General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's simple. They don't give a f*uck about the democratic process if it reaches the wrong result.
Most of us believe in democracy. We believe in the literal process, recognizing that democracy is the beating heart of freedom, and that freedom is what protects all of the rights we cherish. Others think exclusively of right and wrong, thinking that results are all that matter. Of those some are inclined to think democracies intrinsically tend to "get it right" more often than other forms of governance, and so they support democracies. Then there are the rest. Most falling into this bucket are unsure about how to make this world more to their liking. They could vote in elections, they could fall in behind a strongman, whatever seems to work...
The active threat to democracy comes from the ends justify the means crowd, specifically the ones with a clear end in mind. And the most dangerous of these are those who believe they were commanded to implement God's will. For all of the above the means are at root a distraction, their focus is on the ends. Why honor the results of an election if those results are just destined to bring negative or even catastrophic results? They may acknowledge tactical reasons to accept an election defeat, centered on their assessment of whether continued resistance would set them back even further, but they see nothing sacred about elections as a means.
For the narrowly religious among the above the formula is simplest: Reject the Acts of Man (and yes they think in those gender terms) that oppose the Will of God. But others are almost as fervid in their certainty. They know that the purity of the white race has to be defended. They know that America is destined to rule the world. They know that their own culture is better than all others. They know that men are superior to women in decision making outside of the home etc.etc. They "know" what is right for America, and either democracy can ratify their preexisting convictions, or it has to be "reformed"until it does.
Irish_Dem
(47,119 posts)The corrupt GOP and oligarchs who fund them represent their own self interests.
Lovie777
(12,274 posts)They only thing they care about is cha ching and power so they can fuck up everything.
Irish_Dem
(47,119 posts)But you are correct, effing up everything is the third goal.
Cruelty is the point.
calimary
(81,304 posts)I just cant figure out what the so-called payoff gets you as far as longterm benefit.
Is it just a new version of (or new way to characterize) tough love? If so, seems to me that harsh treatment or discipline can have a pretty negative backspin over someones lifetime. Tough love doesnt work on everybody.
Irish_Dem
(47,119 posts)First to say however that there is a short term benefit for these psychopaths.
Sadism is part of the clinical picture and terrorizing and making people miserable is
personally enjoyable to the psychopath. In the case of Trump and Putin, I believe cruelty to
others is sexually arousing for them.
Second, terrorizing and brutalizing a population is a long standing method of control.
Terrorizing people makes them docile, fearful, compliant. They do whatever you want them to do.
They become apathetic, give up their personal power and no longer question authority.
You can see how this played out in East Germany and Russia under Stalin; Nazi occupied Europe,
China, North Korea.
You can see Putin raping, torturing and murdering women and children in Ukraine.
It is a way to force them to surrender and give up.
"Tough Love" in popular pop culture and pop psychology typically means something different.
It refers to not covering for or enabling someone who is dysfunctional. Not alway bailing
out people who constantly get into trouble. Let them have some natural consequences for their actions.
In hopes that this may be a better long term solution to the problem.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)It is how they mobilize some "popular support" that interests me more.
P.S. I was thinking more of those who stormed the Capital, and lower level Republican officials and voters.
Irish_Dem
(47,119 posts)Funny I was just thinking about this topic as well.
What are the lies and manipulations used by the GOP to get votes?
-Divide and conquer, the age old strategy from ancient Rome.
-Create pretend monsters, some are blatantly absurd, i.e., the pronouns a teenager uses
will end civilization as we know it.
-Aim for the dark underbelly of human nature, racism, misogyny, etc.
-Convince Americans that we must be a white, christian, male ruled society.
-Convince Americans that the benefits that other countries enjoy, like healthcare, education are
evil socialist plots.
American oligarchs believe all US financial assets belong to them, it is the job of
corrupt politicians to make that happen.
Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Walleye
(31,028 posts)Johnny2X2X
(19,066 posts)Right wingers are not going to accept any election results they don't like going forward.
And this is nothing new in the world, been going on for decades in more 3rd world countries. What's new is how prevalent it's becoming in Western Democracies. Such an emotional issue for people, once you get people to think their votes don't matter, they get very angry.
And I can see it where the Republicans do flat out steal a national election and then the Dems getting just as fired up about it as MAGA loons currently are. The difference being of course that the Dems in that situation will rightfully be protesting the loss of our Democracy.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)One involves reassuring the vast majority of Americans that our elections are run with integrity. No simple task, as you point out. The other involves extolling and reinforcing the belief that democracy itself is worth protecting because of what it is, the will of the people manifest as opposed to the will of a few determining our fate. The advantage of democracy can't be judged by the results of a specific election. And for too long I think we took it for granted that most people took that for granted.
Ligyron
(7,633 posts)Dont know if that was intentional but hilarious either way. Youre spot on all the way through too.
Freudian and finger slip at the same time.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 10, 2023, 11:38 AM - Edit history (1)
who follows leaders who promise they will prevail over everyone else anyway, somehow. The means always, of course, explained as the power of righteous, inevitable "reform" that will sweep bad government out as the majorities (who really always wanted them all along) sweep them into power.
Development of that level of secular or religious faith (two sides of one coin) requires charismatic, leaders and followers eager to empower them.
That's why I cast a real cool eye at what I see as excessive admiration developing for a leader himself.
The 80M Democrats who liked Biden and the several alternatives similar to him didn't put any of them on a pedestal; it was about issues and principles and who'd be most electable. Liberals are mankind's strongest anti-authoritarians and democracy's greatest supporters.
And when a charismatic leader's messages draw aggressive populist, anti-establishment and anti-institutional hostiles, REAL bad sign! We now know many look for these leaders for various reasons, but more interested in being part of what's forming around them than concerned for protecting the democracy that is their birthright.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)I reject first and evaluate late, while trying to leave open the possibility that maybe I am being too harsh in my initial judgement. 8 times out of ten my knee jerk reaction is confirmed by time and events. A demagogue's rants can bring down a democracy as effectively as can a fleet of tanks.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)An essential test for democracies is not whether such figures emerge but whether political leaders, and especially political parties, work to prevent them from gaining power in the first placeby keeping them off mainstream party tickets, refusing to endorse or align with them, and when necessary, making common cause with rivals in support of democratic candidates.
Isolating popular extremists requires political courage. But when fear, opportunism, or miscalculation leads established parties to bring extremists into the mainstream, democracy is imperiled.
We're certainly living this lesson.
newdayneeded
(1,955 posts)was Mitch not giving Obama a SC judge because of time restraints, then turn around and give trump one with half the time remaining.
onecaliberal
(32,862 posts)Here, we just elect them to congress.
LeftinOH
(5,354 posts)--which is where the conversation about perceived "threats to our democracy" usually come to a screeching halt with many conservatives nowadays. It' the PragerU effect, I guess.
Progressive dog
(6,904 posts)Justice matters.
(6,929 posts)Using the correct half ('semi') term, until they'll start demonizing Jewish people, although they demonize African-American and Latino-American people already, and a growing fringe in Charlottesville already crossed the 'full blown' checkpoint.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)with all the latest acceptable terminology and current erasable red lines
Justice matters.
(6,929 posts)Asian-Americans next.
And the first victims of their historic genocide, Native-Americans.