Relative just blasted one of the MAGA IRS talking points at me.

[CousinIT]

He exclaimed that "Biden is gonna make the IRS bigger than the US Marines!" "They're hiring 87,000 new agents!"

So I went a Googlin' and found that "IRS bigger than US Marines" bullshit on some RW MAGAt sites.

What they never mention in their knuckledragger, brain-dead screeds is that that 87,000 number is spread over 10 years, and is intended partially at least, to replace IRS agents who are set to retire during that time plus add more agents SINCE THE IRS HAS BEEN UNDERFUNDED AND UNDERSTAFFED FOR DECADES. And that 87,000 is not only agents. IRS employs technical support personnel, phone support workers, research personnel, administrative personnel, etc.

So the MAGAts have blown this up because the dumb knuckledraggers are afeared 'o the IRS. And that's about it. They do not cite ONE piece of data to back up their claims, they cannot link to any statistics, charts, or backup their claims with - anything. They counted Marines and added 87,000 to the current 70,000 or so IRS employees there are now and came up with about 150,000 or so. But...THAT'S. NOT. HOW. IT. WORKS. Some of those 70,000 will retire over the next 10 years. Probably quite a few of them. So part of that 87,000 will REPLACE them. So the MAGAtmath is...WRONG. Right on its face.

If you ask questions of IRS during tax time or any time of the year, you may end up on hold quite a while. WOULDN'T IT BE NICE to have more phone support personnel so you didn't have to sit on hold so long? Yea...well, some of those 87,000 will be those kind of people, not just mean skeery agents with guns coming to your door demanding back taxes (like MAGAts claim).

Now, this particular relative is a mathematician. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? A mathematician who CAN'T. DO. MATH. A college-educated idiot who believes whatever ignorant, mathematically-challenged bullshit he reads on MAGAt websites.

[Native]

1. Is he afraid he'll get caught?

[CousinIT]

4. That could be! I have no idea what his tax/financial sitch is..

...but he's awash in investments here and there so could be!

[Native]

9. When I hear the maggots in my neighborhood spout that crap, that's gonna be my first response.

"Are you afraid you'll get caught?" Every maggot relative I have is smart. And they never respond to facts that refute whatever bullshit they are spewing, so this will be my new tactic.

[TigressDem]

12. Not likely any of them have that kind of money.

The top 10% have 76% of the wealth in the country as of 2022.
AND a lot of them AVOID paying taxes.

The BOTTOM 50% have only 1%.

So anyone that might be slightly well off and worried...
The above 50% and below 90% who share 23% of the wealth of the country CAN RELAX.

THE GOAL of this increase is to go after those at the top who DON'T PAY ANY TAXES so it can be verified they are using valid deductions to get there.

IT IS ESTIMATED that the TOP 10% are avoiding 600 BILLION dollars in taxes every year.

Cutting social programs won't phase the deficit, but recovering 600 BILLION every year?
Yeah, that might help.

Going after anyone below the top 10% who may have made a mistake on their taxes? Not worth it.

[Native]

14. I'm in Florida. The maggots I know have lots of money.

[TigressDem]

24. We should make AUDIT BILLIONAIRES FIRST as our talking point.

I doubt many people who would have the time to talk with you are in top 10%

As of 2022 the bottom 90% have 24% of the wealth in the country.
The bottom 50% have 1% of that.

AUDITING BILLIONAIRES is the way to regain lost tax revenue.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap




THE REAL WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION has been from ALL OF US to the TOP 10%

[Native]

34. I've actually been hearing them use that talking point.

They haven't said "billionaires," but they have said the top 10%. They have also said that its not the middle and lower classes that aren't paying their taxes.

[TigressDem]

40. Everyone knows BILLIONAIRES are WAAAAY up there.

Top 10% is a bit more foggy.

Because the average MAGAT will NOT be a BILLIONAIRE so they can relax.

NO BOO HOOS for BILLIONAIRES.

CHECK THEIR TAX RETURNS.

If they are taking honest deductions, great. DEMS value honesty.

IF THEY ARE SCAMMING THE SYSTEM, they need to pay up.


WOULD it BE WONDERFUL if the ONE thing Americans could agree upon would be to get rid of the OLIGARCHY?

NO CEO should receive 3,000 times the pay of their workers.
No farmer would do that to the people laboring in THEIR fields.
They might not be able to afford $20 an hour, but they work beside the workers in their field and share as they are able.
RURAL VOTERS should be DEM voters.

ReTHUGS have gerrymandered so ALL WE CAN DO IS CONVERT people against the OLIGARCHY.

They can still vote for their RED guys, but if we can get the AVERAGE PERSON TO SEE the TRUTH and help US PUSH for EQUALITY in paying TAXES, then the US economy will SKYROCKET and everyone will be better off.

[Native]

47. I honestly don't think that's the problem.

It's the racism, etc. that fuels their fealty to all the rest. If a billionaire spews hateful rhetoric that feeds into their own hatred and fear, they will swear allegiance to that billionaire. You know that. The most famous one of all is Donald Trump.

One of my neighbors, just the other day, said, "Trump gave up the billionaire lifestyle for us." He's a nurse anesthetist and his spouse is an internist. He's also a rabid racist. And get this, he's Mexican and she's from South America.

"Billionaire" will never have the connotations for them that you are hoping for.

[TigressDem]

50. Then even tRUMP understands that the BILLIONAIRE lifestyle isn't as important as America.

SO EVEN IF he had "given up the Billionaire Lifestyle" (He did not) but even if he did, it shows that lifestyle is over the top and not what most people get to have.


IF the audit shows he actually paid proper taxes, took proper deductions like your neighbors probably do...
then FINE.

BUT there is a lot of evidence that says many at the top are NOT ONLY taking valid deductions, but hiding money and manipulating to get out of paying taxes all together.


People who work healing others and pay their fair share are heroes who need to stand up for TRUTH.

IF THE TRUTH IS that tRUMP is as benevolent as they think he is, fine.

IF THE TRUTH IS that tRUMP lied to them, they deserve better.


IF they have any desire to balance the budget and/or reduce the deficit, the MONEY is in getting back those unpaid taxes. 7 TRILLION over 10 years.

You can't balance the budget on the backs of the poor. The bottom 50% only have 1% of the wealth.
The top 10% have 76%.
Those a the top WHO CHEAT need to be held accountable.

You know that. I am preaching to the choir.


WHEN tRUMPS full taxes are reviewed, it will show he donated a MAX of 25% of his salary back to the government. Not 100% (Because that fact has already been published.)

$300,000 is STILL around half of what your wealthy neighbors make.
This ONE lie is equivalent to about half their take-home pay.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/07/11/fact-check-donald-trump-donates-salary-but-he-still-makes-money/5410134002/

According to news coverage and White House news releases, Trump has written checks equal to a quarter of his $400,000 annual salary every quarter to various government agencies:

2017

Q1 National Parks Service
Q2 Department of Education
Q3 Health and Human Services
Q4 Department of Transportation

2018

Q1 Department of Veterans Affairs
Q2 Small Business Administration
Q3 National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism
Q4 Department of Homeland Security

2019 

Q1 Department of Agriculture
Q2 U.S. Surgeon General’s Office
Q3 Office of the Assistant Secretary of Health
Q4 Department of Health and Human Services

Trump and his constituents have not yet announced where he will donate his salary for the first and second quarters of 2020.

[TigressDem]

23. Tell MAGATS to call their Congress Critters and ask that IRS audit Top 10% FIRST

Because that is where the UNPAID TAXES live.

Bottom 50% of US only have 1% of the wealth in country.
TOP 10% have 76% as of 2022.
https://financebuzz.com/us-net-worth-statistics

I've put more links down thread.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap

[Walleye]

2. It's gonna take at least 1000 agents just to audit Trump's taxes

Also without the IRS, there would be no pay for the Marines. Who do these people think pays the Marines’ salaries !

[CousinIT]

6. Yep. Math. Trump alone probably owes beaucoup back taxes State and Fed...

...and he's just one smarmy rich jerk. There are many. And we need skilled auditors at IRS to nab 'em. Our military, VA, etc is all funded by tax dollars.

[TigressDem]

25. SAY it with me... NO BOO HOOS FOR BILLIONAIRES

If THEY pay their fair share... we can start making progress on the deficit.



https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap

[packman]

3. Still waiting for my 2022 tax return

Filed in Feb., got a letter about a misplaced line in form in Aug., called yesterday and got through to an agent that said "be patient".

[CousinIT]

5. Yes. They are vastly understaffed.

This is one reason for the 87,000 new personnel! MAGAt relative doesn't grok that or believe it. "Nawww! They're hiring 87,000 new agents to audit everybody! And they're givin 'em GUNs too!" (Seriously they said that).

[TigressDem]

19. TAX GAP enforcement on top 1% could net 160 BILLION yearly

FROM 2021 Statistics

https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap

Today, the “tax gap”—the difference between taxes that are owed and collected—totals around $600 billion annually and will mean approximately $7 trillion of lost tax revenue over the next decade. The sheer magnitude of lost revenue is striking: it is equal to 3 percent of GDP, or all the income taxes paid by the lowest earning 90 percent of taxpayers.

[Native]

15. Remember when you could actually get the IRS on the phone?

[CousinIT]

28. I do! And millions do not do the online thing nor do they have CPAs

They still need phone support. Hell, sometimes the CPAs need to call the IRS, too.

[Native]

36. Yep, our tax guy never got through to the IRS when he did our taxes last go round.

He gave up.

[D_Master81]

7. Easy fodder for the low info fearful voter

As a tax preparer I get everything you say. If you have to talk to the IRS you literally call and put it on speaker while you work on something else until someone answers in an hour or so. And that’s the professional preparer line not the 1 most people use.

This meme and all the rest like it, the “87,000 agents will be armed” is so easy to sway people because most don’t look into it and even if they did most don’t understand how taxes and audits work. People have a predisposition to hate taxes so this plays right into that.

[TigressDem]

20. Just tell them the NEW agents will be auditing Top 10%

If they aren't in that category, they can relax.
If they are, they have you to make sure their return is good.
So no sweat either way.


https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap

[Native]

38. Ha, they'll just laugh in your face if you tell them that!

It doesn't matter what the facts are. It hasn't all along. They're fucking cultists.

[TigressDem]

42. SO make a deal... I WILL CALL MY CONGRESS CRITTERS AND IRS if you will too.

Tell them as Americans, WE THE PEOPLE should be in charge.

The Congress and the IRS are supposed to work FOR US.

LET'S BOTH make sure they are doing the job we elected them to do.

MAKING SURE BILLIONAIRES pay their fair share is the BEST way to bring down the deficit.

Average MAGAT is NOT a BILLIONAIRE.

Give them a new boogie man.

Because the OLIGARCHY isn't going to be good for ANYONE who wants to live in a free Republic.

[Native]

46. Even though it's a waste of my time, I do that anyway, and I'm in Florida.

I'm not a complainer who doesn't do anything about it, even when it falls on deaf ears. I've even been physically accosted because I've refused to keep my mouth shut when I'm confronted with their bullshit. My point is that facts and figures and rational thought don't make a difference to someone who is tied to the full shopping list of maggot ideals because of racist or misogynistic camaraderie. That's why I'm going to try a different tactic. I'm going to be putting them on the defensive whenever I can. In other words, instead of being the one to provide counter, factual arguments to their blithering bullshit, I'm going to be the one to call them on it, put them on the defensive, and make them prove their point. In the famous words of Michael Cohen, "Who says?"

[TigressDem]

51. Be safe.

Still "Can't get blood out of a turnip" is the old saying.

And their FAUX facts ... did they trace it to the source documents?

What do you mean?

If it's a Bill - what's the Bill Number? Who voted on it? What kind of pork got added?

[CousinIT]

30. Exactly. This person isn't (generally) an idiot but buys into the damn fearmongering

It's astounding. This is where critical thinking is absolutely required. All these claims and stats on the MAGA RW sites to a critical mind should only generate more questions such as: where do they get that number? Where is the citation for this data? How do they know this? IRS isn't just agents and people do retire and they've been understaffed for decades. It just...doesn't add up but it does feed the fear.

Ugh.

[Native]

43. Exactly. The facts don't matter to them.

[bucolic_frolic]

8. Find those cheating MAGAts

They deserve an audit

[TigressDem]

10. Not CAN'T - WON'T do math which as you said is Ironic.

AND let him know this is actually encouraging for the AVERAGE American.

The main reason that white collar crime goes UNprosecuted is because the top 10% have tons of ways to scam their way out of paying their fair share. That results in tax returns that when audited bring in 1000's of documents to prove deductions were valid.

And THOSE audits take a long time and multiple agents. SO with more agents, the RICH will get audited like the rest of US instead of just the easy pickings.

BUT because the top 10% are hiding and withholding taxes, WHEN they start getting audited more often, the US could see around 600 BILLION in recovered taxes, year after year. Because once they start getting caught and put away, then the RICH will have to pay or face the consequences.



ANOTHER MAGA maths that is plain stupid.

50% of the taxpayers pay 97% of the taxes. Yes. (NOTE: that is a 2020 Statistic)

Because 50% of the taxpayers have 97% of the money.
THE BOTTOM 50% ONLY HAS 3% of the money in US. SO THEY PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE.


2021 --- TOP 50% 98% of wealth BOTTOM 50% 2% of wealth
https://www.statista.com/chart/19635/wealth-distribution-percentiles-in-the-us/
10 percent of the richest people in the United States own almost 70 percent of the country’s total wealth. As of Q1 of 2021, the top 10 percent held 69.8 percent of total U.S. net worth (which is the value of all assets a person holds minus all their liabilities).

The top 1 percent held about half of that wealth – 32.1 percent, while the next 9 percent held approximately another half at 37.7 percent. The bottom 50 percent of U.S. residents only held 2 percent of all of U.S. wealth.


AND IN 2022?
The top ten percent of households own 76% of all wealth in the U.S.,
while the bottom 50% of households own just 1% of all wealth

https://financebuzz.com/us-net-worth-statistics

[CousinIT]

16. I'm bookmarking this. THANK YOU. n/t

[TigressDem]

21. Welcome! One more

It's where the numbers come for the 600 BILLION tax gap


https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap

[CousinIT]

26. Perfect. Also bookmarking! This is the kind of data/references that MAGAts can't cite..

...because they're just spreading fear-driven bullshit.

[TigressDem]

29. They are told to NOT TRUST GOOGLE

So they are only listening to ALT Knews information.

[CousinIT]

31. Yea. This is how we got promotion of horse dewormer to treat COVID

...and drinking bleach and anti-vaxxer info.

[Native]

48. Thanks for all your information. It's great to have it all in one place to refer to

should I ever have the opportunity to get someone to actually listen to it. Great thread to bookmark, and it's
all thanks to you.

[Tetrachloride]

11. I had a high math relative who was obstinate

on a couple of things. I asked my mom if we should try to educate him on some technology. She said no. i said, ok, just checking.

[TigressDem]

32. Give him links in 10 and 13 and have him follow the TAX GAP trail.

ASK him since the top 10% have 76% of the wealth in the US... SHOULD they pay their fair share or be allowed to go BEYOND legal tax deductions and AVOID their valid tax payments,
ROBBING America of 160 BILLION a year?

THAT IF the IRS audits BILLIONAIRES FIRST, just to make sure they are playing fair and not cheating the system...

IF that happens and US can recover 7 trillion in unpaid taxes over 10 years... WOULD THAT BE GOOD?

[Fullduplexxx]

13. Doesn't he think the " moochets and takers" should be forced to pay taxes?

[CousinIT]

17. Good question!

[Native]

18. We'll need that extra staff to handle payouts when the next pandemic hits.

Remember the hold up with our checks because the IRS was understaffed?

Not to mention whatever calamities are in store for us because of climate change.

[dreamland]

22. Thank you for the info.

Now I'll have some valid data to fight their MAGA ignorance.

[doc03]

27. I pay my taxes I don't care how many agents they hire. If it gets billionaires to

pay up.

[CousinIT]

33. Ditto that! Look at Trump's mess. They said it should take 5 skilled agents to audit.

He OWES big time.

[TigressDem]

35. WHAT A TRUE BLUE DEM you are!!

[doc03]

41. A Dem friend of mine said "Taxes are the price of freedom" I never forgot that. But it does piss me

off that I paid more taxes on my SS last year than TFG paid in 3 years combined. That is Congesses fault not the IRS

[TigressDem]

45. TFG is illegally dodging taxes. As are most in top 10%.

CONGRESS has added to IRS which was UNDERFUNDED, UNDERSTAFFED and OVER WORKED.

Being able to AUDIT BILLIONAIRES is the path to resolving the Deficit.
160 Billion a year and 7 TRILLION over 10 years is a BETTER plan than any cost cutting out there.

AND IT'S OWED if they HID MONEY and FAKED Deductions to ROB the US of valid tax dollars.

The laws for taxing the rich favor them being able to LEGALLY deduct when they are in situations that LOGICALLY allow them to take those deductions.

IF they are HONESTLY taking deductions because they put so much back into the community or took risks to make their companies successful, we get that.

BUT IF THEY ARE FAKING IT AND PUTTING MONEY OFF SHORE TO AVOID PAYING TAXES, kick them to the curb.

Hard working Americans DESERVE better.

Hard working Americans DON'T have KINGS that they have to schlep around on their backs.

BILLIONAIRES who DON'T PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE want US to CARRY THEM.

NO MORE BOO HOOS FOR BILLIONAIRES.

IRS is on the trail. Crooks will be prosecuted.

WHITE COLLAR CRIME is KILLING AMERICA.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.




Sorry for the rant.

[Native]

44. Except many of them believe that if you're paying taxes, you must be doing something wrong.

As in, you're too ignorant to find the loopholes.

[NickB79]

37. Ask him to calculate IRS agents per capita over the decades

Because of our growing population, we currently have fewer agents per capita than we did in the 1970's!

Even with the new hires, we still won't be up to where we were 50 years ago.

[GoodRaisin]

39. Yeah, they were rolling an ad here in NC about Biden increasing IRS staffing.

So what if they are. Everybody needs to pay their taxes, no? The only people this should bother is those who aren’t paying their taxes.

[Niagara]

49. Yes, I believe it. Your MAGAt relative is indoctrinated.

There's millions more like your relative that are brainwashed. It's unfortunates side effect of being the target of RW talking points, no matter what source it is.



The Treasury Department rejects GOP claims on new IRS agents
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/treasury-department-rejects-gop-claims-irs-agents/story?id=88495613



Fact-Checking the Misleading Claim About 87,000 Tax Agents
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/06/us/politics/irs-agents-fact-check.html



I realize that you already know that these talking points are lies, but if you have emailing or texting communication with MAGAt relative, you can send them these links. It probably won't make a difference in their critical thinking skills, but at least you can say that you tried. It's frustrating as I've been debunking RW smears since 2008.

[CousinIT]

52. Thank you. They won't listen to facts, reason or any counterargument.

Last edited Sat Jan 7, 2023, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

They're purely driven by fear and fear-driven misinformation from the InfoWars-style corners of the internet.

Nonetheless, I'm adding those links to my arsenal of info! (got a document started). I'm nerdy that way, I like to have resources and references to argue back with - even if the MAGA-bots won't listen

[Niagara]

54. You're welcome, CousinIT :)

Good luck to you.


You're not alone in dealing with and fighting the RW smears. We'll always have your back!

[GoCubsGo]

53. Not to mention that the IRS does not have "agents."

They are not the goddamn FBI. To claim that their auditors and other staff in any way "agents" is nothing but a right-wing BS talking point.

[CousinIT]

55. Yes. They're actually auditors. n/t