Poland attacked. 4 Killed. Read NATO Article 5. We can NOT keep waiting to deal with MOTHERFUCKERS.

[Stinky The Clown]

[Irish_Dem]

1. We keep learning that the rules don't apply to powerful psychopaths.

They scare us and we just don't know how to handle them.

[onecaliberal]

2. Let people who are not afraid handle them.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. That would pretty much be Zelensky

as far as I can tell.

I just wish we would finally give him the weapons systems he's been begging for for almost a year now.

[onecaliberal]

33. I hope we do too. His people are so courageous. How many have been killed?

[Chuuku Davis]

81. Guesstimates are 35K-45K killed

60K-80 injured.

[onecaliberal]

84. I don't get how tis is acceptable.

Fucking monsters.

[Bucky]

101. It's not

But there's more than one way to retaliate. We have other arrows in our quiver besides "bomb them right back"

[Ocelot II]

3. Poland has to invoke Article 5 before NATO can retaliate.

Since it is not yet clear whether the missile strike was intentional or accidental, Poland is more likely to invoke Article 4, which allows members to bring the issue before the North Atlantic Council so the members can decide how to proceed. Stoltenberg has scheduled an emergency meeting for tomorrow in Brussels.

[Xolodno]

7. From what I read....

...they just now confirmed it was a Russian made missile. But also caveated they don't know who fired it (which means Ukraine probably has a few of these).

It was also a "single act", in other words, unintentional.

And the OP is incorrect, only two people died.

Finally unlike some here, the Polish government is urging for calm until the full investigation is complete. It may not even go to Article 4 and be handled diplomatically directly with both parties, such as an apology, etc.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-11-15-22/index.html

[electric_blue68]

10. This. ☝️Ty

[SCantiGOP]

15. And it was an accident

A few years ago we shot down an Iranian airliner and killed hundreds of civilians.
Was that an act of war? Of course not. We apologized and paid reparations to the families of the victims. Russia did not intentionally fire a missile into a farm field just across the border.

[stopdiggin]

49. thank you. awful lot of voices (outside of Poland)

that seem intent on escalating. Let's see what the parties involved have to say (and do).

[tritsofme]

4. A potentially errant missile should trigger WWIII and the deaths of millions?

Let’s understand what happened before doing anything crazy, like you seem to be suggesting

[AkFemDem]

5. Right? Why TF...

Are people so eager for WWIII, a nuclear WWIII to begin??!!!

[AkFemDem]

6. Nuclear WWIII

People here WILL be drafted because our current armed forces are severely undermanned. Our kids WILL be drafted. Our sons and daughters will fight and die, and not just “those other peoples kids from the heartland or wherever”, and then our kids will be left to deal with the aftermath. It’s an atrocious and terrifying vision. It’s not going to play out like an episode of Homeland.

[tritsofme]

9. It's absolutely bizarre, like they think they're getting the boys together to watch fight night.

[electric_blue68]

18. I believe on the rarest of times to fight militarily. This is NOT one of them. As others have said..

bc I couldn't think of it a few hours before but back channel stuff etc is on the table. Ty people for pointing out various possibilities.

[Mariana]

24. Because they don't think they will be directly affected.

They imagine they will watch it all on TV cheering on their team, and feel righteous.

[Xolodno]

25. It's why I think the made for TV movies...

...Threads and The Day After should be remade. Slap it on Hulu, Netflix, etc.

Make sure you get the audience invested into the characters and then see the ramifications of a Nuclear Holocaust.


This isn't going to be some glorious Red Dawn movie. Hell, NATO and Russia have no plans to invade after a nuclear exchange. Literally just hoping they pull themselves out of the ashes before the other side does.

[electric_blue68]

11. THIS ☝️

[hlthe2b]

13. +1000

[onetexan]

83. ☝️This!! We are not diplomats. Lets not rush to call for escalation which could be highly dangerous

For many countries, not just poland & the soviets.

[Bucky]

100. Yes, this is all very "Missiles of October"

A Cuban anti-aircraft missile operator shot down a US reconnaissance plane in 1962. It was a provocation. But it didn't provoke a war. We need cooler heads to prevail

[Trenzalore]

8. Russia is firing off 40 year old equipment

It is a miracle this is the first time this has happened.

If you want to die over a grain silo in Poland you need help. It obviously is not a strategic target Russia would launch a first strike on.

[EndlessWire]

14. I get the caution

but it wasn't just a grain silo, it was the murder of two human beings that were not at war with Russia.

[Trenzalore]

17. 2 people in my town died in car accidents today

I hate to break it to you, not a big deal.

[EndlessWire]

20. Your callous disregard

of human lives is duly noted.

[Trenzalore]

22. Yes because I'm saying be cool

and not kill billions.

[hlthe2b]

12. We need to verify what happened and why first.

Come on, folks. Yes, we want to act promptly and appropriately, but appropriately (forearmed with the full facts) is the keyword.

[msongs]

21. reality is not a popular concept sometimes but you are correct nt

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

16. Simple response...

NATO has AWACS up 24/7, they know where the missiles were launched from.

Vlad next time you launch a missile, the launcher will be evaporated within minutes. Your period of grace is over.

This wasn't an 'accident', there are no accidents with cruise missiles. It may have gone astray, that's not Poland's problem, it's yours.

Your missile privileges have been revoked.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. You're absolutely right

Vaporize that launch site and 10 more.

And be ready to do it again, but with 20 more sites.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

82. Biden said it was unlikely that the rocket came from Russia.

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

86. Interesting.

Biden didn't say that it was fired by Russian forces. Biden left a huge back door, such as Russian occupied Ukraine, such as Crimea, or the Black Sea.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

89. Strictly speaking, that's true.

But why would Joe Biden--someone who always tells it "straight" try to get cute if he did not have intelligence that undercut the idea that Russians launched this missile?

It would be very out of character, methinks.

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

91. It's firstly a Polish matter, secondly NATO.

It's not the USA's prerogative to lay blame at this time. It's not getting cute, it's just simple diplomacy.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

95. Uh, no. Finding out the truth will be a NATO-wide matter under Article 4.

An examination of the wreckage will show the type of missile involved and US telemetrics (and others) will be used to establish the launch path of the missile.

If Biden says it wasn't launched from Russia, expect that he knows things.

It won't take long to establish the truth of things. In the interim, let's not start WWIII over what may have been a UKR forces S-300.

Deal?

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

96. NATO & the US know exactly where the missile was fired from.

Poland knows exactly what the species was. There are pics all over the net.

Nowhere did I suggest anyone start WWIII.

I did suggest Putin's period of grace was over.

Meaning Ukraine will have access to missiles to take out the launch vehicles, be they in the Black Sea, Crimea, or other occupied Ukrainian territory.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

97. I hope very much that Ukraine gets additional anti-aircraft capacity. They need additional systems

to deal with ongoing Russian attacks. Full stop.

This missile may well have been fired in defense by UKR forces against incoming Russian missiles.

The full story will come out imminently.

[AntivaxHunters]

19. Let's have a little comparison

[marble falls]

26. Putin thinks if he can widen the war just enough, he might be forced to end his 'misadventure' ...

... in Ukraine, maybe get the peace commission to settle it all up, possibly give them some land that they claim.

He doesn't surrender or get the Russian armed forces bruised any further, and he might be able to negotiate some land concession.

Sort of the "stop me before I kill again" gambit. And then let the lawyers sort it out.


Personally, I think he should make a big parade out of Ukraine, declaring victory and the elimination of all vestiges of Nazis in Ukraine. And let the lawyers sort it out.



We don't know if this was a renegade Russian commander, a purposeful provocation, a technical glitch. KAL 007 had over 200 victims, including a US Congressman. Russians.

[arthritisR_US]

28. They have nukes so bomb where they are stored.

[Kennah]

29. Like in their subs?

[tritsofme]

31. Any other advice, Dr. Strangelove?

[Kennah]

30. What if it were a Ukrainian S300 that went off course?

[YourFriendlySnake]

34. Then we bomb where the missile was launched. Ukraine or Russia, attack NATO and you get the hammer.

[Hav]

39. Jesus...that's not how Nato works

Have people lost their mind here? Now even Ukraine will be a Nato target?

Didn't the US accidentally hit unintended civilian targets before?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

40. Hey genius,

why would NATO bomb a country that we're helping?

[Kennah]

54. NATO would not, but the fog of war means that shit happens, and if it's unlikely this was Russia ...

[MarineCombatEngineer]

58. I just can't see Russia lobbing a missile at a grain silo, even as a warning,

more likely it was a missile that malfunctioned in flight and landed where it did and tragically killed 2 people.

It baffles me to see this jump to conclusion that it was Russia that fired the missile and wanting immediate retaliation by some here before the investigation has even started or concluded.

[Kennah]

59. Whoever did it, I'd say it was a projectile that went not as intended. Stupid not malice.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

62. Agreed. nt

[Just A Box Of Rain]

74. Because they attacked Poland!

Article 5! Article 5 Now!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

78. LOL..

I see what you did there.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

79. I hoped you might. LOL

[stopdiggin]

51. J.F.C! really starting to come unwound.

we're seeing some really itchy trigger fingers around here. think everyone needs to slow down - take some deep breaths.
---- ----

[Chuuku Davis]

52. The S300 has a frag warhead

Not even consistent w that crater.

[Kennah]

57. 200 to 300 lb warheads in S300s

[Chuuku Davis]

73. Right now I will bet $100 it is not an S-300

Russkies have been firing S-300s in ground attack mode for 3 months.
The craters are not that big.
Another $100 says it was a Kaliber.

[Kennah]

77. Unlikely the missile was fired by Russia --President Joe Biden

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

94. Biden said, 'from Russia"

He didn't say, by Russia.

[Kennah]

98. Correction noted. If this is still early, then why let that information slip?

Biden shared it intentionally. Russia didn't do it, but we're not ready to say that.

[DenaliDemocrat]

32. Fucking Putin is about to learn why Americans

Don’t get free health care…

[gay texan]

35. Yay!!!!!

Nuclear holocaust!!!

Woo hoo!








WTF is wrong with you people.....

[Stinky The Clown]

36. Who are "you people"?

[gay texan]

37. Really? N/t

[Stinky The Clown]

38. Really

You said it. At least own it.

Who are "you people"?

[Hav]

42. You people are the Dr Strangeloves on DU longing for WW3

Seems pretty obvious what the poster meant.

[Stinky The Clown]

43. Are you "the poster"s spokesperson?

Favoring action in opposition to war crimes and genocide is now a bad thing?

But, back to the question you chose to answer: name names.

[stopdiggin]

53. you started this OP

with a premise that immediate escalation was the only conceivable response. Without even waiting on input, deliberation or response on the part of the injured party. That seems pretty damned hair-trigger (and bellicose) to a lot of other 'observers' this evening. Sorry if you object to that characterization.
----- --- ------- ------

[Stinky The Clown]

63. Read the OP again. You're seeing what you want to see.

Sorry. Nuke Moscow Now would be in line with your interpretation.

Dealing with motherfuckers now is different.




And since you seem to be yet another spokesperson (what is it, four new?) for the one who started this subthread, about whom are you all speaking?

[stopdiggin]

68. DU is replete tonight with belligerent

voices calling for escalation. Whether it be, "bomb them back to .." Or, "NATO attacked, Article 5 !!" And those are the 'whom' to whom I, and others, are pushing back. (with some degree of incredulous, "WTF?" .)

These statements sound an awful lot like advocating for a wider conflict, with more players (and greater armaments?) brought into play. If you are not one of these 'whom' - then all due and sincere apologies. But I'll continue to speak out against those that I think are (thoughtlessly) promoting just such a message.

Take a look around the site tonight my friend. --- ----

[Stinky The Clown]

71. The "belligerence" is likely the result of a perceived unwillingness by our side to reign in a bully

[stopdiggin]

87. and the insistant push back stems from legitimate concern

over what 'reign in a bully' means in clear sighted real world terms.

Are you in fact advocating for escalation - i.e., more players, more arms, more shooting? If not, what new measures of 'willingness' do you propose to 'reign in a bully?"

[wnylib]

88. More likely the result of an absence of

rational thought when anger floods the brain.

[BlackSkimmer]

106. "Rein."

[wnylib]

85. Isn't it customary to know first who the culprit is

and whether it was an intentional attack?

Also, there is a principle of proportionality. You don't escalate to WWIII deaths of millions in response to the deaths of two people which as yet might have been accidental.

But, it does give us an reason to give Poland and Ukraine all the air cover planes that they ask for.

[gay texan]

45. Youre the OP, figure it out. Extrapolate....

WAR BABY!!!! WOO HOO!!!

Let's pummel them (in my best Buford T Justice voice) sumbitches!!!!

As someone who deals with this precise stuff in the defense industry on a daily basis, Russian made junk is wildly unreliable if not maintained every damn day. One stray radar signal or optical tracking malfunction and the missile will go haywire. Combine that with untrained users, and the fun only multiplies.

Every single former Soviet bloc nation has Russian equipment, in various states of functionality. Shit happens. We have zero idea where the hell it came from at this present time.

As a resident of this planet, WW3 is the last option....

[MarineCombatEngineer]

46. THANK YOU!!!!!!

This blood lust baffles me on a liberal website.

[gay texan]

48. Anytime! n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Hahahahaha

to me, a clown, from you, a Combat guy.

geeezus.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

64. Maybe, just maybe because of my combat experience,

I would rather wait for the conclusion of the investigation before taking any action that can cause the end of the world.

I guess I just kinda silly that way.

[Stinky The Clown]

66. Reread the WORDS in the OP, not your interpretation of what you thin it says

then think

then respond if you wish

[MarineCombatEngineer]

67. I did, this is what you wrote"

0. Poland attacked. 4 Killed. Read NATO Article 5. We can NOT keep waiting to deal with MOTHERFUCKERS

That indicates to me that you want immediate action, if I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

Just what do you mean by the bolded words?

[Stinky The Clown]

69. The operative words are "deal with"

How do you interpret that?

What does "deal with" mean to you?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

70. To me, deal with it in this situation means retaliating militarily against the Russians,

like I said, if I'm wrong then I will admit it and apologize to you.

[Stinky The Clown]

72. I can only speak for me. You're neither right nor wrong.

Invade Russia? Uh . . . . no.

Fly surgical drone strikes on missile batteries, even if in Russia? Maybe.

Uparmor the Ukrainians with anything and everything short of nukes? Yes.

Cyber attacks? Sure, why not?



But see, here's the thing. I have no idea what's appropriate.

I do know standing by while Putin commits war crimes and genocide is unacceptable.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

76. Oki, then I'm a man of my word and I do apologize for jumping to the conclusion

that you were suggesting immediate military action before the investigation was complete.

Invade Russia? You are absolutely correct...Uh....no.

Fly surgical drone strikes if it's proven that Russia fired the missile? It depends on whether or not this was done with malice if Russia did do this.

Uparmor the Ukrainians with anything and everything short of nukes? Absolutely.

Cyber attacks? Hell yeah, they've been doing it to us for years and years, so let's give it right back to them in spades.

I too have no idea what's appropriate, that's for far smarter people than me, like Pres. Biden and his cabinet and military leaders.

[wnylib]

90. You mentioned ""deal with it" in conjunction

with a reference to Article 5.

[AngryOldDem]

50. +1

We need to be DAMN sure what EXACTLY happened before we escalate this to a point of no return.

Edit — Skipping Article 4 straight to 5? Uh, no.

[Sympthsical]

104. The election's over

We're bored!

Bring on the apocalypse!

Or Dancing With the Stars.

Whichever. The twelve hours a day spent in front of the tv doesn't fill itself, ya know.

[gay texan]

108. Good one, lol!!! N/T

[Initech]

41. Putin and his troll army need to be bombed back to the stone ages!

His Nazi buddy Medvedev can go with him too!

[Polybius]

44. When did we become the war Party?

I knew neo-cons were going extinct, but didn't know that we had to pick up their positions.

[LisaL]

47. Well it doesn't appear it came from Russia.

Whom do you propose to attack now?

[stopdiggin]

55. oopsie.

as Gilda Radner would have it, " Nevermind!"

[Wonder Why]

56. I hope everyone who is for war has already enlisted in the military because

war is the ultimate in killing of human beings. While there is a point beyond which democracies can be pushed, pushing for war is as dangerous as it gets.

At this point, I see a lot of laughable posts about what our weapons can do and what theirs supposedly did. ALL weapons are fallible. Mistakes by designers. Mistakes by builders. Mistakes by those firing them. It goes from the simplest of bullets to the most complicated and best made missiles.

Then there is an issue that a missile headed to one place is knocked off course by a defensive weapon. No blame on the defenders but if the missile goes awry, it is not intentional attack elsewhere although the act of firing the missile can be a war crime as it is in Russia's invasion. Is the hitting of the wrong target of itself intentional?

And what if it turns out to be a Ukranian defensive weapon that itself went awry?

Let's wait and see.

Lets do only what really has to be done. Let the expansion of war be the last step.

Take it from a veteran who abhors war unless it is the only alternative to what has already been - a war of attrition between an innocent country and a predator. At this point our president is doing the right thing. Russia is paying a high price for its aggression and Putin is paying an even higher one.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

65. +100. nt

[usonian]

80. The horrible turn that wars have taken, I wonder if a soldier isn't safer than a civilian.

I’d re-up but I’m almost 74.

[wnylib]

92. +1,000,000

[brooklynite]

60. If you're demanding a response, will you be heading to the recruiting office?

Or is that someone else's job (and risk)?

[Celerity]

75. Poland blast may not be due to missile fired from Russia, Biden says

https://www.reuters.com/world/global-leaders-hold-emergency-meeting-over-poland-deaths-2022-11-16/

BALI, Nov 16 (Reuters) - The United States and its NATO allies are investigating the blast that killed two people in Poland, but early information suggests it may not have been caused by a missile fired from Russia, U.S. President Joe Biden said.

Biden spoke after global leaders gathered for the G20 meeting in Bali, Indonesia, held an emergency meeting on Wednesday after a deadly explosion in Przewodow, a village in eastern Poland near the border with Ukraine. Ukraine and Polish authorities said the explosions, which killed two people, were caused by Russian-made missiles.

Asked whether it was too early to say that any missile was fired from Russia, Biden said that the trajectory suggested otherwise.

"There is preliminary information that contests that," he told reporters. "I don't want to say that until we completely investigate it but it is unlikely ... that it was fired from Russia, but we'll see." The U.S. and NATO countries would fully investigate before acting, he added.

snip

[Dorian Gray]

107. People need to learn

To be less reactive and wait for real information to be disseminated.

There are reports that it was Ukrainian anti-missile tech. Or sucks and those lives are lost. But escalating a war and/or aggressions because of supposition is extremely irresponsible.

We want steady and staid leadership. Okay knfeayeduk we have that currently. We didn’t two years ago.

[Kennah]

93. Serving up a nuclear war doesn't make for good politics

[jmowreader]

99. Having studied Russian tactical equipment extensively...

I will declare that the best performance you’re going to get out of most of that crap is to have it land in the general direction of where you pointed it. Plus it’s employed by people who have been in the army all day, which further degrades whatever effectiveness it has.

However, they have a very accurate map coordinate system. The Gauss-Krasovskii mapping system the Russians use is better than ours.

I REALLY don’t want to start a nuclear war over one stray round.

[Model35mech]

102. Please, let's get an examination of the evidence

before we rush to act on Article 5.

When it's known what happened rational steps can be taken as needed to lower the risk and protect Poland.

[AngryOldDem]

103. Well, aren't we glad we waited?

Instead of

[BlackSkimmer]

105. Wow, this didn't age well.

So glad we have wiser heads in positions of authority.

[Celerity]

109. This aged well.

[AngryOldDem]

110. Actually, it kinda did.

It showed the utter lunacy and danger of jumping to conclusions before anybody definitively knew what happened. Even if Russia was responsible, a sane and measured response was still necessary. A good lesson in these times.

Makes me appreciate the cooler heads who are actually in charge of these things.

[Celerity]

111. Put that way I will agree!