Mon Dec 5, 2022, 11:02 PM

Ocelot II (105,519 posts)

On Grave-Dancing

Once again, a famous person who held distasteful political beliefs has passed away, and the grave-dancing has commenced. This time it was Kirstie Alley, an actress famous mostly for her long-standing role on Cheers. She was also an avowed conservative (although she withdrew her support for TFG in 2020 and announced she wouldn't vote for either candidate), and a Scientologist. Accordingly, some seem to think it's OK to celebrate her death because she's an "enemy."

Really?

My own criteria for acceptable grave-dancing (YMMV) upon the death of someone whose politics we deplore require considering the following factors:

1. Was the person currently causing a significant amount of social discord, suffering, or other trouble such that their demise will make a noticeable difference in people's lives? Or were they old adversaries who were no longer involved in any kind of public life; or people whose impact was merely annoying, but insignificant?

2. Did they have family, friends and/or associates who genuinely loved them, or were they so disagreeable or toxic that they won't be missed by anyone?

3. Did they ever do anything good or useful, irrespective of their politics; i.e., did they support good causes, donate generously to charities, or provide entertainment through their art, music, acting, etc.? Were they kind to children and animals? Or were they consistently greedy, uncharitable, mean, disinclined to help people or do anything to make their lives easier?

4. Did they contribute negatively or positively to public discourse; that is to say, did they express their opinions, however wrong-headed they might have seemed, courteously and rationally, or as insulting, hateful trolls?

Applying these criteria, I can't think of any reason to dance on Kirstie Alley's grave. She was just an actress with political opinions contrary to mine. I also didn't dance on the graves of John McCain, George H.W. and Barbara Bush, or Bob Dole. I didn't agree with them but I didn't hate them. In fact, the only graves I can anticipate dancing on, and might even do so with pleasure, would be Trump's and Putin's. They meet all of my negative criteria. As to other "enemies," I offer the wise words of Walt Whitman, from Leaves of Grass, written following the Civil War.

RECONCILIATION.

WORD over all, beautiful as the sky!
Beautiful that war, and all its deeds of carnage, must in
time be utterly lost;
That the hands of the sisters Death and Night, incessantly
softly wash again, and ever again, this soil'd world:
…For my enemy is dead—a man divine as myself is dead;
I look where he lies, white-faced and still, in the coffin—I
draw near;
I bend down and touch lightly with my lips the white face
in the coffin.

76 replies, 3284 views

Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread

Reply to this thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum

Replies to this discussion thread

76 replies	Author	Time	Post
On Grave-Dancing (Original post)	Ocelot II	Dec 5	OP
Well	48656c6c6f20	Dec 5	#1
I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment expressed here	Xavier Breath	Dec 5	#3
Thank you! well said	FirstLight	Dec 5	#2
Well, do any of those anti-us (bad ideology) deceased ones think about the hurt to others	UTUSN	Dec 5	#4
What did she do with those politics?	iemanja	Dec 6	#18
Same here. All I knew her for post-Cheers was gain tons of weight...	brush	Dec 6	#22
Now they are saying she is a scientologist	iemanja	Dec 6	#53
Wrong beliefs/policies have bad/wrong effects. Can't give you personal, specific details.	UTUSN	Dec 6	#24
Specific details about something I've never heard about?	iemanja	Dec 6	#51
Whew, that's so far a leap that I won't even take it personally	UTUSN	Dec 6	#56
This thread is in the context of grave dancing	iemanja	Dec 6	#75
Leaves of Grass is one of the best reads..	kentuck	Dec 5	#5
Playing Devil's advocate this time...	The Grand Illuminist	Dec 5	#6
Thanks for the link	AKwannabe	Dec 6	#26
Good commentary	DENVERPOPS	Dec 6	#28
Because for some people spreading shit is irresistable and keeping quiet is impossible.	milestogo	Dec 5	#7
I recall that she also had some terrible addiction issues.	GoCubsGo	Dec 5	#8
It was cocaine, she was in rehab, came out clean but found Scientology	debm55	Dec 6	#46
to have no charity at all	stopdiggin	Dec 5	#9
Beautifully stated.	Just A Box Of Rain	Dec 6	#55
Kirstie Alley has loved ones hurting right now.	summer_in_TX	Dec 5	#10
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I can't help but imagine ...	luv2fly	Dec 5	#11
On this site I truly only grave danced on one	newdayneeded	Dec 5	#12
Limbaugh met my negative criteria also.	Ocelot II	Dec 5	#13
It's hard to comprehend the damage rush did.	newdayneeded	Dec 6	#15
I'll save a spot on Rush's grave for you, flamenco?	Shellback Squid	Dec 6	#14
I had no idea that she was conservative	iemanja	Dec 6	#16
I'm not a fan of grave dancing either. The only people I'm ever relieved to hear they died...	chowder66	Dec 6	#17
On watering the grave?	sarcasmo	Dec 6	#19
I tend to agree w your well thought out post... A very, very few would be on my list...	electric_blue68	Dec 6	#20
I don't care.	Lunabell	Dec 6	#21
I don't really care, either.	ShazzieB	Dec 6	#31
I did a nice little dance after Herman Cain died of covid.	Lunabell	Dec 6	#32
In his case though, he never had the opportunity to get vaccinated (as it wasn't out yet)	Polybius	Dec 6	#45
I agree, she had no influece on people politically	JI7	Dec 6	#23
She did enough to get attention.	The Grand Illuminist	Dec 6	#47
Walt Whitman's poem is very moving -- and you are wise	Hekate	Dec 6	#25
I honestly don't care about Kirstie Alley's politics.	Initech	Dec 6	#27
She did try to downplay and give comfort.	The Grand Illuminist	Dec 6	#41
Thank you... nt	Raine	Dec 6	#29
❤️	littlemissmartypants	Dec 6	#30
Shocking	DET	Dec 6	#33
Even Mob bosses will show up to another Mob boss funeral that was their enemy.	Xolodno	Dec 6	#34
Some are calling it Karma	LeftInTX	Dec 6	#35
If Scientology is a reason for grave-dancing...	jmowreader	Dec 6	#36
She supported dump	Meowmee	Dec 6	#37
I agree. If you don't fight back against Fascism then you are a fascist.	Handler	Dec 6	#49
That has always been my opinion	Meowmee	Dec 6	#67
Actually, in October of 2020 she withdrew her endorsement of TFG.	Ocelot II	Dec 6	#54
Pointing out what she did and what she was is not hate or grave dancing	Meowmee	Dec 6	#66
I didn't even know she died.	BlackSkimmer	Dec 6	#38
One of the best things about threads like these...	luv2fly	Dec 6	#39
True dat.	BlackSkimmer	Dec 6	#42
I follow my mom's (RIP) lead	MissMillie	Dec 6	#40
You're a good person.	BlackSkimmer	Dec 6	#43
I'm as flawed and the next person	MissMillie	Dec 6	#44
Mine was the same.	BlackSkimmer	Dec 6	#50
My creed is "wish harm upon nobody"	AntivaxHunters	Dec 6	#48
Bust a move.	48656c6c6f20	Dec 6	#52
Is speaks volumes about someone who grave dances.	Niagara	Dec 6	#57
Yes. The Dead Can Do No Further Harm.	MineralMan	Dec 6	#58
With all due respect, they can.	Happy Hoosier	Dec 6	#63
She can do that no longer.	MineralMan	Dec 6	#65
My sentiments exactly. Life is too short to spend time rejoicing other people's deaths.	mn9driver	Dec 6	#59
Grave dancing has the same effect that 'thoughts and prayers' do	Torchlight	Dec 6	#60
Ain't gonna change the taste of mustard	JonAndKatePlusABird	Dec 6	#62
I don't generally grave dance... BUT....	Happy Hoosier	Dec 6	#61
Thank you	obamanut2012	Dec 6	#64
Maybe, since she had addiction issues, she fell subject to Scientology and MAGA. I may disagree with	debm55	Dec 6	#69
That's fine for you.	Happy Hoosier	Dec 6	#70
Another poster said she did not support Trump	iemanja	Dec 6	#76
Hate is a destructive emotion	Kaleva	Dec 6	#68
It's corrosive; it hurts you more than it hurts its target.	Ocelot II	Dec 6	#72
+1	Kaleva	Dec 6	#74
It's an easy way for people to re-direct their self-loathing and insecurity.	egduj	Dec 6	#71
Yes, that could be a possibility	Kaleva	Dec 6	#73

Response to Ocelot II (Original post)

Mon Dec 5, 2022, 11:03 PM

48656c6c6f20 (7,590 posts)

On Grave-Dancing

1. Well

3. I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment expressed here

2. Thank you! well said

4. Well, do any of those anti-us (bad ideology) deceased ones think about the hurt to others

18. What did she do with those politics?

22. Same here. All I knew her for post-Cheers was gain tons of weight...

53. Now they are saying she is a scientologist

24. Wrong beliefs/policies have bad/wrong effects. Can't give you personal, specific details.

51. Specific details about something I've never heard about?

56. Whew, that's so far a leap that I won't even take it personally

75. This thread is in the context of grave dancing

5. Leaves of Grass is one of the best reads..

6. Playing Devil's advocate this time...

26. Thanks for the link

28. Good commentary

7. Because for some people spreading shit is irresistable and keeping quiet is impossible.

8. I recall that she also had some terrible addiction issues.

46. It was cocaine, she was in rehab, came out clean but found Scientology

9. to have no charity at all

55. Beautifully stated.

10. Kirstie Alley has loved ones hurting right now.

11. Thank you for your thoughtful post. I can't help but imagine ...

12. On this site I truly only grave danced on one

13. Limbaugh met my negative criteria also.

15. It's hard to comprehend the damage rush did.

14. I'll save a spot on Rush's grave for you, flamenco?

16. I had no idea that she was conservative

17. I'm not a fan of grave dancing either. The only people I'm ever relieved to hear they died...

19. On watering the grave?

20. I tend to agree w your well thought out post... A very, very few would be on my list...

21. I don't care.

31. I don't really care, either.

32. I did a nice little dance after Herman Cain died of covid.

45. In his case though, he never had the opportunity to get vaccinated (as it wasn't out yet)

23. I agree, she had no influece on people politically

47. She did enough to get attention.

25. Walt Whitman's poem is very moving -- and you are wise

27. I honestly don't care about Kirstie Alley's politics.

41. She did try to downplay and give comfort.

29. Thank you... nt

30. ❤️

33. Shocking

34. Even Mob bosses will show up to another Mob boss funeral that was their enemy.

35. Some are calling it Karma

36. If Scientology is a reason for grave-dancing...

37. She supported dump

49. I agree. If you don't fight back against Fascism then you are a fascist.

67. That has always been my opinion

54. Actually, in October of 2020 she withdrew her endorsement of TFG.

66. Pointing out what she did and what she was is not hate or grave dancing

38. I didn't even know she died.

39. One of the best things about threads like these...

42. True dat.

40. I follow my mom's (RIP) lead

43. You're a good person.

44. I'm as flawed and the next person

50. Mine was the same.

48. My creed is "wish harm upon nobody"

52. Bust a move.

57. Is speaks volumes about someone who grave dances.

58. Yes. The Dead Can Do No Further Harm.

63. With all due respect, they can.

65. She can do that no longer.

59. My sentiments exactly. Life is too short to spend time rejoicing other people's deaths.

60. Grave dancing has the same effect that 'thoughts and prayers' do

62. Ain't gonna change the taste of mustard

61. I don't generally grave dance... BUT....

64. Thank you

69. Maybe, since she had addiction issues, she fell subject to Scientology and MAGA. I may disagree with

70. That's fine for you.

76. Another poster said she did not support Trump

68. Hate is a destructive emotion

72. It's corrosive; it hurts you more than it hurts its target.

74. +1

71. It's an easy way for people to re-direct their self-loathing and insecurity.

73. Yes, that could be a possibility