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[WarGamer]

This message was self-deleted by its author (WarGamer) on Fri Dec 2, 2022, 11:16 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[spooky3]

1. Yes, but Tesla shares are still down to about half of what they

Were worth at peak.

[WarGamer]

4. That's nothing.

Comparing peak 2021 levels to today is entertaining.

Shopify... SHOP went from 169 to 40...

Upstart... UPST from 390 to 19

Affirm... AFRM from 164 to 14

TSLA is holding up well... compared to other big tech names.

[spooky3]

11. The peak this year was $402 per share. That's a precipitous drop.

Using your logic, if you think a 7.x% gain is large, how many more billions does that 50+% drop represent?

[spooky3]

14. It's not down 50% this year--nowhere close to that.

Do you see how 50% is a lot more than 7-8%?

[WarGamer]

15. Look at individual tickers.

Broadly the market is only down 10-20%...

But look at commonly held tickers, especially tech

[spooky3]

16. Look at the S&P 500, the Dow, or even NASDAQ. Nt

[WarGamer]

18. That's what I just wrote.

10-20% down.

Seriously you want me to go ticker by ticker and show how far down?

Some of the biggest names have been crushed.

[spooky3]

20. Come on, stop digging. Nt

[WarGamer]

21. AMZN, down nearly 50% from peak a year ago

Bottom line. Most of the market has been crushed.

And the list of big names in tech down 50% is long.

[A HERETIC I AM]

22. If you're a "full time daily trader" then you should know....

that your title line is misleading.

He didn't MAKE $2 billion today, his net worth increased by that only because the share price of Tesla increased. He could LOSE $4 billion tomorrow if the trend reverses.

If you trade regularly then you should know the difference between realized and unrealized gains.

He didn't make $2 billion any more than I did by buying a lottery ticket. You don't "make" fuck all till you sell.

[WarGamer]

23. I said that to reinforce my point that I believe that accumulated (hoarded) wealth should be taxed.

BTW, full time daily trader is a carefully selected phrase... because I'm not a day trader, which has a specific meaning. But I DO trade daily.

[OilemFirchen]

27. Likewise, the OP should know that if Musk had dumped 135 million shares...

he'd have lost a shit-ton before the trading was done - were it even possible (or legal, without notice).

[onenote]

57. The market is not really down "a lot" over the past year.

The day before Thanksgiving 2021, the Dow closed at 35183. it closed today at 34429. That's a drop of around 2 percent -- hardly a lot.

Moreover, one year ago the Dow was less than 1 percent higher than it is today.

If you look at the market at its highest over the past year -- in January 2022 -- it was 6.4 percent higher than today. A sizable difference by not exactly "crushed".

And don't forget that the market tanked two months ago, when it bottomed out at around 29,200. But since then it has recovered and is 18 percent higher than it was just two months ago (and, as noted less than 1 percent behind where it was a year ago).

[WarGamer]

58. what I wrote

And earlier I showed how LOTS Of big names are down 50%+ in 12 months


And don't forget... the market has rallied HARD the last few weeks

[onenote]

59. What you wrote was that the "entire" market was down "a LOT"

But it's not.

[WarGamer]

60. As of the end of September 2022... the DOW was down 35k to 28k

Yes it's improved the last couple months.

But this year... the market has been down a lot.

I think you're splitting hairs.

[edhopper]

17. But its

An Auto manufacturer, not a tech company.

[WarGamer]

19. Bears keep saying that... predicting it'll trade at $20/share like crappy old Ford and GM.

[edhopper]

24. If it doesn't grow like a Tech Company

Which it can only do by selling a lot more cars, it will do that.
At some point, the bears, who are dating it on their actual Financials, will be right.
Unless you see Tesla selling 10 million cars in 5 years?

[WarGamer]

25. The paprework doesn't lie...

It's completely overvalued.

But I won't touch puts with a 10' pole.

TSLA on track to sell 1.3M this year IIRC so in 5 years? 10 million??? Maybe close.

[edhopper]

29. That discounts

Every other car company in the EV market, some with better cars.

[WarGamer]

33. I have an i3 as a toy...

It's not modern...

But my wife wore out her Prius at nearly 300k miles (Pharma Rep) and we were shopping EV's... and today, nothing compares for the money.

A $48k-55k Model 3 is still head and shoulders above anything else PLUS each and EVERY EV out there not named Tesla has outrageous dealer mark ups.

Even a Bolt EUV is going for like 35k nowadays after the dealer jacks it up. And that's a golf cart compared to the Tesla.

The Big Three are years behind Tesla. The F150 EV can't tow... according to a online Auto Mag...

And NOTHING charges like a Supercharger. 200 miles in 15 minutes.

I will admit though... the Porsche Taycan and Mercedes EQS are really nice...

[edhopper]

36. Consumers Reports

Doesn't like them much anymore.
Picks cars like the Ford Mach higher.

[Celerity]

40. likely our next car

Porsche Taycan

We have a 2019 Cayenne E-Hybrid (non Turbo) atm

[WarGamer]

47. drool... enjoy it in good health, Celerity!!

[48656c6c6f20]

41. Eye spy with my little eye

A Loon fan.

[WarGamer]

48. I liked him MORE before he showed his political stripes.

[pimpbot]

34. I can only imagine how sucky the service will be with 10M cars on the road

I own two currently, and in the last year the service has gone to crap. Really believed in the company at first but between crack pot Elon and the dismal service I've given up. I'll keep these until something major happens and look elsewhere for my next vehicle. Plenty of competition ramping up.

Two terrible service examples:

1. Chip in windshield turned into a large crack. Had Tesla replace windshield. Service got black adhesive all over my interior, didn't seal the windshield properly, and scratched the hood. Had them redo and clean everything (5 days in shop). Still found issues and had them address while I sat there watching. Ironically a lady pulled in while I was chewing out the manager who had similar issues (found grease all over her dashboard). I've never had a problem with Safelite and will use them if it ever happens again.

2. Original Model S vehicles have had their supercharging software limited because of high rate of warranty replacements. It now takes over an hour to get 50% charge. Battery capacity is still within 10% of new, but Tesla decided no more fast charging for me. So instead of admitting the old style battery wasn't likely to make it through the 8 year warranty, they crippled the charging, on a 100k car. Makes me wonder what they'll do with 3s if/when they start seeing a lot of battery warranty claims.

[WarGamer]

35. Yeah quite a few issues...

We ended up putting ourselves on the waitlist for the new 2023 Prius Prime.

Should be near 60mpg and it's super practical for my wife who drives 40k+ miles a year.

Love Toyotas. Bulletproof.

[orthoclad]

53. RAV4 Prime PHEV AWD

PHEV=Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle
We got 56 mpg running in hybrid mode on a long trip with steep terrain, but we rarely buy gas. The battery is larger than a standard hybrid, and there's a charging port. Takes 4 hours for a full Level 2 charge at home, 42 mile range. We use it 90+% in electric mode. No charge? Runs as hybrid. We ignored gas prices this year.

Lithium's a conflict mineral. Musk crowed about the coup in Bolivia, which was about access to lithium deposits. I want to minimize lithium use, but hydrogen fuel cells aren't happening-yet. So I compromise with smaller batteries and occasional gasoline use.

I like Subaru a lot for reliability, durability, and bad weather, but their PHEV only gets 17 miles per charge.

Looking forward to the Aptera Solar Electric Vehicle due out soon: Aerodynamic low mass 2-seater with large cargo space, solar cells built in, standard charging port. Their online calculator estimated we would need 4 charges per year. Charge from the sun while you park or drive. Wheel hub motors like the Rivian truck, so low maintenance and few moving parts. Cheapest builds are under 30k. We should expect SEVs to take off soon.

[orthoclad]

54. It's a govt subsidy company

Car sales were based on the federal tax credit, and Tesla made a fortune selling emissions credits to companies building polluting cars.

[edhopper]

2. What happens

When Tesla starts trading like Car company instead of a Tech company at 1600X earnings?

[WarGamer]

6. Bears been saying that for years... keep getting burned.

[spooky3]

13. P/E ratio is about $61, but your point is well taken. Nt

[brooklynite]

3. President Biden doesn't agree.

[WarGamer]

5. I know...

You and I have discussed this before.

[Shermann]

7. US individual taxes are based on earnings, not holdings. This is fundamental and fitting.

Setting a threshold doesn't make it just the other guy's problem because now everybody has to demonstrate that they don't have the 10 million.

[WarGamer]

10. Thats' what the law says.

That means that Musk could literally never pay tax again.

He can just take out loans for his living expenses, live in a Tesla housing facility, drive company cars, fly company jets... have a company Platinum Card (or Black Card)

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that one person should be able to hoard billions or hundreds of billions of dollars and pay NOTHING.

EVER.

[Zeitghost]

32. Many personal perks

Are taxable. The Trump org is finding this out the hard way.

And when those loans come due and must be paid, the income used to pay them off is taxed.

You can't hoard untaxed dollars.

[orthoclad]

55. We need to fix this

Talk about hoarding wealth...
This tells the WHOLE story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Wealth_Inequality_-_v2.png

[BlueIdaho]

8. I'm confused...

I thought he bought all shares and took Tesla private. If so, why is it being publicly traded? Traded to whom?

[brooklynite]

9. No, he took TWITTER private.

[Dorian Gray]

26. He's also lost a hundred billion

you win some, you lose some.

It's all unrealized unless he sells it.

[WarGamer]

28. Like I said earlier...

Someone worth $200B can pay ZERO taxes for decades.

Literally ZERO.

Take out loans for living expenses. Live on Tesla premises, drive Tesla cars, fly Tesla jets... etc etc...

The only reason Musk pays ANY taxes is because he has to exercise his stock options and pay the tax.

[jimfields33]

31. Unless congress changes the tax laws, this isn't happening.

Quite frankly, I highly doubt it ever will.

[Igel]

37. Yeah.

Worth $200B at current valuations, but pay zero in income tax.

There's the rub.

My mother and father bought a house in 1996. A decade later it was worth a good $140k more. Then 2009. It reset to its 1996 value.

My mother wanted to know who stole her money. She had $300k in 2007, in late 2009 she had $160k. Somebody robbed her, clearly, and she called the police. They laughed. She called me. I tried to explain. Repeatedly. Over weeks.

In 2010 I realized the problem. My father killed himself in March of that year. I went as executor and my mother was a bit off. Calming her down when she came at me with a knife was the give-away. Checked medicine bottles, called doctor, said what happened, told the nice nurse that she came at me with a knife because I was evil and wanted to steal her house now that the bad man that was dead in the garage was dead (her husband of 50+ years), that she commuted from Arizona to Maryland every day for decades back in the '50s and '60s for her 8-hour shifts and that people were living in the AC vents, was 75 but born in and always had lived in the house built in 1996 and the nice doctor I was transferred to told me she had moderate-several fronto-temporal dementia and was delusional. And the doctor was very, very worried now that she was living alone, delusional.

So of course she didn't understand that an increase in valuation =/= taxable income.

Now, had my parents paid taxes on the $160 "earned income" from their house's appreciation, who'd have reimbursed them when the housing prices fell? The state and federal governments? Hell, my parents paid taxes on the "appraised value" for a few years when, you know, the state overbilled them on taxes because, in the end, the house wasn't worth $300k. That was a state-codified injustice.

Let's compound it by making it a federal injustice.

Federal and state law ignored the assets my mother and father had, as working class Boomers with a retirement fund, because they weren't taxed on "income" from unsold appeciated assets. A good thing. My mother and father both lost more than the average median income in 2009 from stock/bond problems. They never enjoyed the income until they sold the assets (upon which they were taxed). Nobody wants to argue that had they been taxed on appreciated value they should have been refunded that they should be reimbursed by state/fed government. (And, again, my mother was irate that somebody stole her money when her whatever-fund lost value--AIG went bust? Somebody stole the money. But, I explained, not AIG. AIG didn't sell her the stock, somebody else did--that person got her money, then it increased in value, then went bust. She earned no money from the increase, lost no money from the decrease. Just paper assets. Non-taxable, and justly, rightly, properly, so. Tax it? You're in junust, wrong, improper territory. Until it's money, it's not legal tender.)

[former9thward]

49. "pays ANY taxes"?

He paid $15 billion in taxes last year which was the highest payment by anyone in U.S. history.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html

[WarGamer]

50. I addressed this earlier. That's because he exercised options.

It's theoretically possible for someone to be worth 100B and pay ZERO taxes on a year to year basis.

[Zeitghost]

30. And how many billions in unrealized losses does he have piled up in Twitter

You can't tax theoretical wealth. Way too many problems.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. Tesla stock is now down about half from its high. . . nt

[Zeitghost]

45. I would suppose

The OP thinks he would be owed a refund from the IRS had he been force to pay taxes on wealth that never existed.

[acerlily]

38. But what are you making?

He is good at making money because he is working for his dreams. We can also make money, not quickly but for sure.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

39. You're not this acerlily, are you?

https://www.google.com/search?q=acerlily

https://read.cash/@acerlily

https://hackyourgut.com/participant/acerlily11/

https://solo.to/acerlily11

[Eliot Rosewater]

51. Good catch.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

52. Profile Information

Profile Information
Name: Lily Acer
Gender: Female
Hometown: NewYork
Home country: United States
Current location: New York
Member since: Thu Dec 1, 2022, 04:36 AM
Number of posts: 1

About Me
I am an explorer. By profession a former banking professional. Currently working as a financial advisor and a writer for a company. I have a great interest in finance.

[Carlitos Brigante]

56. So far his "dreams" seem to amount to making money, getting his

daddy to love him and impressing people who are "cooler" than him. Which is pretty much everyone but his army of Stans. What am I missing here?

[ProfessorGAC]

42. I Don't Disagree At All

It's easy to set a threshold such that it doesn't impact modest wealth folks, and retirement accounts are already protected.
I think I'd propose a higher number than you, though. Perhaps as high as 5%.

[Johnny2X2X]

43. There are ways to do it

You can tax these unrealized gains somehow, maybe by looking at how the gains are being leveraged.

We have creative accountants working for the government that know exactly how taxes are avoided, and they can figure out an appropriate way to levy taxes on the top .1%.

[Zeitghost]

46. And would you then

Allow them to write off unrealized losses?