There's an injunction prohibiting DOJ from using unclassified records seized at MAL

[bigtree]

emptywheel @emptywheel 17m
There is an injunction prohibiting DOJ (on threat of contempt and losing the evidence) from using the unclassified records seized at MAL in any investigation of Trump. DOJ would use those docs to show Trump interspersed at least 3 classified docs w/others.

emptywheel @emptywheel
The very SOONEST that injunction will be lifted is on November 22 when the 11th Circuit, on quick turnaround, will hear the case. That would put an indictment sometime in December at the earliest, best case scenario.

There are still known steps that have to or probably will happen before Trump would be indicted in any of the known criminal investigations into him. For those demanding proof of life from the DOJ investigations into Trump, you need look no further than the public record to find that proof of life. The public record easily explains both what DOJ has been doing in the Trump investigations, and why there is likely to be at least a several month delay before any charges can be brought.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/11/14/merrick-garland-hasnt-done-the-specific-thing-you-want-because-doj-has-been-busy-doing-things-they-have-to-do-first/

Link to tweet

[onecaliberal]

1. It didn't take two years for them to lock up reality winner.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. No comparison

[emulatorloo]

4. This case is a tad more complicated than that one. Maybe you should read emptywheel's full thread.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

5. If you wanted respect for Reality Winner you would capitalize her name. She is a person. . . nt

[bigtree]

6. wow

...sombody alert the DOJ to drop their rejections in court against the Trump defense motions and proceed to indict without all of the evidence they need, because Reality Winner.

[onecaliberal]

7. Wow, You put a lot of words in my mouth. Your post is ALL your own assumption.

[emulatorloo]

16. Nope. Op contains a reasoned discussion from Emptywheel based on the facts of what DOJ is doing.

[bigtree]

31. I normally do that in response to strawman arguments

...I just go ahead and make my case, instead of attempting to respond to what I consider dubious or a non sequitur.

[onecaliberal]

37. Thanks for mansplaining your own assumptions about a one sentence comment I made as an

Last edited Thu Nov 17, 2022, 01:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Observation. I never said anything you’re accusing me of but go ahead and argue with yourself in the dust bin.

[bigtree]

40. the only place gender entered into this discussion was your slur against me

...that's one too many strawmen.

Out.

[niyad]

32. It took almost two years to investigate Watergate.

[former9thward]

43. The DOJ and the President were the same party as those indicted.

It stands to reason the Watergate investigation went slow because they were in effect investigating themselves. That is not the case here.

[grantcart]

45. Apples vs pineapples

They both have the word apple in it but that is where the similarity ends


Both are about classified documents but that is where the similarity ends.

RW was prosecuted not for having CD but having them and disseminating them, which she did to a news source that published them

TFG is being investigated for illegal custodial issues with zero evidence of dissemination.

[emulatorloo]

2. Rec to get it to the greatest page. The full thread is very interesting.

[barbtries]

8. so basically,

that judge appointed by trump has really paid off for him.

[Fiendish Thingy]

11. Only temporarily.

[barbtries]

13. i hope you're right, i really do.

not optimistic at the moment. mostly just pissed

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. The appeal on the MAL docs should be resolved in a month or two

We should know soon after that.

The January 6 crimes will likely take a while longer because of all the minions involved.

[barbtries]

17. you know it's the whole thing.

he was committing crimes constantly his entire life. in office, out of office, he's a fucking criminal. he's never had to suffer the consequences. ever. it's cumulative. i appreciate your words of sanity but it doesn't remove this block of rage inside me that we keep on having to deal with this FUCK. he should have been long gone a long time ago. i'm mad at my country, i'm mad at the media, i'm mad at the state i live in (NC, total fuckwads)...i'm just mad.

frustration. aargh

[Fiendish Thingy]

25. He may have been criming his entire life, but only recently have the feds investigated

Previously, TFG was only investigated by the Manhattan DA’s , who ultimately walked away from prosecution. Otherwise, he has only been troubled by civil suits. His past previous crimes have mostly been “local” offences, not federal (money laundering is the one notable exception).

All that has changed now, as he is under multiple federal criminal investigations, as well as by the states of NY and Fulton co. GA. That’s never happened to him before.

I’m not certain of any particular outcome, whether it be conviction or no charges ever being filed, but I think the odds of the latter have decreased significantly with each passing day.

[Joinfortmill]

42. Yup, looking at you New York.

[marieo1]

47. Total Agreement

I agree 100%, why isn't he is prison? Who is paying his way? Who is supporting him, probably Putin!!! lol

[emulatorloo]

18. 11th circuit has already overruled Cannon once for the DOJ. Likely they will do so again.

If you remember a there is a Trump judge on the 11th circuit panel who overruled her.

[barbtries]

19. yet here we are, months later.

she should have recused. she should have been reversed and thrown out of court. It's just WRONG. but it doesn't matter. her decision was total crap and it doesn't matter. so we wait. again. then the next thing you know it'll be that he's running for office, then after that it'll be that he's the president of the united states. and we wait and we wait.

justice delayed is justice denied. I get it. but i ain't happy about it.

[emulatorloo]

22. The DOJ's appeal to the 11th circuit is to get rid of everything she did. You'll get your wish soon

[barbtries]

36. I'll celebrate then,

and shut up about it for now lol

[Jay25]

29. +++

Tired of playing hurry up and wait. It's disheartening watching him continuously skate the law. It seems he's not the bumbling idiot that he portrays.

[SergeStorms]

41. He is a bumbling idiot.

He just had the Federalist Society tell him which judges appoint to where, and he has a few lawyers who know what they're doing - to a point.

They're rapidly running out of dodges for their loose-lipped client, and the DOJ is there, waiting patiently, for the pendulum of law to swing in their direction.

These protections for Trump - or for any client who has the money - are guaranteed by the Constitution. However, they have a terminus, which Trump is rapidly approaching. 😁

[onenote]

48. I missed when DOJ asked her to recuse?

And exactly what grounds would they have cited in seeking her recusal? That she was appointed by Trump? By that line of reasoning, Judge Middlebrooks, who was appointed by Bill Clinton, should've recused himself from handling Trump's suit against Hillary Clinton.

[Fiendish Thingy]

9. Thanks for re-exposing this information

Some folks still refuse to accept the reality of the situation, even when it could mean that indictments could be handed down in the next couple of months.

[Ohio Joe]

10. Emptywheel is a great source for reality

I approve

[KPN]

21. I see what you did there.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

23. Yes, they get it. The Law is not Twitter-friendly, cause it's complicated, not built for Stupid.

[Captain Zero]

27. And stump has GAMED the legal system for years

It's his only expertise.

[SheltieLover]

12. Kicking for visibility

[CatWoman]

15. K; R

[KPN]

20. Good stuff. I tend to get impatient; this by helps

was helpful in that regard … and very encouraging.

[Orrex]

24. Here's the difference:

If Garland brings an indictment that leads to successful prosecution and jail time for Trump, then the doubters and naysayers will say “whew, I’m glad I was wrong.”

But if Trump gets off with zero or minimal consequences, the cheerleaders will shrug and say “oh well, that’s The System.”

[Fiendish Thingy]

26. Kind of a glass half-full, half-empty situation.

[bigtree]

28. pointing out facts isn't cheerleading

...and complaining that DOJ won't indict now, while they're presently in court fighting against defense motions, would suggest a deeply flawed understanding of the legal processes in this case.

[Orrex]

55. It's not the act; it's the attitude

If they could somehow find it within themselves to hold off on the belittling, the insults, and the condescension, then maybe others would take them seriously, rather than dismissing them as tireless water carriers.

[Scrivener7]

30. You guys sure love this emptywheel article. It must be the 7th time I've seen it posted.

I know, I know, because emptywheel is the gospel (why, I'm not sure) and all is well and those who are concerned just don't get it.

But those of us who are concerned are fully aware that the DOJ has stuff to do before the indictment. That's been made painfully obvious by the conspicuous lack of indictment.

Problem as we see it, and which keeps being proven, is that as soon as the DOJ is done with this stuff, there will be that stuff, and then other stuff after that, for years and years, (or I should say "more years and years" ) and all the while we will be admonished about crossing t's and dotting i's and patient grasshoppers.

[bigtree]

33. I'd wager that you're one of a few DOJ critics that recognizes it

...notice that I didn't claim you'd actually read it.

[Scrivener7]

35. Not sure what this is supposed to mean. I guess your claims about my reading and

your thoughts about others noticing are highly significant somewhere...?

[bigtree]

39. okay. whatever. Your little dig was superior.

...seriously, though, Scrivener7, 'you guys' don't actually come to these discussions with a lot of actual knowledge of what's actually occurring in these cases. It's all angst and innenendo balled up in misplaced resentment against the very folks doing the work of bringing Trump to court and obtaining a conviction.

How many cases have we watched in the past few years that have gone off the rails because of an inadequate prosecution, rushed to court? How many indictments cheered like it was Bastille Day, only to have the trials end in aquittal?

Tell us please how posting facts about the actual proceedings should be the subject of ridicule, while these cynical swipes at DOJ based on mostly uninformed angst aren't dispositive of... anything.

[Scrivener7]

44. Glad you acknowledged that your "little dig" came first. But tell me truthfully: do you really

have no cynicism?

After all the posts of facts of the proceedings about the obstruction of justice that was found during the Mueller investigation?

After all the posts of facts about the proceedings about trying to get Ukraine to interfere in the 2020 election?

After all the posts of facts about the proceedings about his obstructing the investigation into his attempt to coerce Ukraine to interfere?

After all the posts of facts about all the probably thousands of violations of the Hatch Act?

After all the posts of facts about the actual proceedings about Cambridge Analytica?

After all the posts of facts about the actual proceedings about the criminal tax case against him in New York?

After all the posts of facts about the actual proceedings about the Carroll rape case?

After all the posts of facts about the actual proceedings about Mary Trump's case against him?

After all the posts of facts about the actual proceedings about ALL of the MANY campaign finance crimes?

After all the posts of facts about the actual proceedings about the inauguration committee crimes?

I could make this list a hundred pages long.

Cynical? Yes. What "we" come to these discussions with is a recollection of every other investigation that has ever been conducted into tfg, and an observation that these current investigations are following a similar pattern of delay, delay, delay. So yes, I am cynical based on history. But my swipes are not at the DOJ, they are at yet another years' long investigation in this long, long, long, long list.

I come by that cynicism quite honestly. And another article from emptywheel posted umpteen time and detailing the absolutely legitimate reasons for more of that delay, delay, delay does not change my cynicism.

I believe, in the end, we will see what we always see. These delays will be followed by more delays, and after those will be still more. And if there is an end product, it will be a watered down slap on the wrist that is not commensurate with ALL the crimes the man has committed for years in full view of all of us.

[bigtree]

51. there's an actual investigation that reaches into the Trump WH, including the president

...it's experiencing predictable delays due to defense motions, challenges, and appeals.

Those challenges and appeals are not scheduled according to DOJ's will and whim, but on the orders of the judges presiding over those filings.

When those challenges and appeals are disposed of, in court, we'll get a clearer picture of DOJ's resolve. Right now, their resolve to prosecute is more than evident in their responses, in court, to those challenges and appeals.

That's the answer to critics who insist DOL is slacking because they haven't indicted Trump yet; the answer to people who seem more interested in casting the deliberate (albeit legal) obstructive defenses (and delays) from Trump's lawyers as some DOJ fault rather than the defendant's prerogative which DOJ is aggressively fighting against, in court.

(you can probably tell I'm not going to debate the non sequitur(s) and angst in your response, but just reiterate the points in my op)

[Scrivener7]

56. SMH. The angst and non sequiturs? Really? How about we move the tone of this to one of a

discussion between two people who respect each other and who agree the vast majority of the time, but on this we disagree. That will be my goal, at least.

And as it turns out we agree on one fundamental thing: The delays are not the work of the DOJ. They are, as you say, deliberate obstructed defenses from Trump's lawyers. I completely agree with that.

But for me, therein lies the problem.

Roy Cohn taught Trump this tactic 40 years ago. It has always worked for him. He uses our legal system against us.

He has used the delay and obstruct tactic so successfully that he has been able to commit crimes about as often as he exhales. He has never faced a consequence apart from a few settlements that don't amount to more than perfectly acceptable costs of doing the businesses that earned tens or hundreds of times the amounts of the settlements.

The person who will bring him down is the person who figures out a way around his use of this delay and obstruct tactic. But within our legal system, that is probably not even possible. And Garland, like everyone else, has gotten caught in the quagmire of the delays and obstructions.

I disagree with you that the resolution of these issues will show the resolve of the DOJ. I'm sure the DOJ is perfectly well resolved. But the indications right now are that Garland is not the guy who has figured out how to stop him from using our legal system against us. I believe the resolution of these issues will bring another spate of issues.

But we will see. When this round is disposed of, either there is an indictment or there is another spate of delays and objections to dispose of.

[bigtree]

62. you talk about 'the indications' of Garland like it's evident somewhere

...aside from the nebulousness of that characterization, tell us what those indications are.

Not just angst, which is how I view nonfactual complaints about DOJ, but something actually evident in what Garland has done or said.

[Scrivener7]

63. Sigh. OK. Hold onto your insistence on "angst" and "nonfactual complaints."

And repost the emptywheel article that actually proves my point a few more times.

I guess we're done, huh?

[onenote]

50. Thank you for pointing out that indictment is not the endgame.

DOJ isn't going to -- and shouldn't -- seek an indictment unless they feel very strongly that they have a winnable case. And they know things that impact that assessment that no one on the outside of the DOJ does, or can, know. Getting an indictment against Trump and then losing the case would be an unimaginably terrible outcome.

[Scrivener7]

57. Then what IS the endgame?

[onenote]

58. Guilty verdict, of course.

[Scrivener7]

59. How do you get a guilty verdict without an indictment?

[onenote]

61. You don't. But you don't indict unless you feel you have a very strong case.

Lots of posters complaining about Garland focus on the lack on indictment without considering the fact that while they may believe there is enough not only to indict but also convict, they actually don't have the information, or experience in assessing these types of issues, as DOJ. They just assume indictment will inevitably result in conviction.

[we can do it]

64. 7 times today? Because the tweet is from today.

[Scrivener7]

65. The article has been around a few days and posted here often.

[malaise]

34. K & R

Wpn't be long - net Wednesday would be freaking perfect

[Raven123]

38. Except post. Thank you.

[bpj62]

46. Two years?

Please correct me if I am wrong but the Biden Administration took office on January 20. 2021. Merrick Garlsnd was not confirmed as Attorney General until March 10, 2021 because Senate Republicans attempted to delay the vote on his confirmation. I bring this up because multiple people on this website are constantly quoted as saying that the Justice Department has had two years to charge and convict Trump. By my math the Biden Administration has been in charge for less than two years and the Attorney General has been in his position for an even shorter period of time.

Indictments take time and if you are going to indict a former President you better make damn sure that you get it right because if you miss you will never get another chance at it. I want Trump to be indicted and convicted just as much as the next person here on DU but it does us no good when we are not factual with the time frames.

[CatWoman]

49. it does get tiresome, doesn't it

and just like clockwork those posts constantly pop up spouting the same tired BS.

[GenXer47]

52. silly founders thought impeachment

would be a no-brainer in a situation like this. Little did they know half of Congress would be filled with no brains.

[republianmushroom]

53. 22 months and counting DoJ

[CatWoman]

60. i'm quite sure they have noted your concern

[elleng]

54. Thank you.

DoJ has been doing things they have to do first.