenses.

As I have seen in romance languages sometimes a perfectly neutral word such as presidente will allow a new form for the female presidenta. But why? Estudiante does not show gender but that has not changed.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. Makes more sense to use a word we know in a new way than to try to introduce a new word.

[unblock]

4. "They/them" have been used as a singular pronouns for around 700 years

They only difference is it was usually reserved for someone you didn't know.

"A new tenant moved into the single unit on the 2nd floor but I haven't met them yet."

"If anyone has a problem with my pronouns, they can go f themselves"

Most people read these sentences as completely natural and not awkward or incorrect.

What's relatively recent is using they/them for people you do know but who prefer it, typically when for those who identify as non-binary.

I don't understand why people have a problem with it. If someone tells me to call them "bob", I'll call them bob. I don't say but your birth certificate says Robert or hell, maybe it says Francis and they just hate that name. If they want to be called bob, just call them bob.

[Hekate]

11. Thanks -- yes, "they" has been default gender-neutral singular since before the printing press

This is just a new bend in the road.

[Tree-Hugger]

16. This nt

[Tommy Carcetti]

5. I get thrown off by the "they" as well.

It makes that person sound like that person is schizophrenic.

[vercetti2021]

6. It's hard to do it

Like personally I never believed in the whole they/them thing. Its like when I transitioned. Physically I was still a man and thus was a male by physical appearance until I was comfort enough to go by she or her when I felt my feminine physically. But I respect others wishes and will use the words like hello lovely or beautiful. It helps them out tremendously

[cyclonefence]

14. Thank you

I love this response. Gorgeous.

[Torchlight]

7. A person should enjoy their vacation.

Each child played with their parent.

A private person usually keeps to themselves.



I'd believe it less than truthful if someone asserted any of those sentence were ambiguous or interrupting flow.

That said, sysadmin posted a thread relevant to this concern and there is a sub-conversion that specifically addresses this concern. I think it in everyone's best interest to read through that thread.

https://democraticunderground.com/101312142

[cyclonefence]

15. OK but

those examples are grammatically incorrect. As things stand now, the grammatically correct phrases would be "with his or her parent" and "keeps to him- or herself." Both of which are just awful. Alternatively, the masculine is the default, even if the child or the person is a female--unless she has been identified earlier as such. And it pisses me off that the standard construction puts the male pronoun first in all cases like this, again by default.

And for someone who deplores the decline of the American educational system, it is jarring. It is entirely possible, and I am ready to concede this, that I am hopelessly out of touch with the way English is taught in junior high school (or as the youngsters say, middle school). I am not a grammar nazi; errors in speech don't bother me at all. I would not have corrected someone saying the sentences you give as examples--and I would have known what you meant. But there are many instances in which I am reading, say, a New Yorker essay in which the subject's partner is mentioned in passing as "they." For a nanosecond, I don't know what the hell the author means.

Thanks for the reference to the specific thread.

[Sky Jewels]

8. I agree that a different singular pronoun is needed.

My kids both have a few friends who go by "they," and I usually have to clarify if they're referring to that one friend or that one friend + roommate, or whatever.

Question: Is "sie" pronounced "see"?

[cyclonefence]

17. The pronunciation of "sie" is

anybody's guess.

[obamanut2012]

9. They/them has been singular since about 1350

[Behind the Aegis]

10. BTW...English did have gendered nouns for many years!

Eventually, it was dropped, but like many other European languages, including German, a "parent" of English, still have gender.

[LeftinOH]

12. There already exists such a word in English: "One"

"One" is a gender-neutral pronoun which is seldom used in conversation, but that's precisely the pronoun in question. Why this hasn't been adopted into general use is a mystery.

[cyclonefence]

18. Too snobby? Too British?

I am We are
You (sing) are You (pl) are
One is They are
It is They are

Mine
Yours
One's
Theirs etc

Me
You
One
It

I think this works fine. Excellent suggestion.

[unblock]

19. One doesn't have quite the right meaning as it is not specific

We use anyone, or someone. But these all refer to non-specific people.

"Pat left one's umbrella at the restaurant"? Does that really make it clear that the umbrella belongs to pat?

We could change the meaning of "one" to use it with that meaning, but that isn't done today anywhere afaik.

As a practical matter, "they/them/theirs" is less likely to create ambiguity.

[EarlG]

20. Locking

For more information, see this thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215969127