I got into it with a gun humper on another site; which can be an echo chamber of stupidity...

[Javaman]

Last edited Thu Feb 16, 2023, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)

(disclaimer: I in no way advocate violence of any sort. I don't own any weapons, let along any gun. I was playing devils advocate in the conversation below. and if this does cross the line, if asked I will remove this post. please ask before you alert)

it was regarding issues with violence, robberies, etc...

then it devolved into "need to protect ourselves from the gob'ment!!"

this is where i stepped in

I asked how owning a gun will protect you from the government?

and he shot back, "oh are you one of those woke, assholes?"

Me: nope, just asking a question.

him: because they are taking away our rights.

Me: what rights?

him: our gun rights. My gun is mine to protect myself from them.

(I know, no logic)

Me: that's a statement not an answer, what rights do you believe are being infringed upon?

him: all our rights, look it up. (he actually used that)

Me: I have. there has been basically, zero legislation that is of any substance to truly limit a gun owners rights.

him: well they control our lives and we have to fight against that!

(at this point I could have baited him with Jan 6th but I didn't want to go down that hole, I chose another tact)

Me: so the government controls your life. Huh. I find that comment interesting, considering that corporations basically control every aspect of your life: from the things you eat and watch. they brainwash you into what you like and what you don't like. what you believe and don't believe about life and the people around you. Why aren't you angry at them and use your 2nd amendment rights there?

he didn't respond, but did block me. LOL

I'm convinced that the right wing gun nuts, while they aren't the brightest bulbs in the lot, rally against the "gob'ment", because they can put faces to their imaginary problems. with corporations, not so much.

[NutmegYankee]

1. What they refer to as a loss of rights is a loss of power over others

They cannot stand that they do not have complete control of the culture and the power to order others to follow their worldview. Their worldview has a strict hierarchy and they believe they are above other groups.

[TheRealNorth]

8. This is definitely true in some cases

[JHB]

38. Whenever you hear a conservative or libertarian rail about "government tyranny"...

...it inevitably turns out that the complaint is that government is constraining their ability to be tyrants in whatever they consider their "rightful domain."

[Diamond_Dog]

2. Did they feel that way about the gubmint when Trump was in office, I wonder?

[live love laugh]

3. The corporations-as-evil concept doesn't register with the de-educated.

It took me some time to understand what it meant. Most of them don’t even know what a corporation is.

[treestar]

4. The government hating is an excuse really

for not wanting to live in a democracy - that is to say, the government enforces laws that were made by legislators, who were elected. So it's really their fellow citizens who want the rule they consider so oppressive. They don't want to follow those rules - that's the beginning of the criminal mindset. I do what I want, without regard to whether society wants me to do it.

[blm]

5. RightWingers are, at their core, perverted control freaks.

Happy to increase the power of corporations over this country as long as it means restricting the rights of people they don’t like - anyone who would vote for Democrats.

[patphil]

6. People like that are not comfortable with rational thinking.

It's far easier for them to accept the "truth" from a source that tells them what they want to hear.
To me they're playing the role of brain dead zombies. They're easy prey for far right leaders that take advantage of their inability to engage in critical thinking, and use them as a club to beat on whoever they want to harm...either politically, socially, religiously, or physically.
As you said, someone else puts a face on their problems, stokes their fears into anger and rage, and points them like a gun at whomever they want to attack.

[Chainfire]

7. Something has to be responsible for their misery and failures...

The government, the Jews, the Mexicans, gays, the liberals and most of all the blacks.... They need someone to hate. The German Nazis gave their people the Jews. The American Nazis gives their followers a smorgasboard to choose from. (just in case you don't have Jews in the neighborhood) If I fail to achieve what I want in life, it must be someone else's fault. Hate radio and TV have been telling them this "truth" since the early 1990s so it must be true...

They have no vision of the type of living hell they would create if they got everything that they think they want. Many of them think that they can shoot their way to freedom and prosperity.

[yardwork]

20. This is it, exactly.

Except that this brainwashing began in the late 1970s. It's been accelerating in recent years.

People are allowing themselves to be brainwashed by watching Fox News, listening to hate radio, and hanging out on internet sites that peddle lies and misinformation. The entry points are usually around racism, I've noticed.

It turns out that a lot of Americans are mad that they can't say ugly, mean things to and about Black people without getting in trouble. Almost 100% of the trouble comes from the private sector (lost jobs, lost friendships) but it's easier to blame gubmint.

[MagickMuffin]

9. What about the RIGHTS OF OTHERS?

What about state governments banning books, banning college courses, banning abortions, banning drag shows, banning voting rights

I’m sure there are more examples but it’s too early in the morning for me to think of more.

[old as dirt]

40. "The rights of others"

Free speech activists are quite familiar with that phrase.

In an educational environment, it comes up in the “Tinker Test”.

Mary Beth and John Tinker Describe Their Reactions to Supreme Court Case Success

[MagickMuffin]

44. Thx for the video

Tinker Standard, I certainly hope more people learn about the Tinker Standard.

Our side never works to suppress, oppress anyone else’s private affairs, yet the other side preaches the exact opposite. They want to control everything we do, Bedrooms behaviors ✔️ Reading materials ✔️ Dress Codes ✔️ Bathrooms ✔️ Religion ✔️

Any activity they don’t like will be challenged. We should be prepared for it!


Thx again for sharing the video.

[Farmer-Rick]

56. Interesting thanks for posting

It was kind of like they won the battle but lost the war.

[Javaman]

11. it's really hard to tell sometimes LOL nt

[AllaN01Bear]

19. they act like a bot when in publik echoing and parroting wo a decent answer.

does not compute .

[AllaN01Bear]

24. si.

more important things .

[scipan]

48. Doesn't negate us telling our truths.

I think it's important to challenge ideas when you see them, at least if the person seems potentially open.

I often don't do this myself because it's usually so frustrating and I'm basically a lurker.

But I have had a handful of positive interactions where we each acknowledge the right to the other's opinions.

[moreland01]

13. Gun humpers who talk like that

have OBVIOUSLY never been in the military. Cause if they had been, they would know that the government
wouldn't fight AR-15s with AR-15s. Our government has weapons that would make this
"man" quake in his shoes, throw down his toy gun and pee his pants.

[Farmer-Rick]

57. Yup, they bombed strikers, why do they think the government

would Not bomb them?

There was a huge strike at Blair mountain coal mine and the miners union there went on strike. And the US government sent bombers to drop bombs on the striking miners. The miners at first actually thought the government was coming to help them.

[duhneece]

14. I'm using this first chance I get

Thank you

[wss2001]

15. Misdirected anger

I’ve often thought that people target the government with their anger versus corporations.
Most people work in the private sector and spend a majority of their time at their job. It’s hard for people to think of their jobs as controlling their lives. Sometimes I think our country has a humongous case of Stockholm syndrome.

[progree]

16. Virginia gov. (R) blocks bill banning police from seeking menstrual histories

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143034938

The Republican governor of Virginia, Glenn Youngkin, appears to have thwarted an attempt to stop law enforcement obtaining menstrual histories of women in the state.

A bill passed in the Democratic-led state senate, and supported by half the chamber’s Republicans, would have banned search warrants for menstrual data stored in tracking apps on mobile phones or other electronic devices.

I'm frankly scared to death of RW governments. They are a clear and present danger.

[peppertree]

27. +1

This is Gilead-level totalitarianism.

And I have news for Repugs: It soon becomes like a snake eating its own tail.

In their kind of fascist regime, none of them would eventually be safe. All it would take, is a phone call from some spiteful someone.

[Grins]

17. Loved this part!

him: all our rights, look it up. (he actually used that)

Me: I have. there has been basically, zero legislation that is of any substance to truly limit a gun owners rights.

him: well they control our lives…

So he’s admitting there is ZERO legislation limiting gun owners. “What a maroon,” a famous rabbit once said.

[AllaN01Bear]

26. this?

[moonshinegnomie]

18. I had a "friend" who was a gun hugger

In his view guns were the most important thing in the world and he would die before he gave his up. I blocked him

[peppertree]

25. I hear you. I had a friend who liked to say "2nd Amendment - just in case."

'Just in case' meaning, 'just in case lib'ruls impose martial law on us God-fearin' people and shit gets real'.

The paranoia among many Republicans these days is Hitleresque.

Which is ironic, since GOP presidents (Bush II and Trump) are the only ones who've recently considered invoking Continuity-of-Gummint or the Insurrection Act - and for mere convenience!

[old as dirt]

41. I call it the "Second Commandment".

It’s a religion to them.

[peppertree]

42. Sad, but true.

If they knew what Dr. Freud thought of men overly attached to their firearms.

Big-time compensating (but then, who could blame them).

[Peacetrain]

22. You have the patience of a saint may I say!!

You handled that beautifully

[peppertree]

23. The paranoia among many Republicans these days is Hitleresque.

[FakeNoose]

28. It's possible that he was baiting you in the same way you baited him

I don't know, but unless you've engaged with this same person before ... it's possible he was looking to start an argument and you jumped right in.

I believe there are wingnuts out there that just want to find "libruls" to argue with. They'll post anything to provoke that argument. One might even call it "catfishing" but it's just for politics and nothing else. You beat him at his own game.

If you don't play along with them, they'll just go somewhere else. I used to run into characters like that on the Yahoo chat boards, and it really got tiresome.

[usonian]

29. It's a cult.

Words have no connection to reality. They are used only for effect ... group identity. And reinforced by 24 by 7 media indoctrination.

Arguing with them is pointless. Concentrate on GOTV efforts that will have positive effect.

Breaking cults is arduous therapist work. Do what doable. And win.

From one of my first posts. It is about racism, but guns and racism are joined at the hip.

---
This is from the epilogue of "Stamped From the Beginning", by Ibram X Kendi.

Emphasis mine:

Protesting against racist power and succeeding can never be mistaken for seizing power. Any effective solution to eradicating American racism must involve Americans committed to antiracist policies seizing and maintaining power over institutions, neighborhoods, counties, states, nations—the world. It makes no sense to sit back and put the future in the hands of people committed to racist policies, or people who regularly sail with the wind of self-interest, toward racism today, toward antiracism tomorrow. An antiracist America can only be guaranteed if principled antiracists are in power, and then antiracist policies become the law of the land, and then antiracist ideas become the common sense of the people, and then the antiracist common sense of the people holds those antiracist leaders and policies accountable.

[Caliman73]

30. This is true for any right winger on any position.

I said in another thread a few days ago that Conservatives are rightfully angry, as many of us are, BUT they always have the wrong attribution to their anger.

They are angry at immigrants who are coming into the country and "stealing" jobs. They are not angry at the corporations who go to places like El Salvador, set up shop, and exploit people for profit. Or, at conservatives who support right wing dictators who brutally oppress people making their lives so bad, they are willing to travel thousands of miles, away from all they know. They aren't mad at stupid drug policies that make the cartels billions of dollars to the point where they can rival the power of governments.

When it comes to healthcare, they are angry, but they blame the uninsured, or obese people, or ... anyone else. They don't see the stupidity of privatized healthcare and private for profit insurance, which has NO benefit to actual healthcare received.

They see crime as a result of "those people" usually Black and Brown people, instead of the result of people systematically being blocked from access to any opportunity to better their lives.

They see the government as the problem, except they keep electing the exact assholes who propose the legislation that keeps them stuck and angry.

It is a problem of attribution.

[SuperSkinny]

31. They usually shoot back with

Shall Not Be Infringed.

[old as dirt]

39. It's what school children deal with every day.

And the intimidation robs them of their free speech. No longer can they feel safe to express themselves. All they can do is shut their mouths and hope to survive another day.

An Iowa school suspended a student for wearing a T-shirt depicting a gun. Now she's suing

Des Moines Register




snip-------------

Mary Beth Tinker: Some clothing bans OK



Mary Beth Tinker talked about free speech issues to students from various high schools in Iowa during a program making the 50th anniversary of the Tinker vs Des Moines free speech case in 2019 at the State Historical Society of Iowa building in Des Moines.

The student's lawsuit draws many parallels to Tinker vs. Des Moines, which began in 1965 when lead plaintiff Mary Beth Tinker, then a 13-year-old student at what is now Des Moines' Warren Harding Middle School, was suspended along with other students for wearing black armbands after a school board order not to.

Yet Tinker herself told the Des Moines Register she thinks the Johnston district is likely to win if the lawsuit reaches a judgment on the merits.

"Under (the Tinker decision), there is ample room for the censorship of messages that impinge on the rights of others, the often-overlooked second part of the Tinker test," Tinker said in an email, pointing to the Supreme Court's holding that "conduct by the student ... which for any reason ... involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech."

Tinker said she believes wearing a shirt to school depicting a gun might constitute such an invasion of the rights of others, not just of other students, but of teachers, staff and visitors to the school.

But another expert, Adam Steinbaugh, an attorney for the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, said he doubts a court would accept that argument.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2023/02/08/pro-gun-rights-t-shirt-prompts-suspension-iowa-student-sues-schools-second-amendment-free-speech/69881634007/

[hadEnuf]

32. The goverment tries to do things somewhat fairly and Righty can't deal with that.

All they know how to do is kiss ass, steal, cheat, act like tyrants and back stab their imaginary "way up" the ladder. They watch the Trumps and the corporate boys and think they will be successful by acting just like them.

They have no guts to stand up for what's fair or right in their work or anything else. They just go home and fap over FOX news and then terrorize their wife and kids to get out their frustrations. And the gun stuff just makes them feel more powerful and invulnerable, because right-wing media tells them it does.

[mjvpi]

33. Expanding definition of Woke.

If you are Woke, you believe the the words "well regulated" are actually in the second amendment and are more important than the implied right to own a personal arsenal.

If you are Woke, when you hear the line “I need them to protect me from the government" you assume that this is an indication of paranoia, which is a classified mental illness.

[Evolve Dammit]

34. They are locked and loaded. Brains were turned off decades ago after a steady diet of Rush and Fox.

[Martin Eden]

35. RWers have been conditioned to hate & fear the "gob-ment" BECAUSE

A government that is truly Of, By, and For THE PEOPLE is the greatest threat to the malefactors of great wealth who hoard so much of the wealth generated by the labor of ALL citizens.

They use that great wealth to purchase politicians who keep the rules rigged in their favor, and to purchase mass media that manipulates The People into hating their own government and each other.

To maintain their wealth and power they purposely keep us at each other's throats BECAUSE their oligarchy would be dismantled if The American People were able to unite and demand that our elected representatives first and foremost serve the COMMON INTERESTS we all share.

[JHB]

36. Also, the "gob'ment" is less likely to take legal action...

...because what is "free speech" against the government can be slander and libel against a private entity.

Plus, they don't want to sound like a commie in front of their fellow circle-jerks.

[JohnnyRingo]

37. I have guns, but anyone who thinks they use theirs against the govt....

...would be turned down by the 995 Plan from Colonial Penn.
It would be wiser to put that money into pre-burial insurance.

I have to laugh when I hear some old moron who couldn't pass a physical for mailman think he'll go all commando against the National Guard. Buy a tank asshole.

Indeed, showing a gun in offense against the government is the swiftest form of gun control.

[old as dirt]

43. Tank Rampage in San Diego on the CBS Evening News 1995

Buy a tank asshole

[JohnnyRingo]

45. I remember that

I recall too how there was a bank robbery in California where the two robbers had assault rifles. They had the cops outgunned at the time and left the cops scurrying to a local gun shop to procure counter offensive weapons.

Upon realizing the general public was better armed than cops on the streets, the govt equipped law enforcement that equalize the craziness they can be up against these days. Tanks? A medium size city near me got a tank a couple years ago from Govt surplus after the Iraq war. Those 2nd amendment kooks better not get too big for their breeches, they may not have the allies they assume.

[lonely bird]

54. I always think

That these gun junkies don’t realize a hellfire missile fired from a drone doesn’t give a damn how many guns you own.

[Skittles]

46. gun humpers are PARANOID COWARDS

seriously pathetic people

[70sEraVet]

47. I was talking to a fellow veteran last week who was telling me about his gun collection

That he had it insured for $25,000. And he was not a rich man.
I was too shocked to say anything, but thought afterward (of course), that i should have said, "They have therapy for that!".

[keithbvadu2]

49. "Look it up" means 'I've got nothing to back up this bullshit'.

[Skittles]

50. they "looked it up" on Fox News

yup

[Fla_Democrat]

51. an echo chamber of stupidity...

Sounds awful.

[RocRizzo55]

52. My response gun humpers usually is

Do you really think you have enough force to overcome the Police, National Guard, and the US military? And if you are “protecting” yourself and loved ones from vandals and such, remember that you will be in a heap of trouble, and lose an awful lot in legal fees, and time, even if you win in court.
It shuts them right up.

[Kaleva]

53. What did you accomplish?

[Javaman]

58. was the point to accomplish anything?

I tried having a conversation then he went off the rails and I called him out.

not all interactions have to "accomplish" anything.

[Kaleva]

59. You got 124 recks for doing nothing

I'm not calling you out personally as I don't know you at all and what you do but I think it's interesting that doing essentially nothing illicits praise . May be an indication why little constructive action takes place. Similiar to sending thoughts and prayers

[Javaman]

60. I feel your frustration

And I get it.

We live in a society that is pretty much governed by social media.

And as such it’s all talk and no action.

That’s why I said I wasn’t tying to accomplishing anything, because I knew nothing would be accomplished.

That’s the inherent flaw of social media, the belief people have that it matters.

We believe money matters because people put faith in the US Government.

And the same rings true with social media, but with a fatal flaw; peoples comments are worthless but people think they aren’t .

And as such, the misplaced faith people put in social media is solely based on this imaged belief that their words of wisdom mean something. They mean nothing and are soon forgotten in a few days, if that long.

The only benefit of social media is the obsessive tweeting by TFG and his minions that will help lock them up and hopefully him too.

i enjoy DU because there are, for the most part, reasonable people on here. But its still is an echo chamber for, in my opinion, venting spleens to cut the stress in our lives.

[Kaleva]

62. Thank you for your articulate response!

Your post is an example of why I come here most everyday.

[oldsoftie]

55. Protecting against the Govt may have been legit 200yrs ago.

But today, your small arms are little use against a govt with tanks & jets & rockets. Sure, you could out up a fight, but not much of one and not for long.
And I AM a gun owner; I just have zero thoughts about "protecting myself from the govt". If the govt wants to do something detrimental to me, the only thing I can do about it is vote those out who are pushing 'it"

[albacore]

61. A little history here....

The oppressive Government our Founders were talking about was the British and their Indian allies. The Founding Fathers were aristocrats... landowners... slaveholders. They were not interested in arming the common man... except to hunt and protect themselves on the frontier and from invasion by the Brits and Indians ... again. That's what that militia thing was about. This “Insurrection Theory” is the root of the present day arguments of the 2nd Amendment, and it goes against both logic and history.

Insurrection Theory states that the 2nd Amendment was included because the founders had learned through their own history that nothing could defeat a well-armed citizenry. They had learned from the Revolutionary War, and the so-called, “Minutemen” that an ardent and motivated citizenry, in desperation of defending their own rights, would defeat any standing army. There are several problems with the line of reasoning. Washington said: “The militia . . . are dismayed, intractable and impatient to return home. Great numbers have gone off, in some instances by whole regiments." The Revolutionary War was won by the regular army, not militias.

What the founders learned from the Revolution was the exact opposite of what 2nd Amendment supporters claim.
Hamilton argued the the need for a militia for the exact opposite reason that 2nd Amendment advocates believe. The militia is a safeguard AGAINST invasion or insurrection or invasion, not a safeguard FOR insurrection. In fact he even arguing that if there is an insurrection in one state, the federal government can use its power to march a militia from one state to another to put it down. In the Whiskey Rebellion of 1791, the militia was ordered by President Washington to do exactly that. Angry about what they felt were unfair taxes on their whiskey, farmers rebelled and rose up in arms in Pennsylvania. Washington ordered the militias from Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania to put it down, and they did. When the 13,000 troops arrived, the 500 insurgents went home. President Washington literally led the troops, riding at the front!
The framers were NOT worried about the tyrannical federal government, they were worried about insurrection inside the country, like the Whiskey Rebellion and Shays’ Rebellion and, in the South, slave rebellions.
Federal troops have been used countless times to put down labor and racial and civil uprisings. A good example would be when Eisenhower nationalized the Arkansas National Guard and sent army paratroopers (82nd Airborne) to enforce a Court order allowing the blacks to attend the school in Little Rock.
And Federal troops they will do it again if those 2nd amendment people persist in their insurrections.
On edit:
People who take up arms against the US Government are - by definition - traitors, just as much as the Americans who join Al Qaeda. Let’s not forget, our government is elected, and simply because a group believes strongly in their cause, they have to abide by those elections. Americans have a history or accepting the results of an election.... even if they don’t like the outcome. If they revolt against that government... well, the Civil War resolved that question.
Forget all that “just rebellion” stuff. It ain’t gonna happen.