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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe empty top secret folders found in Trumps desk.
It was reported dozens of folders marked classified were found in the storage room and in Trumps desk. All of these folders were mixed in with thousands of other documents and other items. There was nothing organized about all these boxes of stolen documents. Trump is a hoarder.
Trumps response to the subpoena I felt was a little odd, strange. Perhaps when Trump was subpoenaed he went through the boxes in the storage room (that was also reported) because he had no idea what the hell was in those boxes. He took the ones mark classified to his office and discovered a bunch of them were empty. If that happened, it would explain Trumps strange behavior during this entire investigation.
If Trump had no idea where the secret documents were from the empty folders he would have realized he is in big trouble. He could not return them even if he wanted to.
By the way, it was beyond stupid for Trump to bring those secret documents to his office and just leave them there after you received a Grand Jury Subpoena. Trump is an idiot protected by an army of corrupt lawyers. Now he is losing his army of corrupt lawyers.
I still believe Trump is going to indicted in this investigation.
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cyclonefence
(5,151 posts)said that at least a portion of the empty folders were probably never permanent holders of documents. He said that when a portion of a top-secret file was taken from one office to another, a fresh, previously empty file folder was labeled top secret just for purposes of transport.
This sounds sensible to me, but just how many empty folders were found? Seems like you wouldn't need more than say five on hand for transport. I think Trump probably sold or bartered for the contents of most of them.
DENVERPOPS
(13,003 posts)is that his spawn daughter and her jerk Jared had already gone through them for stuff they could sell for themselves.
Jared went on one trip, paid by taxpayers of course. He flew down to the Saudi's with a brief case he left with some Saudi Prince, and returned to the U.S. by return flight with 150 million he needed to bail his ass out of a bad real estate situation and needed the money deparately to make a payment......
Over the next couple of weeks, it was reported that the head Saudi Prince had gone through his family and other Gov't employed people and "disappeared" many of them. Probably based on our Intel who was supporting him and who wasn't.....
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)Jared sifted through everything & took what he wanted. Not saying there weren't others who also had a peek & possibly lifted a few docs or took photos of them, but Jared had first dibs on all of it. He's gonna get away with it just like his FIL. If they were dems, they'd both be in jail right now. IOKIYAR
luvallpeeps
(1,286 posts)Do you think someone took them, or they’re just lost in the sauce?
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)I don't think Trump knows where the hell those documents are. He was just shoving shit into boxes for 4 years at the White House. He may have flushed, destroyed some of those documents and then threw the empty file into a box. Who knows. There is no way in hell Trump could remember what he threw in the boxes over the years.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Lost in the sauce.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)If Trump gave, sold those secret documents from the empty folders to someone. Why would he leave the empty folders laying around? That does not make sense. Trump is an idiot, a hoarder, a narcissist who cannot control himself.
Irish_Dem
(81,252 posts)
intheflow
(30,178 posts)Jared. He seems to. Be the only one smart enough to know the right buyer for the right information. Eric might have traded them for blow, I suppose.
Historic NY
(40,037 posts)Identifying from whence they came for filing purposes.
dutch777
(5,068 posts)Sure, Trump could have grabbed whatever he wanted while still in the WH but somehow that seems like attention to detail which he is not known for. There must have been an admin assistant of some type that kept the paper moving and would have some detailed knowledge of how things got to where they did. Even now, there must be things passing over Trumps desk about his businesses, his campaign, his schedule, on and on and someone other than Trump himself is likely managing that paper and info flow. Not that I am saying he is not ultimately responsible just that others helped this mess get this way.
Irish_Dem
(81,252 posts)For example, I worked in the health care field, and there were more laws, rules, procedures for patient record keeping than Trump had to follow.
And severe consequences for failure to comply, unlike Trump is experiencing.
machoneman
(4,128 posts)...person had to be given them back and taken away for safekeeping. WTF did TFG do to retain such docs?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)people who checked out the doc screaming? Let's just say that an apolitical type ( had to have been a couple in government) checked out a classified doc to show Dipshit. And say a procedure was followed where the person has to sign out the doc. Why aren't they saying publicly - " I tried 10 times to get it back. I called Mr X about it 10 times". ? I certainly would. But crickets. Isn't that odd? Even before this blew up, no one said anything.
Now I know I read that toward the end, staff just gave up trying to rope him in on docs. What I've wondered since day 1 - were all the classified docs from the period toward the end?
Genki Hikari
(1,766 posts)And we likely won't know, if the information is sensitive enough. You won't have the people responsible in the chain of custody or the investigation going to the press and saying, "Hey, this particular Top Secret doc wasn't returned." Not to the press or anyone else outside a need to know.
That's how TS works.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Supposedly hundreds of docs? Very hard to imagine. Especially with people who were worried about their own skin. And don't forget there was a pretty big window before feds got involved.
Genki Hikari
(1,766 posts)When the docs are classified. The people who handle them don't go to the press screaming about how they're missing. And the people they scream to who can do something about it don't go to the press, either.
We'll probably never know what was taken. Because we're not supposed to know. That's how classification works.
stopdiggin
(15,462 posts)that we've had numerous reports to the effect that Trump simply refused to follow any sort of protocol. Would also bet that specific incidents were reported through proper channels (as you said, other people had lives and careers at stake) - but then got 'buried' because - POTUS.
With the evidence we have at hand (meaning simply public reports) - I'm simply not buying the idea/story that this all transpired in the last few weeks of the administration. Nonsense. It was going on all the time - and it stems directly from a single man's arrogance in flouting the rules.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)have worked. Kelly implemented a process to control sensitive docs at WH, but then he left. And trump would literally scream at people who tried to get docs away from him.
But It still doesn't explain the origination side... the way people checked out docs to take to him. There must not have been good controls there either. Jeez guess all you had to do was say trump had it. Hopefully everyone else was honest . 
kentuck
(115,406 posts)He probably doesn't care.
Irish_Dem
(81,252 posts)Documents of value in terms of sale, bribery, revenge, or souvenirs of how "special" he is.
But yes, damage to the US, national security or military and intelligence agencies, he couldn't care less.
kentuck
(115,406 posts)They are all deplorable.
Irish_Dem
(81,252 posts)We have to face that reality.
DENVERPOPS
(13,003 posts)how much damage those documents could do in the wrong hands.??????????
Just like when Cheney outed Valarie Plame's husband as CIA in revenge for him not backing Cheney/Rumsfeld's bullshit about yellow pancake plutonium........I can only imagine that around the world, governments were immediately ending the lives of anyone in their administrations that ever had contact with Valarie Plame or her husband.....
Trump probably just gave intel away to Russia/Putin, but probably sold a ton to the Saudi's. Wouldn't a royal prince love to know all the intel on all of their neighboring countries and what their nuclear capabilities were, and where they were located. As well as anything about their military abilities, etc etc etc.......
In addition, just think about the far and long reaching effects on any country, especially our allies in NATO, ever trusting and/or sharing with our intelligence gathering community ANY of their information........ever again......
Irish_Dem
(81,252 posts)This comes from numerous recent interviews given by John Brennan, former head of the CIA.
The damage is incalculable.
He also believes there are more documents floating around.
There was considerable damage done by Trump and it is ongoing.
In addition to the damage to national security and the risk to the intelligence agencies and military,
our allies will no longer trust us and will refuse to share sensitive information.
GoCubsGo
(34,911 posts)It's a tired, old mobster tactic. Stupid criminals mix stolen goods in with other stuff, because they think everyone else is too stupid to see what they're doing. As for not knowing what happened to those missing documents, he very well may not know where they are, given the volume of stuff he stole. But, he's a compulsive liar, and he likely does know who else has them. Anything to try to save his own ass. And, yes. He's an idiot, as are most of the people with whom he surrounds himself. Thank goodness for that, or we'd be in MUCH bigger trouble than we are now.
judesedit
(4,592 posts)gab13by13
(32,318 posts)everyone believes he is a babbling idiot. He is the best con man in the history of con men.
The White House staff secretary was in charge of keeping track of the classified documents that Trump summoned to the Oval Office.
The guy quit on Dec. 18th, I believe because he saw where everything was headed. There was no one keeping track of the classified documents from the 18th on. Trump put Mark Meadows in charge. When we see Meadows indicted then we know that DOJ is getting serious. Meadows may fall on his sword like Weisselberg did. Trump is an evil genius the way he gets people to take the fall for him.
Brilliant.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Trump spent at least 50 years surrounding himself with corrupt lawyers. He learned to do a few smart things like not using e-mail, don't write anything down, never admit you did anything wrong. He was taught that by corrupt lawyers. That doesn't make him brilliant. Trump used his money handed from daddy to get people to follow him, to do things for him. If not for daddy Trump would be a manager at McDonald's and it would go bankrupt.
Trump would surround himself with corrupt people because he could get them to do things and they would not turn on him if they got caught. He gave them lots of money, gifts.
Trump has been a complete fuck up his entire life, Everything he touches goes all to hell and you call that brilliant. He constantly gets gets caught doing stupid shit and then he uses his money and corrupt lawyers to get out of it.
Trump winning the 2016 election was one of the greatest flukes in our history. He was a complete fuck up during that campaign. If not for Comey, Clinton would have won.
Trump crossed lines he has never crossed before on J6 and the stealing of secret documents. He has never committed crimes this serious. Lets see how brilliant he looks when he gets indicted.
gab13by13
(32,318 posts)she said that Donald has never been held accountable in his life and that he is not afraid of Jack Smith. He is the leader of the Republican party despite the fact that his candidates have been losing, that is brilliant. He will absolutely be in charge of the Magat House in January. Trump doesn't give his money away to anyone, never happened. He got the RNC to pay for his lawyers. Brilliant.
He got taxpayers to buy him new golf carts and then charged the Secret Service to use them. Brilliant.
He should never have been allowed to buy the DC Hotel, but he did. Then he sold it and made millions. Brilliant.
All of Trump's friends who were convicted never flipped on him, Roger Stone, Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Alan Weisselberg. Brilliant.
Even Merrick Garland represented Trump (the office) in the E. Jeanne Carroll defamation law suit. Imagine that, Trump convinced Garland that defaming Carroll was an official duty of the president. A district judge later disagreed but Garland's taking the case made it hard to prove otherwise on appeal. Brilliant.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Lawyers bailed him out his entire life. I have never seen anyone fail as much as Trump. I have never seen anyone as lucky as Trump. Trumps brain, what you describe as brilliant is, always has been, a room full of corrupt lawyers and henchmen.
Some of Trumps friends have turned on him, like Cohen. That is still ongoing. Trump lost the DC hotel because he was stupid, losing money. People who did not flip on him because they knew he would pardon them. Trump cannot pardon people now. Let's see how Trumps friends act when they are indicted for J6 and are facing many years in prison. What he did with golf carts does not make him brilliant. He is obsessed with making money, something he fails at all the time. This is a guy who failed at running casinos. He had his charity taken away from him. The list of failures, stupid mistakes, bad decisions is endless.
Now his Org has been convicted with 17 counts. Now this so called brilliant guy is being investigation for tax fraud, along with numerous other felonies he is being investigated for. Brilliant.
You give Trump way to much credit.
Genki Hikari
(1,766 posts)To lose money with a hotel you own near the White House--when you're the primary occupant of that White House. It was a cash cow waiting to be milked. A smart person would have made a fortune off that kind of opportunity, the kind that could be passed on to grandkids.
But we all know what he did there: All he saw was the $$$$ he was raking in day-to-day, and he had to get his grubby paws on as much of it as he could. He stuffed every bit of revenue into his bottomless pockets that he could, and never put any of it into supporting the business so that it could make him more money.
Always going to new lows to get what he wanted in the here and now, and zero thought about the future.
Textbook psychopath.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Genki Hikari
(1,766 posts)He's just not. He's a giant idiot about nearly everything worth knowing.
No, he's cunning. Like a shark. Sharks are really, really stupid, but they do know how to target prey and kill to eat. That, they're good at.
Same thing with that...thing.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)
Lonestarblue
(13,477 posts)He is Machiavellian in his manipulation of people around him and of events to enhance his own self image. He demanded total loyalty and to be presented in positive ways, often praising himself in the third person. Trump is not too stupid to understand the significance of top-secret intelligence that would have value to other countries, and thus monetary value to him after leaving the White House. He spent four years as president using every opportunity possible, including exorbitant rental rates for golf carts, to extort money from the government. Why would he have any honor about selling US secrets to the highest bidder?
We know from DOJ filings that some of those documents contained too-secret evaluations of another country’s nuclear capabilities. Trump, and Kushner, would immediately see the monetary value of those. He may have taken some presidential records simply as souvenirs, such as the Kim Jong Un letters, but he was clearly told by Cipollone that taking them was illegal. He cannot plead that he did not know. He simply wanted them, so he took them.
gab13by13
(32,318 posts)He said they are his but I don't think he ever said he took them.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Punishment for so damn much!
Genki Hikari
(1,766 posts)But he's not remotely brilliant. It's all reptilian-brained stuff with him, do what he has to to get through what's right in front of him. There is no strategy, no tactics; he's incapable of considering consequences because he never learns from the past.
Like all psychopaths, he has zero concept of past or future. He is the ultimate "live in the now" personality. The past and the future do not matter--only what he wants or needs to do to get through the here and now.
And he'll do whatever it takes to get through that moment in time. There is no low he won't sink to for that.
That's what makes him dangerous.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)
rubbersole
(11,222 posts)With putin's help he held the office of the most powerful man in the world. Brilliant only in his innate ability to make gullible people believe his bullshit and send a "billionaire" their money. My brother worships the pos. "Because he tells it like it is." What?
Captain Zero
(8,905 posts)Even when it's an IGNORANT position and then he is as STUBBORN as an 8 year old on insisting he is correct.
It's amazing how many people fall for that and ADMIRE IT.
Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)No more exhausting every legal angle to determine whether Trump's immunity comes from this nook or that cranny of American jurisprudence. There are no safeguards afforded the executive branch to permit this reckless behavior. And the repeated public confessions tell us all we need to know about Trump's culpability.
It's time, Merrick. It's time.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)But you are on a first name basis with him?
Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)The tone you take with other Democrats is exceptionally rude and unnecessary. It is your pattern to lash out in the most patronizing and haughty manner. I've seen it here time and time again.
I am quite aware of the fact that the Special Counsel will investigate the myriad crimes of Trump and Co. I also am aware that he will make recommendations to the DOJ based on his investigation.
My lament and others like me here on DU regarding the snail's pace of this process seem to comprise source material for your imperious behavior. I am frequently impressed with your knowledge but your conduct here is regrettable just as often.
triron
(22,240 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)You just refuse to admit the reflection in your mirror.
By the way, it was you that attacked me...and you proffered not a scintilla of fact in your post. Just go away.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)When someone makes a factual error and then uses it to urge a position on a contentious error, then, yes, the error needs to be corrected in clear certain terms.
I was sure I knew the point and was a bit astonished that someone (Democrat or otherwise) would make an error of blame like that, but just to be 100% sure I looked it up by way of an NYT article which did reveal to me a point I did not know: that Garland can squash a Smith indictment but must publicly state that he is doing so if he does.
I understand the frustration over the slow pace of investigations and indictments (or sometimes wait for). I share some of it myself.
But if positions were reversed I'd be grateful that I would now know enough to abandon laying blame on the wrong person because I could be more persuasive with more precise facts for ... I don't know, maybe one based on the clock ticking relentlessly to 2024 and to January 2023 new Congress (an issue that bothers me too).
Sorry if I am too sharp sometimes. I try to walk the line.
Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)I don't want to be the purveyor of misinformation and one would be within their rights to correct misstatements of fact.
Do consider that ostensibly we are all on the same side before hitting Post. I will always admit my mistakes but it helps when the person pointing them out does so gently. Peace.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)The legal architecture of this investigation has been a little confusing but it does no one any service to misinterpret it in a rant.
rubbersole
(11,222 posts)Garland is the final word.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)1. The SC has the power to call a grand jury to question witnesses and targets
2. The GJ has the power to indict
3. The AG has the right to veto, but he has to disclose it publicly.
Right?
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)On my next emotion-driven rant! 😉
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/18/us/politics/special-counsel-meaning-trump.html
If it doesn't show, pm me and I'll tell you how I read it.
Mr. Ected
(9,714 posts)It looks like it would be a great tool to understand though, so let me know how you read it.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)hold on as long as possible? Every day desantis doesn't run the better. Since he beats Biden in current polling. Like we are up shit creek if desantis gets nom.
Na, wouldn't make a difference. Dipshit will still run even if indicted. So yes, flipping back to indict now Garland
Genki Hikari
(1,766 posts)Grand juries do.
Pepsidog
(6,365 posts)Blues Heron
(8,837 posts)make it look like he was just randomly stuffing docs in boxes?
FakeNoose
(41,622 posts)Chump assumed those documents were all HIS and he never had to give them back to the US Government. In his mind, it didn't matter what folders they were in, he just lumped them together as he read them. We all know he's not much of a librarian, and I'm sure he had no system for categorizing the documents. He did have trusted office workers helping him (on the federal payroll) so maybe some of those aides can shed some light on this.
BumRushDaShow
(169,725 posts)is probably the most likely scenario. Not discounting some being squirreled away/taken by his staff - notably Kash Patel - or family, the rest is probably "loose" (out of their original cover folder which would be empty) and mixed in with other stuff not at the location where the empty folders were discovered.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)It has been reported Trump took documents to his bedroom. I can see Trump taking a folder marked classified to his bedroom. Reading the documents and then saying to himself, I don't like this. I don't agree with this. This makes me look bad.
He tears the document into pieces and flushes it down the toilet. The folder the document came in was not easily flushed. So Trump threw the empty folder into one of his hoarder boxes. People give Trump to much credit for being this cunning, deep thinking, calculating, organized, criminal. He is not. Trump has spent his entire life making stupid mistakes, decisions that lawyers have to get him out of.
BumRushDaShow
(169,725 posts)But I expect what had been received, may have been or most likely was a "copy", i.e., a photocopy of an original paper document or print-out copy of an electronic file, and any original source material is still being maintained by the document owner agency and/or NARA per that agency's Record Control Schedule.
stopdiggin
(15,462 posts)(presenting the same security risks as originals) and the basic problem, as freedom points to, is that the 'head guy' was inherently slothful - and a breaker of rules and laws.
BumRushDaShow
(169,725 posts)The content is the key and it also underscored what was discussed way back at the beginning of that administration with respect to security clearances and how that whole process was not only undermined, but was essentially co-opted to essentially give unauthorized people, authorization to gain access.
By Maggie Haberman, Michael S. Schmidt, Adam Goldman and Annie Karni
Feb. 28, 2019
WASHINGTON — President Trump ordered his chief of staff to grant his son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner, a top-secret security clearance last year, overruling concerns flagged by intelligence officials and the White House’s top lawyer, four people briefed on the matter said.
Mr. Trump’s decision in May so troubled senior administration officials that at least one, the White House chief of staff at the time, John F. Kelly, wrote a contemporaneous internal memo about how he had been “ordered” to give Mr. Kushner the top-secret clearance. The White House counsel at the time, Donald F. McGahn II, also wrote an internal memo outlining the concerns that had been raised about Mr. Kushner — including by the C.I.A. — and how Mr. McGahn had recommended that he not be given a top-secret clearance.
The disclosure of the memos contradicts statements made by the president, who told The New York Times in January in an Oval Office interview that he had no role in his son-in-law receiving his clearance. In an interview with The Times in January, President Trump said he “was never involved” with the security clearance of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, which was reinstated last year despite concerns from intelligence officials.
Yeah. No, I don’t think I have the authority to do that. I’m not sure I do. But I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do it. Jared’s a good— I was — I was never involved with his security. I know that he, you know, just from reading, I know that there was issues back and forth about security for numerous people, actually. But I don’t want to get involved in that stuff.
(snip)
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/us/politics/jared-kushner-security-clearance.html
So any of these falsely-authorized individuals could have pulled these documents and who knows what the disposition was after that.
relayerbob
(7,428 posts)When they sold the documents, the folders themselves were either too conspicuous or too bulky for the courier, so they just took the material inside, put it into the diplomatic pouches and left the rest wherever it landed.
rubbersole
(11,222 posts)relayerbob
(7,428 posts)Depends on what the Russian or Saudi governments wanted the transaction to look like.
rubbersole
(11,222 posts)fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)relayerbob
(7,428 posts)The real question IMO, is why he/they didn't destroy the empty folders.
hay rick
(9,604 posts)Take whatever classified documents you can get your hands on and leave the evidence (empty folders!) in Trump's possession.
relayerbob
(7,428 posts)Good one
Captain Zero
(8,905 posts)The sting.
peggysue2
(12,531 posts)securing leverage in Trump's ongoing legal woes, his abject fear of criminal prosecution and secondly a source of income--trading national security secrets for cash and/or seeking protection from prospective buyers. Think Putin or some other international political goon willing to embrace the Orange One, and then scuttling him off to an undisclosed location.
Applying the "hoarder" label to Trump transforms the man's intentions into something less evil, less self-serving, less traitorous.
Donald Trump is the Benedict Arnold of our era. In fact, it's almost unfair to make the comparison because Arnold--before his betrayal--served with distinction in the Continental Army.
Donald Trump has never served anything or anyone beyond his own ego and skin. As for the word distinction? That's as foreign to the man as the word morality.