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Tue Oct 25, 2022, 02:47 PM

Forget the letter. We all do dumb things

Ignore the letter, folks. It was a dumb move, and they know it. Maybe sent out by a GQP mole on the staff for all we know?

Contrast this to the GQP, which doubles down on every stupid idea and racist/mysoginist dog whistle someone in their party concocts. If someone blathers on about it, use it as a point to show how we don't all just follow the leader and all are allowed to have our own independent thoughts and, even more, can accept that people make mistakes.

In any event, ignore the distractions and focus on the election. Please, this is far too important, and that letter is NOTHING compared to impending fascism.

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Arrow 36 replies Author Time Post
Reply Forget the letter. We all do dumb things (Original post)
relayerbob Oct 2022 OP
Ocelot II Oct 2022 #1
Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #2
Hortensis Oct 2022 #11
Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #12
Hortensis Oct 2022 #20
Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #22
Hortensis Oct 2022 #24
Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #25
Hortensis Oct 2022 #28
Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #30
LetMyPeopleVote Oct 2022 #3
EndlessWire Oct 2022 #4
Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #23
iemanja Oct 2022 #5
grantcart Oct 2022 #6
relayerbob Oct 2022 #8
grantcart Oct 2022 #31
uponit7771 Oct 2022 #35
LetMyPeopleVote Oct 2022 #7
relayerbob Oct 2022 #9
sarisataka Oct 2022 #10
relayerbob Oct 2022 #17
brooklynite Oct 2022 #13
relayerbob Oct 2022 #18
Mr.Bill Oct 2022 #14
bluestarone Oct 2022 #15
relayerbob Oct 2022 #16
relayerbob Oct 2022 #19
grantcart Oct 2022 #32
leftstreet Oct 2022 #21
Kaleva Oct 2022 #26
relayerbob Oct 2022 #27
Kaleva Oct 2022 #29
LetMyPeopleVote Oct 2022 #33
betsuni Oct 2022 #34
relayerbob Oct 2022 #36

Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 02:51 PM

1. We can't afford to do things *that* dumb these days, so I hope it's soon forgotten.

The Progressive Caucus really stepped in shit this time, though. Maybe they should do more thinking next time.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 02:53 PM

2. I think we deserve some answers.

It looked like a clear attempt to undermine Biden and force his hand to do something that is plain wrong on so many levels.

Or maybe there are other games afoot.

Anyone we slice it, a very bad event.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:22 PM

11. It couldn't force Biden's hand -- Pelosi's in Zagreb today affirming our

commitment to restoring the whole of Ukraine and holding Russia accountable for war crimes -- along with several dozen other nations. We joined them in 2021. At least half of those nations are at significant risk of eventual Russian invasion without a united front to stop it. This letter did stir up trouble for us, though.

I suspect Pelosi and the conference etc is the reason Jayapal's office released the letter without getting approval of the signators. Grabbing the moment or something.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #11)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:29 PM

12. Yes it was an exercise in futility.

They couldn't force his hand for a number of reasons.
But that is what it looked like they were trying to do.

Or as you point out the timing might have something to do with a House leadership power struggle.
And had little to do with Ukraine.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:00 PM

20. Yes, it might. But, at bottom, oppositional factions MUST oppose

or they lose their political identity, their reason to exist, and their followers.

Those elected as Democrats have to please Democrats by supporting Democratic policies and actions. Yet all support must be balanced, and usually overbalanced, by behaviors that please those followers drawn to them as an oppositional faction.

So this is opposition.

Anyone can this balancing act going on constantly, and usually ridiculously blatantly when they look for it. Just check Twitter postings. Disapproval varies in style from strident anger at our intractable "corporatist corruption etc" to grave concern at our insistence on failing because we don't do as oppositional leaders advise. Or at forcing WWIII on the planet because we're too stupid to fear the risk and can't control our warmongering nature.

Of course, to be fair, people must believe in themselves. The opposition of most is sincere, as are the beliefs required to sustain it.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #20)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:14 PM

22. Yes, but usually oppositional factions try to avoid slitting their own throats.

As they pull their stunts and grandstanding.

This stunt certainly did not look sincere, well thought out, or reasonable.

It also embarrasses Biden, Pelosi and Zelensky. Think how the Ukrainian people feel as their
women and children are being raped and tortured. Out of the blue, their major support system spits out this BS.

If the grandstanders had legitimate points, they could have talked to Biden and Pelosi in
a respectful way for the sake of all parties involved.

Then if they got nowhere and had to grandstand they could have waited until after the election.

This opposition group looks weak, foolish and ill-advised.

(Don't get me wrong, I am about as progressive as they come. But this was total crap.

My first loyalties are to Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi. And I support the Ukrainian cause.)

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #22)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:25 PM

24. :) Agree, me too. Though, again, oppositional factions CAN'T cooperate

with those they exist to oppose. At least not as consistently as they refuse to cooperate.

As for waiting until after elections, elections are big opportunities for minor factions to maximize what ability they have to make themselves felt. How many oppositional followers would stick with leaders who refused to use that spoiler power and instead helped elect candidates they and their followers all believed should be replaced? That sincerity thing.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #24)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:29 PM

25. Yes but again the trick is to do all of that without slitting your own throat.

Which they did.

So as an opposing force they failed in the mission as you describe it.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #25)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:51 PM

28. Oh, yeah. I agree with that! :)

Failing the mission is becoming a pattern under Jayapal. Believe it or not, I was impressed initially with her and had real hopes she was new good leadership material. Those didn't last with a better view, though, and came to a permanent end when she threatened to kill the giant, hugely progressive bilateral infrastructure bill.

Bless Pelosi, who like me would regard destroying the entire bill because everything couldn't be achieved as a giant crime against the nation. She got it passed and made sure Jayapal couldn't follow through if she tried.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #28)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 08:54 PM

30. I feel the same way you do.

I initially had a good impression of Jayapal. But time has changed my mind for the reasons you describe.

I am quite progressive and been actually quite impressed with Biden along those lines.
He is doing a wonderful job and for anyone in our party to go after him made me mad.

Also I am very glad Pelosi has things under control.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 03:05 PM

3. And how does it get released by staff w/o vetting?

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 03:05 PM

4. No, I'm not going to forget the letter.

And, analyzing this letter in no way impedes the election. We are all talented enough to walk and chew gum at the same time.

The withdrawal letter states that they felt compared to Republicans. Well, of course they did. They were really supporting Putin's agenda, so being compared to Republicans seems like a lesser charge. Nothing in the withdrawal letter screams integrity in and of itself.

You cannot unsee this stupid letter signed by 30 members of Congress. It's out there. People across the seas know about it. They should really think through what they sign, like the source of the document, and the general situation, etc. The attention span of the public is about a week and a half. So, this incident will fade away of its own weight, after lessons are learned, hopefully. It sure came back to bite them in the ass, didn't it?

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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:16 PM

23. Of course, they did Putin's PR for him this week.

I have been a Dem progressive for a long time.

But this letter is making me re-think my position.

This was 100% pure crap and a betrayal of Biden and Ukraine.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 03:08 PM

5. A GQP mole on a progressive congresswoman's staff

Last edited Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)

How completely absurd. What a sad excuse.

It was a bad mistake. Jayapal needs to own it instead of blaming her staff.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 03:10 PM

6. Not s mistake, fucking malpractice.

Just when we had McCarthy pinned on a losing message we let him off with this idiotic move.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #6)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:05 PM

8. Bullshit

Did you actually read what they wrote? While I don't agree with it, it was hardly some major policy statement. I suppose you've never done anything in your life that you regret.

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Response to relayerbob (Reply #8)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 11:16 PM

31. Pathetic home town boosterism

"Never done anything that you regret"

Is that your standard? How childish.

No competent airline pilot has ever made a fundamental mistake landing an airplane at the right airport, no competent doctor has ever amputated the wrong leg, no competent attorney has ever argued a tort argument as the basis of a criminal complaint.

The specific charge of malpractice is not that the made some "mistake" but that they took action that was inimical to the core of their professional responsibility.

These amateurs are in fact paid professionals who are speaking about the most important issue of this century, nuclear proliferation and dismantling of nuclear arsenals.

In 1993 Ukraine possessed the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. They agreed to give it up on the condition that Ukraine's territory would be guaranteed.

The US and the Western European democracies gave Ukraine assurances that if they gave up the third largest nuclear stock pile in the world and signed the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons that we would stand with them supporting their independence and sovereignty WITHIN THE EXISTING BORDERS.

This agreement created the single largest unilateral nuclear disarmament in history. Oh and by the way who negotiated these agreements? Ambassador Blinken current Secretary of State, the person who these incompetents deign to lecture.

There is only one path forward to reduce and eliminate nuclear stock piles, solidarity among the West in keeping the commitments we have made to those that have given up their nukes. Russia was also a signatory so this war comes down to a single question, are we going to keep our word with Ukraine or not and failing to do so means that in the future neither Pakistan, or India or any other nuclear power will ever believe the assurances of the US when we make agreements to give up their nukes..

I took your "bullshit" with the gravitas of a casual uninformed internet commenter who hasn't read these international agreements which I have, but you know who hasn't read these agreements? The asses who signed the letter, and some of whom don't consider it an error and are still arguing for it on MSNBC as I type this out.

Everybody makes mistakes but I have never made such a mistake that is a core responsibility of my professional responsibility, have you? Would you be so understanding to a pilot that made the same level of mistake landing the next plane you are on or the surgeon opening up your chest?

We have only one weapon in the fight against the tyranny of Putin, complete solidarity.

The fact that these incompetent amateurs playing politicians are trying to lecture Blinken who actually was key to achieving the largest nuclear disarmament is as laughable as your use of vulgarity as a substitute for facts, logic or even a superficial grasp of the stakes involved

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Response to grantcart (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 26, 2022, 09:11 AM

35. Not really

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:04 PM

7. This is interesting

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:10 PM

9. I won't argue with each person who is all up in arms

Yes, it was dumb move. The attempt at recover shows they are mostly still very junior politicians.

But you all making it even bigger isn't helping a damn thing. Use this to show HOW we differ from the GQP, don't use for the perennial Democratic circular firing squad.

I reiterate for those who are only able to see red everywhere. THIS LETTER IS NOTHING COMPARED TO FASCISM. WAKE UP AND FOCUS!

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:19 PM

10. Of course it was a mole



Sorry, this isn't a little mistake. The letter was, in essence, advocating negotiation with fascism.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:54 PM

17. No, it was typical leftist kumbaya

Period.

I totally disagree with the letter, but it is borne in ignorance, not collaboration with the enemy.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:34 PM

13. Why did you feel the need to throw out a baseless conspiracy theory?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #13)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:55 PM

18. I'm sorry I did

It was a thought, not a "conspiracy theory". But, you see, we all say things we later regret

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:38 PM

14. And I suppose the staffer

forged all the signatures on the letter, too?

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:39 PM

15. Many will NOT forget this letter. TFG'S cult for one.

Plus POOTY saw this message that he should NEVER have received.

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #15)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:53 PM

16. Who cares what his cult thinks? I don't

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:59 PM

19. People here seem to think I support the letter

I don't. I am, and have been 100% agsint Putin since the beginning. How many of you have actually writeen your Senators and President Biden urging us to be more aggressive and ignore Putin's blackmail attempts?

My point is very simple, we continue to engage in "Democratic disarray", and We. Will. Lose. I don't give the first flying fuck about Pramila Jaypal, her statements, or anything else regarding this lette. I care 100% about us getting our shit together and winning this election. Fighting other Democrats is playing right into the GQP's hands.

But, we've been known to do that before, eh?

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Response to relayerbob (Reply #19)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 11:23 PM

32. You are correct that "Democratic disarray" is why we will lose.


The ire of many on this thread is that this caucus is the main cause of the disarray that you correctly bemoan.

It is not an accident that many of those who signed the letter are those who are most active in primary challenges to good Democratic office holders.

We are angry at this group because they represent super safe districts and fight other Democrats.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:00 PM

21. Why wasn't it released when it was written, in June?

I don't get this. Were they gathering signatures all this time?

How did the WA Post get it yesterday?

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:44 PM

26. Are you worried DUers might not vote because of the letter?

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #26)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 05:50 PM

27. No, but others watch social media

and use that to frame narratives like "Democrats in disarray"

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Response to relayerbob (Reply #27)

Tue Oct 25, 2022, 08:11 PM

29. Ok

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Wed Oct 26, 2022, 08:46 AM

33. Liberal Democrats withdraw letter to Biden that urged him to rethink Ukraine strategy

This letter was a very stupid idea


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/25/democrats-ukraine-letter/?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

The Congressional Progressive Caucus has rescinded a letter, signed by 30 House liberals and sent to the White House on Monday, that urged President Biden to negotiate directly with Russia to bring an end to the war in Ukraine.

The withdrawal comes a day after the letter, led by Congressional Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), triggered fierce pushback from many Democrats. The retraction was also a stunning misstep for a prominent House liberal who has expressed interest in seeking a leadership position in the party.

In the wake of the letterís release, Democrats and Ukrainian officials argued that it was unrealistic to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Those officials also worried the letter could create more pressure on Biden as he tries to sustain domestic support for the war effort, at a time when the region is heading into a potentially difficult winter and Republicans are threatening to cut aid to Ukraine if they retake Congress......

The Congressional Progressive Caucus has rescinded a letter, signed by 30 House liberals and sent to the White House on Monday, that urged President Biden to negotiate directly with Russia to bring an end to the war in Ukraine.

The withdrawal comes a day after the letter, led by Congressional Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), triggered fierce pushback from many Democrats. The retraction was also a stunning misstep for a prominent House liberal who has expressed interest in seeking a leadership position in the party.

In the wake of the letterís release, Democrats and Ukrainian officials argued that it was unrealistic to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Those officials also worried the letter could create more pressure on Biden as he tries to sustain domestic support for the war effort, at a time when the region is heading into a potentially difficult winter and Republicans are threatening to cut aid to Ukraine if they retake Congress.

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Response to relayerbob (Original post)

Wed Oct 26, 2022, 08:50 AM

34. NO. Democrats are NEVER given the benefit of the doubt. These are Justice Democrats.

Their agenda is different.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #34)

Wed Oct 26, 2022, 11:01 AM

36. Thanks for assisting the GQP

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