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[nadinbrzezinski]

This message was self-deleted by its author (nadinbrzezinski) on Tue Nov 6, 2012, 02:04 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Dkc05]

1. It will be over by 9 pm. He will concede

This deal is done.

[ChangeUp106]

2. Unless it comes down

to a legitimate battle in let's say Ohio where there really is a need for a recount or more time to count in general, Romney will concede.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. And only if OH actually matters

As in it would make a difference.

If OH goes to Romney after a long drawn fight and it brings it down to 270, they will concede.

[Ilsa]

3. I hope he's too messed up & Tagg (or Queen Ann) has to do it for him. nt

[2pooped2pop]

4. Have to disagree with you on this point.

The "other side" is not an unending fountain of evil,

I totally believe they are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. If it helps

A few partisans on the dark side believe you are.

This s not just not healthy, but the kind of attitude and other-ism that is a prelude to civil war. And I mean that.

[2pooped2pop]

9. yes, it is.

very close to civil war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Well, enjoy the war

I will make a point to leave. Sorry, been there done that and war is not fun.

[2pooped2pop]

33. so, to avert war the answer

is for "our" side to bend over and take it some more? I'm thinking no.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. No, it's not

But you interpret this whatever way you do.

If you think it will be fun, so be it... Enjoy the war. I can make you one guarantee, it won't be fun.

[2pooped2pop]

42. fun?

You have squawked about the civil war many many times on this thread. As a matter of fact you are the only one saying it.

Then ,if we don't agree with your words, it's all over, have fun with the oncoming war?

Really, I have seen people on here accuse you of this behavior before but always respected you myself and would never have believed it.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that there will be no civil war.

I still believe the republicans are evil. If ever there was an evil on earth, it is them. Not so much the misguided Fox watching fools, but those in power, have evil intentions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. You are the one engaged in other-sm

Not me.

[2pooped2pop]

46. yes, that's right. You are of the both sides are the same,

lame crowd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. No, not quite

I am on the yes, they are radicals, yes they are extreme, but they are not the other...there is a profound difference. Nor are they evil. If you don't get how dangerous your thinking is, you should crack a history book... I recommend any modern civil war for that matter, Boston circa 1855 is a good case study too.

[coalition_unwilling]

28. 30+ years ago, I might have agreed with Nadin. Now, though, I view the Rape-publican

Party as a bunch of fascists.

I would challenge anyone willing to continue to give the Rape-publicans a break to name even one piece of positive legislation or policy put forward by the Rape-publicans in the past 30 years. It cannot be done, because it has not happened.

Maybe 'evil' is too strong a word. But 'disaster' is not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. I said evil for a reason

They are radicals, but not evil... Words matter. And I refuse to engage in other ism. It's simply not healthy.

Radicals can be tamed, evil has to be destroyed.

Other ism is really dangerous. Perhaps it's the been in a war zone and it's not nice and debriefed victims of actual, real genocide, that make me take pause at this yes...stupidity and dangerous thinking.

[Arazi]

72. Why do you accuse people of labelling Republicans "others" as though that's a pejorative?

When they correctly label them as fascistic?

Calling them and their agenda by its correct name shouldn't be shut down - it needs to be exposed. Why do you persist in condemning anyone who accurately calls them out for their reprehensible positions as perpetuating some kind of "otherism? (whatever that means)?

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Re-read the thread

I said that they are not the fountain of all evil, I was corrected that yes, they are. This is pure creation of the other.

[Arazi]

78. So you draw the line at calling them "evil"?

Cause their policies and many of their people really are.

That's just telling the truth. You seem to be trying to create some sort of malice on the part of posters - as though they are engaged in what? some kind of holocaust thing?

Its not demonization if there's demonstrable, tangible evidence backing the use of those terms.

Its almost as though you are trying to shut down critique.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. No, I draw the line as seeing them as less than human

Which the other side does too. Linguistically, sorry to be this blunt, evil is a word used when you go that route.

If you want to, nobody is stoping you. I won't join you though.

[Arazi]

92. So the policies (and even the people) are demonstrably fascist (which is evil)

but you believe that anyone who calls them out on that is crossing some kind of linguistic barrier?

That doesn't even make sense. And it smacks of censorship. Or you are deliberately constructing some kind of accusation to falsely accuse DUers of going down that route. Exposing the truth, critiquing policies - that's part of the democratic process. Accusing people who participate in that of emulating Nazi techniques is pretty unfair.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. No, fascism is not evil, it is radical

I see your problem there, you attach emotion to political philosophies...and I am saying this as the daughter of a holocaust survivor.

People themselves can be evil, policies can be, political philosophies are not.

Fascism is a radical right political philosophy.



Perhaps when you detach emotion we can talk rationally of the creation of the over and it's dangers to any society.

[Arazi]

96. But there are tangible people attached to those philosophies and its practice

There are really evil, shitty things being done on the part of Republicans.

Calling them out isn't making them the "other" (whatever you mean by that). And its not emotional. Its facts. You are the one whose demonizing people who are critiquing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. I am not shutting down none

You are projecting there. As to the creation of the other, there are scads of academic papers on the subject, as well as a few good books on it.. You might want to check a few out of the library and read them. I am being like as serious as a heart attack.

The language I am seeing here s very reminiscent of that used by the Guatemalan far right about the Maya before the genocide started. Nothing more "amusing" than hearing stories of that nightmare from survivors. Lets just say they were similar to Eastern Europe a few decades earlier.

So yes, I am serious as a heart attack, and the other side is doing it as well.

You want to call them on policies? I am right besides you. You want to call them heartless...ok, you start to remove their humanity, you lost me...it as to do with what happens for real.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

85. Paulo Freire’s “Pedagogy of the oppressed”

Freire’s words seem almost like a forewarning:

Dehumanization of the oppressed is a distortion of being more fully human, sooner or later being less human leads the oppressed to struggle against those who made them so. In order for this struggle to have meaning, the oppressed must not, in seeking to regain their humanity, become in turn oppressors of the oppressors, but rather restorers of the humanity of both”.

Paulo Freire’s “Pedagogy of the oppressed”

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Yup, that is what I am talking about, partly.

[randome]

40. They are 'fascists' who are rapidly losing power.

Not fast enough, of course, but it's happening.

[Whisp]

38. the contrast is vast. they are evil. I agree.

they would put the whole nation in jeopardy to fullfil Turtleman's dream of destroying Obama. The debt ceiling, the jobs act stopped, etc., the war on women's bodies and minds.

YES THEY ARE EVIL! OMG if these things aren't evil, what is???

[aandegoons]

100. This is so true.

I don't think it is a matter of opinion at this point. I think one only has to see Rmoneys face when he left the podium on the night of Benghazi to know this is true.

[marions ghost]

6. hmmmmmm

The other side cheats enough to steal elections. That makes them pretty evil IMO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Historically so have dems

You think the Chicago machine or tamany hall are just there for fun?

[marions ghost]

10. you'd have a hard time convincing me

that Dems cheat in elections like the Rethugs do. I'm a long way from Chicago in a swing state & have seen the pattern for at least 20 years. Rethugs think "the ends justify the means"-- sorry, they are not to be trusted.

And the Democrats certainly don't try to suppress voting.

You DON'T see the pattern?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. What part of historical are you purposely missing?

Is this a problem with the word or what? I still refuse to see other people, I disagree in profound ways with, as the pure fountain of evil and the enemy.

Sorry, that leads to a shooting civil war...and those are not fun. You insist on it? Enjoy the front lines, should be "fun."

[WinkyDink]

21. You sure are cocky about having THE TRUTH, aren't you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Did I lie about that history?

I think not.

Have fun.

And I notice you have a problem with a reasonable prediction, not this gnashing of teeth, oh my god he won't concede and challenge every vote....WE....ARE....DOOMED!

[marions ghost]

37. We have a cold civil war now

I don't think it will lead to a wide scale shooting war. But it is just as serious a division, and shutting up about it is never good. Don't worry I feel like I AM on the front lines of the cold Civil War.

I'm talking historical--25 years in one state is historical. I have never seen or heard of a reported case of Dem suppression or tampering (not even sign-stealing or vandalizing). I have seen it many times from Rethugs. Just this past weekend near here someone went through a whole neighborhood and spray painted over all the Obama yard signs, for example. This is commonplace. But I'm more worried about the evil at the upper crusty end of the Rethug party--the ones who own the machines and the media. It is clear that they WILL steal and attempt to steal elections. Now. In the present. Never mind history.

Anyone who hasn't jumped ship from the Rethugs now is either Fuxed over, lo-info, or greedy unethical rich. It's an unholy union, corrupt to the core. In my mind corruption on the scale we are seeing is evil. Check out the "Voter Integrity Project" in North Carolina--Rethuglican effort to disenroll people. Some people even received letters stating that they were dead.

We can agree to disagree on this. But you'd have to give me some concrete evidence of current Democratic party cheating to counter the extensive list of things I have seen from the R side-- to have a hope of getting me to sing Kumbaya today or any day.

The Rethug party as it is today--is ethically challenged. Dems OTOH usually do the right thing, and I'm sure sometimes they fail, but their record is far superior. It's a clear choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I have been saying we are in a cold civil war

Started in '96 or so. I expect it to go hot, that does not mean I won't fight to try to stop it.

It is not nice, and there is no honor or glory in it.

So forgive me if I refuse to engage in other-ism. You go right ahead. My advise go to the range, you will need it.

[marions ghost]

60. So Libruls should shut up

cause "they" got guns?

Somehow if civil war breaks out, I actually do think Obama and the well-armed Armed Forces WILL save me & I won't have to try to shoot anyone myself (--if you knew me you'd laugh at that idea, altho I'm pretty good with darts).

My words are my only weapon and I will always use them when appropriate. To "shhhsssh" people is like going back to the McCarthy era, if you like history. I don't believe in being silenced like that. (Or more recently look at those in media & govt who were too cowed to take a stand against the WMD snowjob). Do you want DU to be PC or do you want it to be about freedom of expression? If you can't say what it is we're up against here, where can you say it?

You can't "turn the other cheek" towards people who refuse to do that for you. And referring to their practices as evil and corrupt is not too harsh when it is clearly apparent. Anything else is agreeing to live in fear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Somehow you are misreading this as shut up

Which does not surprise me one iota. Apparently not engaging in other-ism is not confronting a radical agenda.

But hey, predictable.

[marions ghost]

69. I hope you don't mean this personally

..."predictable." Snide.

I am not engaging in "Otherism" across the board. I lay the majority of the blame for the cold civil war at the feet of a few greedy rich guys & their corrupt followers, a few Christians in Name Only, a few media moguls, and a few rightwing agitators (i think we know who they are). I think it's OK to call these people evil masterminds. EVIL.

The average middle class & poor folks who have been brainwashed and scared and robbed --and still call themselves "Republicans" -- they are not the Other. They are victims.

So what would you suggest. OTHER than chilling, being silent? How did I misunderstand you? You are telling people not to use the word "evil" in connection with Rethuglicon. That seems like avoiding the truth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. That is engaging in the creation of the other

Read some history on that

They are radicals, they are fascistic, they are many of these things, but they are not evil...sorry if you consider that chilling. I will not join you in that linguistic step, you go right ahead.

[marions ghost]

83. I've read it,

& I think you need to talk to some Rethugs and other right wingers about "otherizing." I am only speaking against them in self-defense. I don't hate people but I do call them at their hateful behavior.

"Fascists are not evil." -- well I can go with calling them sick malignant psychopaths, but I don't get there's much difference.

Evildoers are evil.

This is giving me a headache--maybe we can take it up later, since we agree on the extent of the problem--but you want to argue names for it? You'll have to convince me that some hardcore Rethuglicon really cares what I call him/her. (No personal put-downs tho--that's otherizing to me).

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. I never said they don't do it

They do...so should I jump from the bridge because some others do?

Sorry, I won't join you, or them.

I know this automatically makes me the enemy in some people's minds, so be it.

[marions ghost]

93. Can we all get along?

Not asking you to join me in anything. Not trying to argue to "win" anything. Not interested in making enemies.

Just saying--there is evil in the behavior of the Rethuglicons. If you have a better way of stating that fact, go ahead.

But I can't sanitize it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. There is your problem, I am not sanitizing policies,

I just refuse to see them as less than human. Sorry if this is so damn hard to comprehend.

[marions ghost]

99. No, unfortunately I see them

as all TOO human. Selfish, lying, greedy, corrupt...human beings, with humanly evil intentions.

Doesn't mean I have to "forgive them, they know not what they do." They know very well.

Sometimes you have to try to root out evil where you see it. Predatory hateful behavior in humans is like poison ivy--it just keeps sprouting up and all you can hope to do is knock it back.

I'm looking for a better quality of human in political office. So of course I don't expect Rethuglicons to fill the bill. (Not talking about ye olde moderate Republicans--(a dying breed) --am talking the new Rethuglicons who would destroy the country before they'd compromise with Obama--and who steal elections by every means possible, in broad daylight).

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Forgive me but who exactly is telling you to forgive them?

There are days...

Have a wonderful day.

Me, will be doing returns later in the day...woohoo.

[gravity]

12. Seriously

We still have the rule of law and the most votes wins.

The only way that Romney could challenge the election is if it was very close and even in that case, they have to at least have a semi-credible legal case for them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Which all data points as not existing.

[Panasonic]

13. Ohio will not be needed.

Obama will exceed the 270 threshold with most of the swing states going his way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. That is my sincere hope

The SOS will not be happy, but time for oh not to matter.

[BlueMan Votes]

15. "hack eyed"...?

[HopeHoops]

18. Yes, but rMoney is ENTITLED to be Emperor!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Entitled or not

We are not that kind of an empire.

[HopeHoops]

24. Not yet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Well, the empire is in decline

But that is a completely different discussion.

[WinkyDink]

19. "The "other side" is not an unending fountain of evil," I beg to differ.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. As I said above

The other side believes that of you. This thinking is a prelude to civil wars and creations of the other.

Enjoy the civil war, it should be "fun."

[99Forever]

26. I respect you very much...

... but I just don't agree this time. The other side (no need for quotation marks) is indeed, an unending fountain of evil. Their words say it and their actions prove it. I see no reason to think otherwise. None.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Enjoy the hot civil war

Other-ism is part of the process to get to it.

I hope you enjoy the "honor and glory in it". This thinking is dangerous to the extreme, and given the "other side shares it" you confirm why it/ coming. I hope you enjoy it.

[Whisp]

44. omg, legitimate rape, aspirin between the knees for women,

blocking jobs bills, the debt ceiling fiasco, and a list of countless other dangerous crazy fucked up in the head stuff coming from the right these last 4 years (and 8 before) do quality them as extremely evil.

What do you want? What is it you are asking of us? To forgive them? to slink in a corner and count our own sins instead of fighting theirs?

What the royal fuck are you talking about?

[AlinPA]

54. Who was it with the aspirin tablets between the knees? i forgot his name.

[Whisp]

57. I think it was a Santorum backer - Chris smith? not sure which one. n/t

[AlinPA]

59. Oh, yes, a billionaire right-winger. Thanks.

[99Forever]

62. Well...

... then. I see you aren't above putting thoughts and words onto other people. Why do you put quotation marks around words you made up?

I thought better of you. Guess I do learn something new every day.


Peace, out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Creating the other is a very real phenomena

But I am sure it has not happened ever before, even in US history. Oh wait, before Bacon's revolt, before the American Revolution and the Civil War, just to mention the biggies.

But you are right, never ever happened before.

[99Forever]

70. I'm going to trash this thread...

... before you attribute even one more of your made from whole cloth issues to me, Nadin. The condescending tone you are using toward me, is personally insulting. VERY bottom of the barrel. I'm am gravely disappointed in the way you have acted.

I'll never again see anything you post the same way and that's a shame.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Go for it

I am now the enemy to you. That is cool. I can live with that.

[99Forever]

82. Did I say you were the enemy?

Last edited Tue Nov 6, 2012, 04:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Good grief. Get a grip.

...or perhaps...

You do actually believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% of the time is the enemy?

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. No, it is part of it, sorry.

[99Forever]

98. Yet you expect me to...

... to temper my words about the fucking goons who are responsible for killing people in this Nation and around the world each and every day, with impunity? I've got news for you, journalist Nadin, the civil war has been going on for many years and we're getting our asses kicked.

I'll never take you seriously again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. No, do as you wish

In fact, will shut this whole discussion down, since more than a few are misrepresenting why I am trying to convey. I guess debriefing genocide survivors and reading scads of academic papers on this makes my views ivory tower and I am the enemy...just trying to share, but it isn't working fella, so off to delete thread I go. And unlike you, I will delete it.

Have an excellent day.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. I beg to differ ...

romney will not concede, even after we cross the 270 number, unless that number goes well into the 300s.

Unlike Democrats, the gop concede nothing close. It's one of the benefits in living in a self-created reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I bluntly disagree

Mostly, if Obama has 270 and no way to flip a state, the law is not with Romney.

Yup, it is as simple as that.

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. Since when has the modern gop ...

demonstrated fidelity to the law?

I get what you're saying; but ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. It's called the courts. The USSC goes there again

...

[1StrongBlackMan]

79. True! n/t

[redStateBlueHeart]

30. If he does

The 'Pubs will say that it was planned for Romney could concede so Obama would win the election and continue his plans to become a dictator...

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. The internal party civil war is already ongoing

It will be on a crescendo.

[randome]

34. I agree. Your last point is especially valid.

[SDjack]

47. At midnight, the news will be that Rmoney just called the President and conceded,

during an airplane flight to be with his true love -- his money in the Caribbean.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I can actually see that one

Ronmey will disappear from the national scene...best case, and I doubt it, short term gig at fox.

[AlinPA]

50. I can't believe that arrogant bastard has the class to give a concession. He won't do it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. You can believe what you want

But politics is a strange game...concession has none to do with class.

[Whisp]

58. I'm feeling that too. He is not going to be gracious, that's for sure

if he does do one.

This one is damaged and has no idea how to play within the rules, of anything.

[marions ghost]

67. here's what I think he'll do

--a kind of choked-up maudlin, "spend time with the family" concession. And then he'll slink away. Tomorrow he'll be "oh well, God has something better in mind for me. And he'll confer with his buddies operating behind the scenes to figure out what that might be..."

But I agree, "rules" don't come into it.

[mod mom]

51. I'm nervous they're using Hamilton County OH as a predictor....

when it is one of two (out of 88) counties in OH that use Hart Intercivic voting machines:

Tagg Romney's private equity firm, Solamere Capital, is invested in another private equity firm called H.I.G. Capital. A little over a year ago, H.I.G. invested heavily in Hart and took over its board.

-snip

That said, several top executives at H.I.G. are what's known as bundlers for the Romney campaign, according to a database created by USA Today using data from the Sunlight Foundation. That means they have raised tons of money for Romney. There are also three H.I.G. executives on the board of Hart InterCivic, and two of them have donated to Mitt Romney's campaign (though one gave to both Romney and President Obama in the last election cycle).


http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/11/02/164205676/is-romney-son-gunning-to-steal-ohio-vote-by-rigging-voting-machines

Proprietary source code in machines shown to be vulnerable to tampering owned by a GOP controlled business with so much power & money in stake make me sick to my stomach.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Why I am hoping OH will really not matter.

[liberalhistorian]

53. I don't know. I hope you're right, but he's so arrogant

and egotistical and power-hungry that I'm not sure that he will concede even when it's apparent that he's losing or has lost. He will probably have great difficulty grasping the fact that the great unwashed masses just don't want him, that all the billions at his command didn't work, and that he's lost to a black man.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Why the crying, screaming and all that in private

But a concession will happen.

[gravity]

63. Arrogance doesn't win elections

Votes do.

Eventually that reality will set in and Romney will be forced to concede.

[Jim Warren]

65. Save this thread

Revisit later to see where the arrogance really lies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. What, you expect Ronmey not to concede?

Ok.

[GoneOffShore]

68. I'll agree with you on the concession. The other stuff - No way.

I've read your posts about "other-ism" and although there is some truth to it, I think that you just don't get how evil many people in the Republican party are.

And no, I don't think that this will lead to a hot civil war. Present some recent evidence that it might and perhaps I'll consider your point of view. Otherwise, it's really just assertion on your part.

[Jim Warren]

71. Then

What is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

[GoneOffShore]

73. Indeed it can. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. American civil war, bacon's Revolt

The American Revolution

The Salvadoran Civil War, the Guatemalan Civil War, the Mexican Revolution, the wars in the Balkans, I could include a few genocides two of them in those listed wars, sorry that be three, forgot the Balkans for some strange reason. Oh I forgot the biggie in the creation of the other, the Holocaust, let's not forget the Tutsi massacres, then there are the death camps in Cambodia...and this is the short list.

[GoneOffShore]

80. Too many people devoted to Next Iron Chef, etc to indulge in armed revolt.

Maybe some militias somewhere and then it's Waco time all over again.

Please..... Sometimes you post good stuff, other times......

And this is one of the other times.

And that's all I'm posting on this. Not coming back to look because it would be pointless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Well, read on civil wars

They are never ever started by a majority

[Science Geek]

81. I think Mitt will declare victory and then concede...

It'll be his last chance to flip-flop, after all.

[maryellen99]

84. I think he will concede

but making the phone call to President Obama? No Way

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. He will do that as well, decorum.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Delete thread due to massive

Misrepresentation, have a good day.