General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOn Green Grass
"This world and yonder world are incessantly giving birth: every cause is a mother, its effect the child.
"When the effect is born, it too becomes a cuse and gives birth to wonderous effects.
"These causes are generation on generation, but it needs a very well lighted eye to see the links in their chain."
-- Jalal-ad-din Rumi, Persian Sufi poet
I'm likely a few days late for getting in on the discussions of the "generation gap" on this forum. For I am old, and try to think about things before expressing myself. You know how old people are -- and how frustrating it can be when they communicate inslow motion. My kids likely get annoyed when I raise what I consider an important point on a debate that took place 72+ hours before.
So I often find myself lstening to the boys debate some point ot another in another room, while I sit in a rocking chair with my grandson fast asleep in my arms. That chair used to belong to my great-great-maternal grandparents. It probably could have been thrown away a couple of generations ago, when padded rocking chairs hit the scene, but instead it ended up in my parents' attic when I was young. When they died, it was given to my older sister, who didn't want it because it was old. Luckily, my youngest daughter saved it from being sold or thrown out.
I'm surrounded by framed pictures hanging on the walls of my ancestors. My great grandfather moved his family to the U.S. in 1879, when my grandfather was four or five. I also have tin-type pictures of extended family members in Ireland from before the move, many of which were in te family bible they brought over. By chance -- if one believes in chance -- my grandfather's last living cousin saw me on television decades ago, was reminded of another of his cousins named Patrick, and contacted me. When I visited him, he gave me the bible that his mother -- my g-g-g grandfather's sister -- had when she served as the family historian. He said if we hadn't met, they would probably have been thrown out when he died.
Listening to my grandfather's cousin and his wife, both in their early 90s, helped fill in the blanks about many of the extended family members that I only knew of by name. It also presented some humor. His wife asked if my brother and I were republicans? The husband said, "Of course not! Look at their hair!" It wasn't only that they held republicans in contempt ..... she wanted to show us a room where they grew enough pot to last them a year.
Anyhow, when my now teething grandson woke up, I carried him around the house, showing him pictures of his ancestors. I tell him that they lived teir lives the way that they did, so that he can live his life the way that he will. He was more interested in gnawing on a teething ring, but I am confident that he will understand when he gets older.
After my grandson and son leave, I get back to thinking about this generation gap. This is not a hard transition, since my son frequently tells me about some "new" concept in raising children, as if I wasn't aware of it. (How did human beings survive in the pre-podcast era?) As an old seanchai, I think back to the words of a preacher -- one who lived long before me, and apparently was talking to a younger generation: "The thing that has been, it is the thing that shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1 )
Now, as possibly the oldest person on the planet, I have plenty of experiences ranging from being a young activist listening to and learning from older, more experienced people, to being an old person telling young folks about my insights. Some of the time these days, a few young people appreciate what I have to say, other times not so much. I keep in mind something that Oren Lyons, the Onondaga Faithkeeper, told me more than 40 years ago -- if you talk to a group of 20 people, and one "gets it," you have done well.
If I were to mention one young person who really values my experience, it would be my older daughter. She's a heck of a lot smarter than me, but not as experienced. She calls me at least once a week, to ask my opinion on some social-political issue that she is working on. This, despite her knowing I'll ask what the options are. Then we discuss the potential good and bad with each option. And then I tell her to trust her own judgement.
About a week ago, she sent me pictures from the Massachusetts new Attorney General being sworn in -- the first black woman to hold the office. My daughter used to work for her. She thought it was nice that my daughter frequently spoke of talking with me about issues, so much so that she called my daughter "Scout." Hopefully, not only old DU members will recognize this from Harper Lee's novel.
I'll end by saying this: if my daughter can learn from a decrepit specimen as me -- and I continue to learn from her -- then surely we are all teachers and students. And we are at a point when we do not have the luxury of divisions based on age, etc. Finally, our music was far superior in the 1960s and early '70s.
H2O Man
TdeV
(160 posts)A wonderful post.
Being a cranky old man, I had to say that! And I reserve my right to mention Muhammad Ali.
Docreed2003
(17,650 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)I will say that I never expected to be viewed as a fossil. An artifact, maybe.
My older son once said, "You thought of yourself as radical when you were young, but ....." I reminded him that I've been places, hung out with "real" radicals, and done things far beyond making snarky comments on the internet that he mistakes for meaningful.
My younger son at times expresses disappointment that I am not the young activist I was when he was a kid. That I'm too nice these days, and am friendly to most everyone.
My younger daughter is comfortable being politically active on a local level, and is always willing to help me with any project. But she is primarily focused on changing society as a social worker, one person at a time.
But my daughter in Boston will be running for office fairly soon.
panader0
(25,816 posts)her mind. "You taught me about negative numbers" she once said. She cried when she received
the only "B" in her high school career. And she had a daughter too.
She's about as liberal as a person can be. I look forward to her weekly calls.
That's good to hear! Except the B part. Smart kids often put a lot of pressure on themselves for grades. And someimes grades don't tell the full story.
I know that all of my kids are glad that when they were growing up, I brought them to all types of public meetings, rallies, and Democratic Party campaign headquarters. And they all say that my love of books influenced them to be avid readers.
redwitch
(15,059 posts)Thank you.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)Being this old is a great excuse for my thinking a few days before I open my big mouth! (grin)
Atticus
(15,124 posts)I appreciate that!
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Hekate
(94,218 posts)Our music will always be "old reliable" in any/every discussion comparing the eras. I am willing to tie one arm behind my back if any person wants to argue that point. It really wouldn't be fair otherwise! Ha!
littlemissmartypants
(24,941 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)yorkster
(2,282 posts)Funnily enough, several hours ago I was thinking about the name Scout and how neat it would be as a name for a daughter. ..granddaughter in my case.
And thank you for your words about not having "the luxury of divisions based on age, etc.". Timeless advice, literally and metaphorically. Thank you.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)A surprising number of people have asked me what I want my grandson to call me. I say that's up to him, not me. But when one of my nephews was wee-little, and had only mastered a few words, he called me "botch." I think it works. (He also called my mother "boy," which she didn't find as funny as the rest of us.)
yorkster
(2,282 posts)You could test it out, so to speak.
Be well.
Trueblue Texan
(2,861 posts)...and I wholeheartedly agree with every sentence, especially the last one!
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)My daughter had a rough day at work today. She had called me to vent. Then she recorded herself on a video playing "Strawberry Fields Forever," high among my favorite songs, and sent it to me.
Trueblue Texan
(2,861 posts)NoMoreRepugs
(10,431 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)Much appreciated!
Coventina
(27,795 posts)Excellent piece!
I feel much the same as you. I don't really get into the generational discussions around here, as I think making blanket statements about about a cohort of people is almost certain to be wrong.
But then, I'm gen X and we are known for not participating in things.
(see what I did there?)
Yours truly,
Coventina
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)But rock 'n roll can never die!
I sometimes question when such foolish "divides" are given voice here. Of course, I'm paranoid -- everyone my age is, though roughly 27% are paranoid about the wrong things. I guess every generation produces its own fools.
burrowowl
(17,967 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)I appreciate it!
moniss
(5,437 posts)and I am heartened by the fact that, just when I think nobody cares what I think, someone younger will in fact ask me for information about how it was. I'm sort of there with you on the music but I think the jazz was better in the late '40's, in the '50's for sure and up into the early '60's. The folk music also. I do like young people who ask me about the Beatniks, Hippies, early hi-fi, real honest to goodness nightclubs and supper-clubs. I like explaining that those clubs are not the same thing. They are usually surprised that the real history of things is different than the image given to them on TV and in movies. Most of those clubs are gone now. Like those who made them a big deal and those of us who sat at the tables in the glow of little lamps and candles, then danced and took a walk in the moonlight. No smartphone necessary.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)My younger son recently bought the "new" Doors LP, "Paris Blues." He brought it over, and we ended up listening to it twice. Side two has some live blues recorded in hight clubs. Between him and my other son, they have a lot of the Doors, Hendrix, the Beatles, and the Plastic Ono Band, etc.
Many years ago, when they were teenagers, I found them listening to David Peel & the Lower East Side Gang.... which remains, so many decades later, rebel teen music. They seemed a bit nervous when I asked what they were listening to, and said it was stuff I wouldn't have heard of. Surprise, surprise! The old man has known of David et al since they were part of an early Plastic Ono Band. More, I'd known David for many years, and had played with the original band at a Woodstock reunion long ago. So I got out a tape that David gave me, of Yoko and him in the studio, along with a pile of pictures of him with John & Yoko.
kentuck
(112,539 posts)Not in our lifetimes.
The wise never age. They are immortal.
Your thoughts and friends are many.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)I was tempted to add that there will never be another Muhammad Ali. All of the social and political currents from that era combined to create an environment unlike any other, and the artists that took to all types of stages reflected it in ways that cannot be equaled.
Saoirse9
(3,786 posts)I learn from you all the time, why shouldnt youngsters get the chance?
I love that you will teach your grandson about his ancestors and how they took chances and sacrificed so that future generations would have a better life. Its important to honor our ancestors and learn from them everything we can. Soon we will be the ancestors and we need to think about our own legacy to the future generations.
My aunt on my Dads side of the family passed away in June last year. After she passed we finally had access to the old family photos. She inexplicably refused to share them with us during her lifetime. And now, there is no one left to answer questions about who is in the photographs. Its sad. We have surmised that my aunt knew of the hardships of our ancestors and simply didnt want to dredge up unpleasant memories.
I am the family historian and very few of the newest generation are interested in their heritage. Thats sad for me. But it doesnt stop my research or my curiosity.
Thanks for the reminder to remember and honor our ancestors even though I have no idea what sparked the generation gap conversation.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)I remember one day when Chief Waterman said that every time an Elder dies, something that only they knew is lost. I mentioned that to my supervisor at work, when I was getting the following day off to attend an Elder's funeral at Onondaga. I said that it seemed like all of the Elders were dying off. He said that yes, they were, but that society's supply of Elders is constantly replenished.
Saoirse9
(3,786 posts)Ours is so superior to the current generation that I feel deeply sorry for them. They dont even know what they have missed.
Saoirse9
(3,786 posts)Thank God for Youtube.
spanone
(137,463 posts)I will say, however, that I anticipated that it would take a heck of a lot longer for me to get this old.
Elessar Zappa
(15,421 posts)As a millennial, Ill admit the music was better back then. Great post as always, H2O man.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)When I was young, the old men said that Jack Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight champion ever. He would have kicked the stuffing out of any of the ones that followed. Then guys of my father's generation said the same thing about Joe Louis. Of cours, I was equally certain that Muhammad Ali was, to quote him, "the Greatest."
I still have the brash young contender Cassius Clay's LP "I am the Greatest. One of my brothers played it whenever my uncles were visiting my father to annoy them. Soon there would be other albums they thought were a fad, soon to evaporate, by a group called The Beatles. The older folks were certain that their music was all timeless classics.
I recognize that I am, in a sense, stuck in the era in which I came of age. But we sure as heck had great music. And my brother tells me that even if a heavyweight champion in the future might have beat Ali had they fought, we will indignately deny it!
Thank you!
Martin Eden
(13,375 posts)Have merely rediscovered that which was known to previous generations.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)I had that same experience when I was young!
oasis
(51,494 posts)H2O Man
(75,210 posts)Easterncedar
(3,284 posts)Dear H2O Man,
I book marked this, so I can read it whenever my heart needs some peace. Thank you. I truly love this. I can almost hear it when I read.
And yes about the music, of course.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)That is very nice of you.
betsuni
(27,255 posts)I cringe listening to the Beatles for the millionth time, hard rock guitar band songs about drugs and humping everybody, singer-songwriters. I want to howl in distress at the sound of Bob Dylan's voice.
But I will admit that the music then was hand made, not as artificial and commercially studio-produced as it became, same as movies.
H2O Man
(75,210 posts)still listen to the soothing music of the Doors.
betsuni
(27,255 posts)I didn't find music I liked (except for classical) until I found out about R&B and funk. Like classical, something you can really dance to!