The head of the National Archives needs to be fired.

[Tacan]

How can top secret documents, pertaining to the security of the United States, and our allies, be so uncontrolled? How can the National Archives not know what documents are missing, who last had the documents, and where the documents are? This is a national embarrassment, and it needs to be fixed now. Why would any other country share sensitive information with us again?

Some people need to lose their jobs over this.

Hey Garland, you think you could look into this?

[RockRaven]

1. The National Archives doesn't take custody of presidential records in real time as they are created.

If those records are created, then placed wrongly, before the National Archives ever gets custody of them, how is that the National Archives fault?

[Sneederbunk]

2. How does the NARA know specific docs exist?

[Pobeka]

3. Classified doesn't mean top secret. nt

[onenote]

4. I think you need to educate yourself about NARA

[Tacan]

5. I think you need to educate yourself about handling classified documents.

[Fiendish Thingy]

10. Careful now, before you embarrass yourself. Nt

[inthewind21]

32. Too late

[onenote]

31. Please educate me. Tell me all you know about classified presidential and VP documents

and how they are handled during and after an official's time in office.

It shouldn't take too long.

[obamanut2012]

34. So, you admit you have no idea how NARA works?

lolz

[intelpug]

7. Nara

I do have one question perhaps you can answer because all your posts I have considered sincerely to be exceptionally astute,, Do the people at Nara themselves have clearance to actually read all this information at any time or is there only a very narrow few who can actually be privy to the contents whereas the rest of the staff is only allowed to catalog and file but forbidden to view the contents?

[Metaphorical]

11. Thr latter

I worked as a contractor at NARA. The curators who take possession of personal effects, including papers, general have TS clearance or above. They also have protocols in place for special designation documents. All documents are also scanned and encrypted, meaning that once in the system, they cannot be read without proper software. The originals are then sealed and stored, usually offsite. Indiana Jones-esque warehouses.

[UTUSN]

6. *THIS*!

[obamanut2012]

35. lol that isn't how NARA works

[UTUSN]

40. It "works"?!1 - who knew.

[Fiendish Thingy]

8. You simply don't know how government works

Or who has day to day responsibilities for managing documents.

NARA is just one piece of the puzzle.

It wouldn’t be Garland’s responsibility to investigate dysfunction in a government agency; that job would likely fall to the agency’s inspector general.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

13. Starting to piece it together.... How did the Archives

know that trump had more and then more docs he didn't return? They didn't because they have no idea what they will get, right? Was it DOJ investigating the major sources of top secret docs who kind of knows?

On an everyday basis ( before leaving office).. Say the Secretary of the Navy checks out a top secret doc from the Navy's secure location. They take it to review it with the President. The President keeps it like trump did. Wouldn't someone in the Navy be looking for that document?

Moreover... It doesn't sound like there is not one entity that pulls it all together in a daily basis? IOW, the Army, the Navy, NSA, CIA, State and so on and so on, originate classified docs. And it's a decentralized system. But each is supposed to follow procedures.

[W_HAMILTON]

16. Because it never received several pieces of prominent and publicized documents...

...including, among others, some of Trump's correspondence with North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un and the Sharpie-altered map of Hurricane Dorian.

That led them to inquire where they were and why they had not been handed over, and thus the unraveling began...

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. Yes... You're right. So that was one of trump's fatal

errors... Splitting up events/subjects.

[moniss]

21. Great questions

and usually one or more assistants would be charged with getting together files for meetings and this may likely be where the first breakdown of control begins. Many years ago I was an assistant to a guy in a corporation. He would insist on taking originals of documents and then I would have to fight to get them back. Sometimes never did. Then months later he would ask for the original and we would have the back and forth about how he never returned it to me. Also despite people looking for a document there is only so loud an assistant can be on the matter before you get replaced. Also if these folks get too much workload then things really can go haywire. So they take them home, hand them off to others at the meeting and then don't remember who they gave it to, the secondary recipient passes it on etc. and now where it is nobody knows and they don't want to own up to it because they might get heat for having it and not updating the chain-of-custody records. So it sits buried in a drawer etc. Meanwhile the assistant gets chewed on about being ineffective in maintaining control. I don't miss being someones assistant.

[moniss]

9. It is quite likely

that, despite various intel/defense/law enforcement agencies having sign out logs etc., that once these files are in one office they end up going to another and another and so on and the tracking info to the log isn't updated as it should be. The underlings responsible for the log very likely know they will get whipped pretty hard if they make a stink about this high ranking official or that not reporting changes. I'm extrapolating that from what I know to occur in business and in state government agencies. File systems logs will show that a specific document is supposed to be in the official file but when you go looking it isn't there. The EPA is a good example of that.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

14. That makes sense. And if in trump's case he's got

his stooges in charge of entities that produce important docs, they are not going to complain if trump doesn't return docs.

From the very beginning I thought this was the elephant in the room... Those who originated docs not knowing what was missing and screaming. - now it's making more sense.

No wonder DOJ never seemed to know exactly what trump may have. That'd have to get a thorough audit from each originator and then match it against a list that have been returned. But maybe the entity might say - hey we don't know what happened to this doc? Or who might have it.

[moniss]

15. Right you are

and none of the agencies want to air in public how faulty the systems really are. Not just for national security reasons but they certainly don't want to have to answer for failures.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

19. So true!!! But.... Am a little surprised that a new head

appointed by Biden isn't saying... They knew trump still had Doc X and 1) they didn't pursue. or 2) they did pursue and trump didn't respond. But you're right... Why besmirch your own entity in public? Perhaps it's what they told DOJ ?

[moniss]

23. I think they knew

because some staff knew the seriousness and volume of documents he took and let it be known. They probably took awhile to figure out how to approach the whole thing knowing the social media/conservative media howl that would ensue no matter which way they went. So I think that's why they initially took the "pretty please" approach. I also think it's possible that someone at Mar-A-Ghastly, either staff or SS, may have been aware of the situation before DOJ/Archives stepped in. Especially in the case of the SS if they knew what those file markings look like and mean. I can imagine it would raise a suspicion since these files didn't all just sit in the boxes they were transported in but rather he had taken many out and had some in his office and some had the documents missing. I don't think it's too likely that people in the WH in the final days would have packed up empty file folders. So for example if an SS guy saw files with these markings go into the office and then a foreign visitor goes in for a "meeting" I think it's possible he might say something to someone still in government maybe on the QT.

It's possible that DOJ got wind that documents were "leaving" and that spurred a far more urgent response.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

25. Read that Kelly was serious about keeping docs under

control but once he left successor didn't. And trump was notorious for hoarding or tearing up stuff. Toward the end, the staff just flat out gave up. Ironically President Obama was known to be fastidious about doc control.

Good points on what probably happened at mar-a-lago! Made me remember too how it was never known/published who went there to work, just who was slated to. (Hutchinson) Maybe it has been since.

[moniss]

26. Yes

and it was very alarming about her testimony about seeing Meadows burning documents in the fireplace.

[Celerity]

12. De rec

[obamanut2012]

37. Why? This isn't how the National Archives work

People being snarky and accusing NARA have literally no idea how it works. I am in this profession, and it isn't NARA's fault in any way.

[Celerity]

39. huh? Of course it isn't the National Archives fault, which is why I de recc'd the OP

[blogslug]

17. I can think of a number of things that are more embarassing for America

I really don't think firing Debra Steidel Wall (who took the job in May) is going to solve anything. In fact, I would go as far as to say NARA needs more employees and more funding to better keep track of sensitive documents after a presidential transition.

I'm much more embarrassed by the fact we had a twice-impeached, lying, scamming, racist, sexist, fascist, seditionist, document-hoarding president for four years.

[W_HAMILTON]

18. Because it's not up to NARA to "control" these documents...

...especially when they never received them in the first place.

The only reason the situation unfolded the way it did with Trump was because several pieces of prominent and publicized documents (e.g., correspondence with Kim Jong Un, the letter that Obama left Trump on his first day in office, the Sharpie-altered map of Hurricane Dorian, etc.) were never turned over by the Trump administration to NARA, so it began to inquire where these documents were, and thus here we are today...

[pnwmom]

20. The National Archives doesn't control documents while they're in the hands of the President

or other members of the government.

[Bucky]

22. I don't think the OP gets how document handling works

[Hekate]

27. I think you're right

[obamanut2012]

38. Nor do the DUers agreeing

[Skittles]

29. all I know is, something needs to be done about doco handling

it's fucking RIDICULOUS how so many people lose track of their documents

[MissMillie]

30. My suggestion... going forward

(And bear in mind, I haven't considered whether or not there are legal considerations to this.... )

How about at the end of every administration, a team of people from the National Archives (all with code clearance) supervise the packaging and storage and relocation of White House, DOJ, and NSA files?

(Or... this is something that could be done on a continuing (and/or rotating) basis so that the work doesn't have to be completed between election day and Jan. 20th).

If there's any dispute between what is a private record and what is a Presidential record, those materials could be set aside so that a judge could make a decision.)

Then again, maybe this is already happening and the reality is that folks are just REALLY bad at it. I have no doubt that the classified stuff is supposed to be "tracked."

[obamanut2012]

33. It doesn't work that way

Good lord.

[iemanja]

36. It's not their responsibility

They can't know every document that exists when they haven't seen them. Your deflection of blame is inappropriate.