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pnwmom

(110,261 posts)
Sat Jan 14, 2023, 08:25 PM Jan 2023

As a reminder: The big numbers from the Mar a Lago search.

The first batch of boxes Trump turned over to NARA in January 22 yielded 184 classified documents, amounting to more than 700 pages.

In June, under subpoena, Trump's lawyer turned over another 38 documents.

In August, under the search warrant, 103 more classified documents were discovered.

I haven't been able to find the number of pages in total; but some are guessing -- based on the initial 700 pages -- that the total could be higher than 1000.

This doesn't include all the non-classified Presidential records he had failed to turn over. The reason any records got returned is that NARA realized records were missing, and began asking for them early in 2021. Trump refused to turn them over, insisting they belonged to him, till partially complying in Jan. 2022.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022/09/politics/mar-a-lago-documents-numbers/

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Blue Owl

(59,106 posts)
2. I wonder how many that idiot flushed down his precious toilet?
Sat Jan 14, 2023, 08:33 PM
Jan 2023

Both in the White House and at Made a Cloggo….

republianmushroom

(22,326 posts)
3. are we to be outraged by these numbers
Sat Jan 14, 2023, 08:48 PM
Jan 2023

(which I am) but give the present administration a pass on the number Joe had ?
(which I do not)

pnwmom

(110,261 posts)
5. The number that Joe had is an amount that could have happened accidentally.
Sat Jan 14, 2023, 08:51 PM
Jan 2023

The number that Trump had could not. And, besides, Trump spent all of 2021 arguing that they belonged to him, as well as all the other Presidential records he'd kept.

Captain Zero

(8,905 posts)
6. Don't forget. Trump had empty folders too!
Sat Jan 14, 2023, 09:27 PM
Jan 2023

I'm guessing the documents from those, if not found yet, have been sold.

SlimJimmy

(3,251 posts)
9. Accidental is otherwise defined as gross negligence.
Sun Jan 15, 2023, 02:40 AM
Jan 2023

There is no intent portion of the statute. All classified material at the Top Secret level must be behind what is known as "Security in Depth." For example, if the documents are going to be stored in a stand alone building (SCIF) then it must have a perimeter fence, then an area for screening just inside the building, and then a specific type of lock on the high security container that holds the information. All information is signed out and then back in prior to leaving the secure building.

There is no possible way that this classified information made it's way into private hands "accidentally." The above also applies to fat Orange Man.

pnwmom

(110,261 posts)
10. Which statute are you referring to? The Espionage act doesn't apply, because he lacked the
Sun Jan 15, 2023, 02:55 AM
Jan 2023

Last edited Sun Jan 15, 2023, 04:16 AM - Edit history (7)

required intent. Also, he hasn't done anything obstructive. The other laws that apply to removal of records also require willfulness or intent.

Unlike you, I think it's easy to imagine how busy staffers might have accidentally packed items on Biden's desk with the other things going to his new office; or that, while he was VP, he took documents with him to read at his Maryland home and accidentally left them there. Neither of these situations would be willful or show intent to do something nefarious.

"The Espionage Act was established in 1917 to prohibit anyone from obtaining defense information with the possible intent of using it against the U.S. or to further the interests of a foreign country."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-search-warrant-espionage-act_n_62f6a831e4b095e788805b5a

The paragraphs below were written about Trump, but the law seems even less likely to apply to Biden. Biden not only didn't fail to deliver the classified documents on demand, he immediately turned them over when his lawyer discovered them.


The part of the Espionage Act that is likely most relevant in this case is § 793(d). It applies to individuals who lawfully accessed material:

“relating to the national defense,” and who proceeded either willfully to convey it to “any person not entitled to receive it,” or willfully to “retain the same and fail to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it.”

The statutory language is sparse. Over the years, courts have narrowed it through construction, although even the judicially construed terms remain quite capacious. The most important judicial refinement concerns the term “relating to the national defense.” Although acknowledging that “national defense” is an extremely far-ranging concept, courts have tacked on two additional components. First, the materials must be “‘closely held’ in that [they] ... have not been made public and are not available to the general public.’” Second, the disclosure must be “potentially damaging to the United States or [potentially] useful to an enemy of the United States.” Although the Espionage Act does not mention the classification system—which predates the act’s passage—courts have used classification status to inform their assessment as to whether materials were “closely held.” They have also relied on it to determine who was “entitled to receive” information. Additionally, courts have interpreted the willfulness requirement to mean that the offending conveyance or retention must have been done knowingly.


https://www.lawfareblog.com/donald-trump-and-espionage-act

In addition to the Espionage Act, "There are two other laws Trump is suspected of violating in connection to his handling of government documents." I'll post the statutes language below.

18 USC § 2071, which bars the concealment, removal, or mutilation generally of government records. Conviction on this count carries a maximum penalty of three years and disqualification from holding public office.

18 USC § 1519, which prohibits the destruction, alteration, or falsification of records "with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter" within the jurisdiction of federal agencies or departments. Conviction on this count carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison.


https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fbi-espionage-act-january6-search-warrant-federal-laws-broken-2022-8

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
U.S. Code


(a)Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b)Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.



https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy
U.S. Code

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519

Response to pnwmom (Reply #10)

pnwmom

(110,261 posts)
12. There has never been another case where a situation like Biden's has been treated
Sun Jan 15, 2023, 05:46 AM
Jan 2023

as "gross negligence." In law, precedent is followed, and there isn't any -- at least not that would fit the facts as we know them now.

You obviously don't know what gross negligence is. Here's the definition.

Gross negligence is a lack of care that demonstrates reckless disregard for the safety or lives of others, which is so great it appears to be a conscious violation of other people's rights to safety.

Gross negligence is a heightened degree of negligence representing an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of care. Falling between intent to do wrongful harm and ordinary negligence, gross negligence is defined as willful, wanton, and reckless conduct affecting the life or property or another.


There's that key word again: WILLFUL. Biden did not willfully do anything wrong. He, or probably a staffer, made mistakes.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/gross_negligence#:~:text=Gross%20negligence%20is%20a%20heightened,life%20or%20property%20or%20another.

hlthe2b

(113,972 posts)
13. +1 The poster seems determined to claim the OPPOSITE of what gross negligence
Sun Jan 15, 2023, 12:40 PM
Jan 2023

means.

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