Trump is toast.

[werdna]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/2/5/2151174/-Americans-for-Prosperity-Koch-group-to-oppose-Trump?utm_campaign=recent&utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral

The network of donors and activist groups led by conservative billionaire Charles Koch will oppose Donald Trump for the 2024 Republican nomination, mounting a direct challenge to the former president’s campaign to win back the White House.

[Scrivener7]

1. Their wording was a little weaselly, which makes me nervous they could

back off this if they want, but this makes me very happy.

[SoCalDavidS]

2. Yeah, Whatever

[Scrivener7]

5. I think this is significant, though. If the Koch people have come out

specifically to signal that they won't back tfg, in opposition to the tack they usually take, they are making a special and very loud statement.

And they control an enormous amount of money. Every republiQan depends on money from their network to some extent.

They have just made it very expensive for other candidates and for the republiQan machine to back tfg.

I think this may very well take him out of politics.

[COL Mustard]

30. I certainly hope this will take him out of politics.

Words don't describe how I really feel about him. DeSantis is just as bad, but I haven't cultivated that feeling about him yet. Give me time......

[Laura PourMeADrink]

32. Don't forget he doesn't pay cities to host his hate rallies.

And doesn't he have hundreds of millions already?

I love that these donors are not backing him. But don't think it will stop him. All he has do do is sell more MAGA hats. Or what's the new slogan.

He doesn't do a lot of ads? Or maybe I've blocked from my memory.

Ahhh. Biggest surprise - never fully understood that even if he lost he would never go away.

[Scrivener7]

91. It's not so much him as it is the republiQans down-ticket who do depend

on the republiQan financing network.

If they are being told by their major donors that they are not to support tfg, they won't fall in line like they did last time while we all watched with shock and horror, which normalized him to the republiQan rank and file voter and which emboldened his bat-shittier followers.

Without the adoration of the entire party, he will look very different to a lot of republiQan voters.

And there is a certain dependence of any presidential candidate, no matter how individually well funded, on the massive conservative super pac network.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

98. So what does that mean? Say someone is running for gov

a Republican... They won't get big $ if they support TFG? So they will back someone else?

[Scrivener7]

100. If the party line from Koch and the money guys is that tfg is persona non-grata, yes.

We saw the reverse pretty clearly when it happened: The money people at some point in 2016 decided that this guy they despised was the one to back, and suddenly all the republiQans changed their tune about him overnight and lined up in support of him.

That same support can very easily be made to disappear.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

101. Remember TFG was going to finance his own campaign!?

I had forgotten about that.

[Scrivener7]

104. Lol! Yeah, right? Also, I am the queen of Belgium.

[Hiawatha Pete]

25. +1. They're just looking for someone who can Fascist better.

F^ck TFG & F^ck Koch

[Cosmocat]

45. Right - until he pulls in 40% of the primary vote and the other 20 candidates

are scrambling for the remaining 60%.

Then, they will be the good, christian patriots they are and throw behind him cause ... LIBERALS!

[SoCalDavidS]

52. +100

[MuseRider]

58. Exactly!

[Botany]

3. Trump is already toast

14th amendment Section 3

It states that: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

[Scrivener7]

6. Without a conviction, that doesn't apply.

[SoCalDavidS]

13. Or Without An Indictment, For That Matter

[newdayneeded]

17. Correct

[stopdiggin]

35. as adjudicated by whom? The Republican National Party?

The 50 individual state primaries? (the Supremes? the toothless gridlocked Congress?)
Who is going to get that name stricken from the ballot?

------- ---- ---- --------

[stopdiggin]

49. wasn't angst. serious question. WHO is going to keep

him off the ballot?

Your post asserted that a conviction is not necessary. So then - what is the mechanism? How does this come about? Do you have an answer?

----- -----

[BannonsLiver]

63. Yeah good luck with that.

[Stuart G]

94. Why Trump is "burnt toast"...He said these words..."It's all a hoax" in referring to the pandemic.

When professional Republicans figure out that he said those 4 words, they will not support him for any reason.

Can you imagine Trump running for President and that short video with him saying those 4 words being
repeated all over the country thousands of times...? ...Here it is...Trump saying "It's a Democratic hoax"

10 minute watch at this link (maybe a lot less) couldn't watch it, & you know why:

[rzemanfl]

4. Exactly what I said when the

"Access Hollywood" tapes hit.

[Scrivener7]

7. Hey! Where've you been? Good to see you!

[rzemanfl]

22. I drop by now and then.

I have been busy. It's a long story.

[rzemanfl]

76. It is sock season here.

Wear them most days.

[Scrivener7]

78. I hope all is well.

[dalton99a]

9. +1

[wnylib]

8. The Koch alternative might be worse.

Liz Cheney, Ron DeSantis.

[Scrivener7]

10. We were always going to have to deal with what came after him, though.

And though I think both candidates you name are miles smarter, they don't engender the absolute lunacy and loyalty tfg does.

They will be terrible, but we have always had horrible republiQans to contend with. That is the nature of that party now. But I think the insanity of tfg's social and political influence is a once in a generation monster.

Getting rid of tfg as a political force is worth it, even if it does bring another terrible republiQan forward. And at VERY long last, this might do it.

[stopdiggin]

40. good point.

it is hard to imagine a GOP candidate that is not a noxious dirt bag. That is what the party stands for right now. But Liz Cheney (perhaps being an outlier?) has at least made it clear that she has no use for the insurrectionist, 'burn it all down', white nationalist, Q-Anon crazies. That's a step.

And, yes - I also think Trump was a special sauce. Hard to imagine Nikki Haley (or even Abbott or DeSantis) backers exhibiting the same level of spittle flecked bizarro.

[Scrivener7]

92. "spittle flecked bizarro"

So perfect!

[wnylib]

54. True. Trump does have a bizzare kind of charisma.

He manages to mesmerize people in ways that few other politicians could do, so that the loonies things from him are accepted. Once his influence is gone, there will be no one else's coattails for the rest of the nutters to grab onto, so Bannon, MTG, Boebert, etc. should fade away in their influence.

[Kaleva]

12. So you prefer TFG?

[newdayneeded]

18. I hate these "they might be worse than trump"

posts. It's almost like there trying to make people scared of the other candidates so they vote for trump.

I'm gonna say this again, but louder!

Those other candidates don't have an absolute maniacal blood thirsty cult that will do their bidding at the drop of a MAGA hat, like donny. Also, these other candidates won't be thinking nuclear strike as even a remote first option. Like donny!

Donny is dangerous dangerous dangerous!!

They ALL have right wing policies, only one has millions of cultists that will kill for him!

No matter what, donny is 10X worse than the others. Period!

[Eyeball_Kid]

20. A major reason that DeSantis won't copy-cat Trump with the same group of worshippers:

DeSantis doesn't look Aryan enough. And he won't be dying his hair blonde.

[Polybius]

56. "DeSantis doesn't look Aryan enough"

Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2023, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Neither do tons of Trump supporters. I live in SI, NY and see them every day.

[mountain grammy]

23. Agree.

[wnylib]

68. See my #67

[fescuerescue]

57. It's a certainty that the next Republican will be worse

They always are.

They are always plenty of people on the left, that say "yea, George bush wasn't that bad"

Whoever is next, will be 10X worse. Period.

[newdayneeded]

59. You think Liz Cheney would

be 10x worse than trump? I know that wouldn't be the case. Will she have right wing policies? of course! She's a republican afterall.

[fescuerescue]

60. Well I'm talking about a candidate that might win

I don't think she would be tens times worse.

But I think she would would the primary or general either

[wnylib]

69. Not just right wing, but far right extremist views.

I would not expect her to attack the Capitol, or kiss Putin's ass, but I also would not expect her to uphold constitutional rights. There's more than one way to steamroll over democracy. Just ask Liz's daddy. He's got experience at it.

[wnylib]

67. What a crock of BS. Why in hell would I, a solid Democrat,

want anyone to vote for Trump or any other Republican?

Not trying to "scare" anyone, either. Just thinking about who the Koch machine might back instead of Trump and what they would be like if they had power.

But, I do have some legitimate fears for the future of our democracy, as do many other DUers who are aware of what's at stake. So do many other Americans besides DUers. I don't play ostrich with my head in the sand. I look at what's going on so I know what kind of fight we face in keeping democracy intact.

[newdayneeded]

74. I absolutely stand by my post,

there is no one, and I mean NO one more dangerous than trump getting back in there. On top of the reasons already listed I'll add 4 fucken years of pure hateful revenge politics. With his mouth breathing cultists cheering him on the whole way. He'll get a hand picked AJ that won't stop until Biden, Hillary, and Hunter are in prison.

Plus a guaranteed replay of J6, this time with 90% of them armed.

[wnylib]

79. You really think that he could get elected in 2024?

I don't. He's dangerous because he would again not accept a loss and would claim that he won and try to get in office by force.

But this time, he would not be the one already in office to pull the strings of government in his favor, like making security forces stand down. Biden would be in charge of responding to his violence.

The violence would be worse than Jan 6 because his militias have had time to plan attacks.

But that's assuming that he would be the nominee for 2024. The OP is suggesting that he won't be, and that someone else would be the Republican candidate because Trump would not have backing from people with money and power. They would oppose him as the Republican candidate and back someone else. That's what I was responding to - the OP's suggestion that someone else could be the party's choice for 2024 because Trump is getting more opposition from his own party and is losing some support. He is not a shoo-in for the nomination.

The danger from Trump is not that he would get elected, but what he would do if he loses the nomination or the general election if he runs as an Independent.

I do not underestimate the danger that he poses as a 2 time loser. If anything, I'm inclined to estimate the level of violence that he would provoke as higher than most people do. I have Malcom Nance's book, They Want to Kill Americans. He lays out in it just how many militia types that Trump could call upon and the level of their training, experience, and weapons capabilities.

But, again, I was responding to the hypothetical proposed in the OP, that Trump would not be the Republican 2024 candidate.

[newdayneeded]

93. Just to add,

I woke up this morning, and right on cue there's a headline stating that trump says he "deserves to have a revenge tour if re-elected"

[wnylib]

66. What a silly question. Never said that I did.

DeSantis has intelligence that Trump lacks, so that would make him bad, except that he has none of Trump's BS skill to amass idiot followers. But, with his bold and blatantly despicable actions, he'd be a serious problem if he had enough high level backing to gain national power.

Cheney would be bad not only for her views, but for her political connections and the power that they can give her.

As for who I prefer, that should be obvious. I prefer Biden.

[Hotler]

14. I don't see Liz as wanting to cancel democracy. DeSantis has fascist dictator written all over him.

All he needs is to grow that little fucking mustache, boom, instant Nazi.

[Gore1FL]

28. She seemed fine with it prior to Jan 6.

Her dad even became VP when Democracy was canceled.

[inthewind21]

96. My

How quickly people forget. Liz Cheney, the savior of democracy.

[drmeow]

62. I don't see them

supporting Cheney - they're going to support the Nazi level fascism of Desantis over the old school GOP level fascism of Cheney.

[BannonsLiver]

64. There's no "might" about it if it's DeSantis.

[Emile]

11. Should have been toast two years ago after he

orchestrated an insurrection on live TV.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

21. Who has bought Biden?

[lindysalsagal]

38. Until we enact real election reform, dark money will select our leaders, Even the DNC voted

to keep the money flowing.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

39. So Biden is corrupt.

Are you sure you are in the right place?

[betsuni]

71. +1

[Scrivener7]

77. When you play this game, are you fucking with the person

you're replying to, or do you really not understand what they are saying?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

80. What game?

The post I replied to said that Dark money elected the president. So they apparently think he’s corrupt. Which seems a strange sentiment on a site that supports Democrats.

[Scrivener7]

81. Do you truly think the poster is saying Biden is corrupt? Is that

really what you got out of their comment? Or do you actually understand what they are saying and you are fucking with them?

If you understand the obvious, that the poster does not in any way think Biden is corrupt, what do you hope to gain by putting those words in the poster's mouth?

Or is the obvious truly not obvious to you? Is there really a comprehension issue there?

I am asking because it seems to happen often.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

82. If the poster didn't mean to imply that Biden was beholden

To dark money, why did they say the presidency was sold to the highest bidder? Because that has a very clear meaning and it isn’t “ we need to get money out of politics.”
So you can keep playing your little game, I guess.

[Scrivener7]

84. You aren't answering the question. Do you understand the poster does not

think Biden is corrupt?

You've pretty well paraphrased the actual meaning of the post, so it seems clear you do understand the poster does not think Biden is corrupt. Do I have that right?

If so, what do you gain by putting those words into the poster's mouth? What is the benefit to you of manufacturing a difference and then fighting the poster about that manufactured difference?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

85. No I don't understand that

Because that’s not what the poster said. The poster said “we’ve sold the presidency to the highest bidder.” The president is Biden. So who bought him? They avoided answering that. I can only conclude they think Biden is bought, in other words corrupt.
If they didn’t mean to say Biden wasn’t bought by the highest bidder, why did they say it?
It’s a pretty easy answer. But apparently it’s too hard to say, “No, I don’t think Biden is corrupt.”
I’m not sure why you are defending saying Biden is bought by the highest bidder?

[Scrivener7]

86. So it is a comprehension issue. Thank you. I had been wondering.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

87. You know how to easily avoid these apparent misunderstandings?

Saying “we need to get dark money out of politics” rather than accusing Biden of being bought by the highest bidder.
And again, if the poster didn’t mean that Biden was on the take, why did they say it?

[Scrivener7]

88. Have a nice night!

[stopdiggin]

43. broad brush. vast oversimplification

and you ducked the question on Biden. (was Obama 'bought' and paid for too?)

[betsuni]

70. How does that work when Biden didn't have as much money as some other candidates in 2020 but

still won (and didn't hold a lot of rallies either)?

Voters don't count? How does dark money rig things, throw ballots in the river? They rig things by PACs paying for ads? They can't coordinate with candidates or stuff cash in their pockets. You know this, right?

Michael Moore predicted a Mitt Romney win in 2012 because he had more money than President Obama. I think Trump depends on individual contributions and didn't have a lot of PAC support in 2016.

It's conspiracy theory that voters don't count and a shadowy dark money oligarchy controls the United States.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

73. It's voter supression

Telling people their vote doesn’t count because of rich people.
Interesting who it’s aimed at here.

[betsuni]

89. Populism: the Establishment is corrupt, bribed by oligarchs and billionaires. Everything's rigged.

Nobody is fighting for you except us, the Establishment is out to get us (they are terrified!) and will stop at nothing. Won't you chip in $5, $15, $27 to our movement fighting corporate Democrats? In solidarity.

[Firestorm49]

19. It would be nice to be glad that TFG is "toast", except for the fact that an entire cabal

of potentially worse lunatics will slither down the pipe to replace him.

As a party, we have time before the next election to scream our position and accomplishments to all demographics - loud and clear. The only way to stop these idiots in the QOP is to let the American people realize who’s got their back, and who has no other interest than the destruction of democracy.

[BumRushDaShow]

24. Believe it or not, they never really supported him in 2016 (or supposedly anyone then)

Koch-backed Americans for Prosperity in "wait-and-see" mode for 2016 spending

By Emily Schultheis

May 12, 2016 / 6:00 AM / CBS News

Donald Trump's rise as the presumptive Republican nominee has many on the right saying they'll sit out the presidential race entirely, focus their energies on helping the GOP hold the U.S. Senate and re-engage on the national level come 2020.

Americans for Prosperity, the Koch-backed group that spent tens of millions of dollars opposing President Obama in the 2012 election, may be among them.

"We've not made any decisions on 2016 with regard to the presidential," Tim Phillips, AFP's president, told CBS News in a wide-ranging interview Wednesday when asked whether the group will be investing for Trump or against the Democratic nominee.

"It's important to note that we're not an appendage of any party, any political party," he continued. "And so this idea that we would just uniformly fall in with whoever is the last person standing -- it's not our role."

(snip)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/koch-backed-americans-for-prosperity-in-wait-and-see-mode-for-2016-spending/

In major shift, Koch consolidates network of advocacy groups into Americans for Prosperity
By Matea Gold

September 16, 2016 at 5:01 p.m. EDT

(snip)

"We want to grow this into a movement of millions," said Holden, who is general counsel of Koch Industries. "We’re hopeful to grow more."

The change comes days after the Koch network announced it was shifting its focus from television ads to its field program in the final month of the 2016 elections. As of now, the network does not plan to air any commercials after Oct. 4.

Holden said that the moves are not driven by a cash crunch, even though some donors have balked at the network's decision to stay out of the presidential contest.

"The fact that we haven’t been in the presidential has led people who want to play in the presidential to not work with us on that, but we’ve been able to meet all our goals," he said. "I think we’re in a good place."

(snip)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/16/in-major-shift-koch-operation-consolidates-network-of-advocacy-groups-into-americans-for-prosperity/

[tavernier]

29. He knows Biden can beat Rump.

And he doesn’t trust Rump to always follow the CPAC rules since Rump has his own rules.

[Stuart G]

31. I like these two words: "direct challange." I also wonder if this "network" is telling:"the truth"?

[Marius25]

33. I don't believe it. They always fall in line at the end of the day

[Cosmocat]

47. YEP

If it goes like it did in 2016 he will choke out 40% of the primary vote and the other 20 or so will savage each other over the remaining 60% ... SO, they will squeal a bit like they did then, but because they are great christian patriots they will get behind him cause LIBERALS!

[KY_EnviroGuy]

34. Too early to say. Like 2015, everything is subject to change.

Once the Chief Thug starts his rallies and pending what the various justice groups do, we're unfortunately subject to the Republican clown car unpredictability.

Hell, this time next year Steve Bannon's pet snake could be GOP front-runner......

[certainot]

36. he was toast when he killed limbaugh. kochs wouldn't dare if limbaugh still supported him

[trusty elf]

41. May I propose a toast pic?

[Glaisne]

42. LPT for sharing links

The link shared in this post has a tracker. Anytime you share a link look for the "?utm" that and everything after is a tracker. In this case this part of the link is the tracker "?utm_campaign=recent&utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral". Now that is not necessarily a bad thing. These link trackers are usually used to keep track of how links are shared. If you look at the information in this tracker it tells you what campaign it is from, the source (ground.news) and that the link is a referral. Often times link trackers make urls very long. So knowing this is a good way to shorten links. For example in this link: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/2/5/2151174/-Americans-for-Prosperity-Koch-group-to-oppose-Trump?utm_campaign=recent&utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral

Everything before the "?utm" is the actual story link:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/2/5/2151174/-Americans-for-Prosperity-Koch-group-to-oppose-Trump

Not a big difference in this case, but if you are sharing a link with a really long url, look for the first ?utm in the url and only copy everything before it if your so inclined and that will be the link you want share which will be much shorter. You can test it first in a new browser tab to ensure it works. This is a good way to shorten urls without masking the link. I hope you find this useful.

[stopdiggin]

46. nice tip. didn't know that.

also not a bad idea to go back and check that your 'link' actually works ..

[moonscape]

48. Good to know. Thanks!

[BlackSkimmer]

44. Sure wish I had a buck for every time I'd seen that posted.

[area51]

95. +1 n/t

[LetMyPeopleVote]

50. This will be fun to watch

Link to tweet

[ZonkerHarris]

53. They all act like Trump won't burn down the GOP if he doesn't get what he wants. Glorious.

[W_HAMILTON]

61. It doesn't matter since he derives his political power from the loyalty of his crazed supporters.

In case anyone forgot, most big donor types also didn't want to back him when he first ran, and yet he still ended up winning the nomination because the crazy right-wing masses that have been brainwashed by conservative media for decades were conditioned to support someone exactly like this.

[GenThePerservering]

65. DeSatan is way more dangerous than Trump

and his crazy followers. Trump never did anything but showboat and play golf. DeSatan is in it to win it, so to speak and is a dedicated fascist with teeth and a plan - he wants to be another Bolsonaro/Putin etc., and he doesn't need a bunch of drooling idiots wearing desecrated US flags. If he gets in power with a GOP congress, the only thing that will save this country is a violent revolution - I'm a fiercely militant progressive and don't mind arming up, but it would be far better to avoid this.

[newdayneeded]

72. What did I just read here?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

75. A keyboard revolutionary pretending to be tough nt

[inthewind21]

97. Agreed

Add in blind as well. "Trump never did anything but showboat and play golf"

[iemanja]

103. Nothing but an attempted coup

[Polybius]

83. Charles Koch never was a fan of Trump

It's not like this just changed.

[betsuni]

90. Koch and his like are pro-free market, pro-immigration, pro-trade. Establishment.

A surprise for Republicans how Trump's anti-establishment white nationalist populism took off.

Former Koch affiliated group staffer:

"We are partly responsible. We invested a lot in training and arming a grass-roots army that was not controllable, and some of the people have used it in ways that are not consistent with our principles, with our goal of advancing a free society, and instead they have furthered the alt-right."

Koch donor:

"What we feel really badly about is that we were not able to educate many in the tea party more about how the process works and how free markets work. Seeing this movement that we were part of creating going off in a direction that's anti-free-market, anti-trade and anti-immigration -- many of us are really saddened by that."

"What Republican leaders did not appear to understand ... was just how long standing and potent this constellation of sentiments was. Trump tapped into beliefs, ideas, and anxieties that were already present and even well-established within the party. His support was hiding in plain sight."

From "Identity Crisis"

[Jose Garcia]

99. He doesn't need a ton of money to win the GOP nomination

There is a pretty sizable number of voters will support him regardless of who is running against him. As long as there a few other candidates running, they will split the anti-Trump vote, enabling him to win pluralities in most states' primaries. Just like he did in 2016.

[iemanja]

102. Then we get DeSantis

Marginally better.