"We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open"

[Nevilledog]

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Some more information came out today about the chemicals on the train that derailed in East Palestine Ohio. A hazmat specialist said "“We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open"


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1:25 AM · Feb 13, 2023

[emulatorloo]

1. A lot of Conspiracy Theory in the replies. Included folks claiming the "media" didn't cover it

Despite multiple clips of media covering in the thread.

Apparently “UFOs” are part of this alleged government conspiracy.

Just an observation. Seems like Musk’s Twitter >always< has to go off the deep end.

Hope this chemical mess gets resolved ASAP. Horrible for the people of Ohio.

[John1956PA]

4. Correct. I put it on DU within an hour of it occurring.

I found out about it from a Facebook group. I had just happened to check into the group on the Friday evening when the derailment occurred. In the few hours after it occurred, I saw that almost all of the local media picked up the story. By noon on Saturday, it seemed to me that all of the major news outlets had the story. I am thinking that many conspiracy stories designed to destroy Americans' confidence in the news media are produced by Russian bots.

[Faux pas]

2. ...

[Brother Buzz]

3. Here's a great DU thread that merits a read

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217643072

It looks like the Norfolk Southern chose to spend $10 BILLION in stock buybacks rather than maintain a line that seriously needed repairs. The accident was totally avoidable and the Fat Cats need to be held accountable.

[gratuitous]

5. There has been a paucity of coverage

And certainly very little urgency that I think would be merited for this catastrophic event. I know that if this train had derailed near a more affluent area, the coverage would be far more in-depth and intense.

[liberal_mama]

6. I've been unable to find a statement by President Biden on this incident

Does anyone have a link to it?

I'm sure President Biden is planning on visiting the town in the next few days since the railroad said it is safe.

[Diamond_Dog]

7. DeWine has visited a couple of times.

I have to grudgingly give him credit for that.

The area’s Congressional rep is Bill Johnson, I have not heard a peep from him, it’s possible maybe I’ve just missed it. I did a quick Google search and saw that Johnson says “his team continues to monitor the situation.”

That’s a very red area down there, but they surely didn’t deserve this catastrophe.

[liberal_mama]

8. I don't understand why they aren't making a bigger deal of this

Of course, I'm seeing a lot of conspiracy posts on Twitter, but not much in verified news. I'm worried because my daughter and her husband live about 30 miles from the explosion and some people are saying the poison could affect people in neighboring areas. What a terrible thing to happen to the people that actually live in the town.

[John1956PA]

9. I live just over ten miles due east of the site.

My brother lives three miles due east. The Walmart in Chippewa Township is six miles southeast. The people of East Palestine are permitted to move back to their homes. The air and soil in East Palestine will continue to be monitored. The air in some areas outside of East Palestine will also be monitored for a while. Few people living outside of the immediate East Palestine area are concerned at this point.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

10. Yeah, just burn a bunch of toxic waste and don't bother evacuating people.

Make those trains run on time, regardless of the consequences.

Will balloons continue to be more important than the risks these folks are facing?

[John1956PA]

11. There was an evacuation order for residents in the one-mile radius of the derailment.

After the fire burned itself out, the evacuation order was lifted, and residents were permitted to return to their homes a few days ago.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

14. Vinyl chloride smoke is going to be dangerous for more than a 1 mile radius.

[John1956PA]

15. My brother lives in farm country 2.5 mile due east of the derailment site.

I live in a town eleven miles due east of the site. Our phones displayed repeated notices that the evacuation zone remained at a one-mile radius. I thought that there was chance that it would be increased, but it was not to be. In Pennsylvania, beyond the one-mile radius, there is no significant population center until one reaches Chippewa Township six miles to the southeast of the site. In Ohio, half of the East Palestine community (i. e., the western half) lies just beyond the one-mile radius of the site. The weather radar and satellite views of the area in the days following the derailment showed that the smoke proceeded through Pennsylvania on a SSE course not far from the OH-PA state line. This course took it over uninhabited Pennsylvania State Game Lands for the most part, and some farmland as well. Evacuation of all of East Palestine would have meant more searching for accommodations in the mostly rural area. As time goes on, it will be interesting to learn more as about the authorities' decision-making process regarding the evacuation.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. The Biggest Danger...

...which burning doesn't solve is the micro/nanoscopic particles of low molecular weight PVC.
Vinyl chloride reacts with atmospheric moisture to form a polymer but uncontrollable mass transfer results in termination at low oligomer weight.
That stuff isn't there to burn. It's already on and in the ground so not part of the fuel.
It's a moderate health hazard but a substantial environmental issue. Geez, there's too much microplastic in the environment already.
And, if in fact they burned in place, burning without scrubbers concerns me because of the release of hydrogen chloride & chlorine gasses.
The initial release to prevent explosion seemed wise to me. This remediation method is highly suspect.

[WarGamer]

13. Leave it to P-GAC to drop the fact bombs...

Appreciate the explanation, always learn something reading your posts.

[Disaffected]

16. Thanks but I don't understand the burning without scrubbers part.

If the stuff was in a state that could be delivered to a scrubber, why not just haul it away instead of burning it? I assumed the vinyl chloride had escaped from ruptured tank cars and was lying on the ground where it was ignited.

[John1956PA]

18. I think vinyl chloride is a gas at ambient temperatures.

I believe it was being transported in liquid-nitrogen-cooled vessels to maintain it in a liquid state.

[Disaffected]

19. Ahh yes, might explain why it was ignited rather than collected and moved off.

From Wiki:

"Because of its low boiling point, liquid VCM will undergo flash evaporation (i.e., autorefrigerate) upon its release to atmospheric pressure. The portion vaporized will form a dense cloud (more than twice as heavy as the surrounding air). The risk of subsequent explosion or fire is significant."

I'm still wondering though how it could be collected and fed to a scrubber.

[John1956PA]

20. There might be portable scrubbers which consist mostly of fire hoses spraying a mist of water. n/t

[ProfessorGAC]

25. There Are Actually Portable Scrubber Systems

I describe them in post #21. I've seen them myself, so they're available.
One I saw was at a monomer plant, so that would be perfect for VC.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. There Are Flatbed Scrubbers

Some large chemical plants have them as emergency equipment so they can move it to where needed in the event they're needed.
For small venting (mild overpressure) applications, sites will use catalytic combustors. In a case like vinyl chloride, there would be a very small scrubber to turn the liberated chlorine into salt. (Usually potassium chloride, sometimes sodium, just like table salt.)
But, in a case where substantial amounts need to be mitigated, they roll up a couple of flatbeds with the hardware.
In this case, emergency teams would have the connection pieces to hook to the railcar valve at the bottom, the vent valve (has to be opened to unload the car to prevent implosion), or the ePRV (emergency pressure release valve).
They'd decide which to use by the orientation of the car. Is it on its side, leaning toward the top? Leaning toward the bottom?
I've never seen a portable combustor so I'd think we need to scrub the chemical itself not just the combustion off-gas.
Maybe(!) they could quick fabricate a flare to burn it, then run the off gas to a portable scrubber to mitigate the chlorine.
There are loads of smart people who do thus for a living & train regularly doing drills & simulations. There has to be a safe way to do this.

[Disaffected]

27. OK but if the stuff is still contained within the tank cars,

why not just pump it as is into truck tanks and haul it off? If, as another poster suggested, it was refrigerated to maintain it as a liquid, and the refrigeration failed (not surprisingly), it would gasify, have to be vented and ideally then burned and the combustion gases scrubbed somehow. In the absence of a portable combustor, as you suggest, there seems to be no alternative to either let it vent and risk a large explosion or, ignite it on site which is what they apparently did.

Why the need to transport large quantities of this dangerous material to begin with? AFAIK, vinyl chloride is only used for manufacture of PVCs so why not do the entire process at the same or nearby location?

[ProfessorGAC]

30. I'm Highly Suspicious Of That Report

I have seen a LOT of railcars transporting hazardous materials. I have never seen a refrigerated tank car. Not once.
Where would the power to run refrigeration come from?
Volatles like VC are shipped under pressure. For VC, the pressure needed to liquefy is only around 45psig. Tank cars designed for pressure service easily handle that.
It's a liquid in the car, with no cooling needed. Even ammonia isn't shipped refrigerated & it has a MUCH higher vapor pressure. (About 120psig at room temperature. )
So, I am dubious that the reports of refrigeration are accurate.
As to why it's not used in situ: it's not really practical from a financial standpoint. The monomer process is capital intensive, so to make it viable, the manufacturing sites have to be huge. If every PVC maker had their own monster plant, the scale-down cost would be immense.
Then, making all the polymer in one place would make for massive facilities with massive multimodal transportation hubs taking up huge amounts of real estate.
That's true of ALL hazardous substances. If everything were consolidated like that, who would want to live there?
You would like a solution to avoid things like this? So would I.
I think the solution is tighter regulation of the carriers so they can't simply ignore needed upgrades & repairs because they're inconvenient. Millions of tons of hazardous goods are moved and safely. The cause here seems more slovenly maintenance & disregard for safety than any inherently uncontrollable risk.
BTW: there are goods even more hazardous than VC and we've heard little about incidents like this one.
Make disregard for safe handling & care a crime, then prosecute violators. That will greatly reduce the risk of recurrence. Jail time & a ruined life would go a long way to dissuade people from only thinking about the next quarter's earnings report.

[Disaffected]

31. I've never seen one either but

there are heated tank cars (eg. molten sulphur transport) or maybe they are just insulated? There are refrigerated semi-trailers ("reefers" ) that have a fuel powered refrigeration unit and I suppose the same could be applied to rail tankers but, as you mention, if pressurized tank cars do the job, why bother?

Yeah, correct about the vinyl chloride and PVC manufacturing - apples and oranges.

As for upgrades & repairs, has the cause of the derailment been determined? It was first blamed on antiquated brakes but then on a defective axle. Maybe it was avoidable, maybe not.

[ProfessorGAC]

32. Not Accurate

I've been in dozens of large manufacturing facilities.
Heated tank cars are not heated in transit.

For high melt materials (like your sulfur example, or malefic/phthalic anhydrides) where boiling, hence potential overpressure, is not an issue:
The loading spots allow for preheating with steam coils. Then, they're filled. At the other end, steam is hooked up to remelt.

For things like sulfur trioxide & others with a narrow liquid range, electrical panels are sometimes used to ensure no overheating occurs. But again, they are allowed to freeze. It's actually safer to transport that way because it won't spill.
I participated in 3 incident investigations where small releases occurred but the standard was none. Every incident, no matter how minor, we're investigated at those sites. They all involved heated tank cars. There is no practical way to supply either heat or cooling to railcars in transit.

Perhaps they could do it in Europe where everything is electric so they have access to energy everywhere along the train.
But, I didn't see any such thing there either.

As to trucks vs. rail, the sheer structural demand on a railcar requires steel gouges thar have inherently higher pressure capabilities. In addition, I have not seen a refrigerated tanker truck, and my dad worked at a dairy.

Yeah, his truck had a reefer unit to get cold milk to the supermarkets but that's a different situation than a trailer.
I have seen trailers with heating panels to keep high viscosity materials from getting too thick. But, those use the coolant off the tractor, except in one case was a generator set was used in the winter, on each trailer. (The load has to be reduced by the weight of the gen set, so they were removed April through October).

It's much easier to put heat panels on a truck, run with electricity. In the case of cooling, we would need pumps and coolant, adding even more weight. (BTW, that whole application was not in hazardous service. The material was most closely related to a highly concentrated laundry detergent. Super interesting physical chemistry on that stuff.)

They make high pressure trailers, too. We've all seen them carrying propane, ammonia, carbon dioxide, liquid nitrogen, and the like. Since some of those are refrigerants, I'd think you'd agree it would seem silly to refridgerate a refrigerant!

As to the accident cause, I too have seen nothing definitive. It's just that history suggests that few rail incidents were unpreventable. But, it's certainly possible it's just random chance.

[Disaffected]

33. I'm not sure what you are referring to as

"Not Accurate". Unless I misunderstand your post, there definitely are refrigerated semi-trailers.

As to heated tank cars, I did qualify it with "maybe they are just insulated".

[ProfessorGAC]

34. I'm Done

You're just being combative. I'm trying to provide information based on decades of exposure to the transportation of goods by rail & truck.
You just want to argue.

[Disaffected]

35. You misunderstand my intentions.

I'm just trying to clarify what you are saying.

In case you are still contending there are no refrigerated semi-trailer trucks(?):

https://www.truckpaper.com/listings/trailers/for-sale/list/category/20/semi-trailers-reefer-trailers

If that is incorrect, I apologise. Anyhow, enough said all 'round.

[John1956PA]

36. I'm sorry for being wrong upthread about the means of keeping the substance liquid during transport.

As pointed out by a poster with much experience in this field, the ambient gas, vinyl chloride, is transported in railroad tanker cars which are adequately sealed to hold the substance under pressure to the point that it manifests itself in a liquid state. I was wrong in suggesting that another means was utilized to hold the chemical compound in a liquid state. I appreciate the exchange of knowledge which occurs in DU threads like this one.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Somebody Already Partly Addressed It

It's only a liquid under pressure. By hooking up to a vent line, it could be taken as a gas to a combustor and then scrubbed. Or, just scrubbed into plastic. (There are mechanical issues with that.)
Finally, the more times a hazardous chemical is transferred, the greater chance a release occurs.
It's likely much safer to mitigate in-place.

[FakeNoose]

17. Another thought I had - will this affect the ozone overhead?

All the black smoke and icky chemicals rising up quickly into the upper atmosphere. I mean, it's good that it wasn't windy last Friday. But maybe that's bad news for the ozone layer.

[ProfessorGAC]

23. Probably Not

Obviously, particulates aren't environmentally great, but I don't see an ozone effect.
While chlorine radicals can react with ozone, the bigger issue is fluorine which isn't present here.
The bigger issue is hydrogen chloride from the combination of chlorine & moisture. Serious health issue & environmentally unfriendly.
Freon was an ozone problem contributor because it's so darned stable until it gets radicalized by uV at high altitudes.
Chlorine gas doesn't have much chance of getting to very high altitudes without finding something with which to react.

[Disaffected]

28. I imagine the volume of released gases

would also not be nearly sufficient to have any noticeable ozone effect especially considering the dilution that would occur as it approached stratospheric levels (if in fact it did go that high).

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Accurate

It's very doubtful it gets that high given the propensity to react with water.

[Sympthsical]

26. Thank you for the insight

Your perspective aligns with some other things I've been reading on it re: remediation method.

A lot of, "Wait, they're doing what?!"