I predict a Florida "brain drain". Based on my colleagues.

[Coventina]

I just returned from NYC, from a national / international conference in my field.

Based on the different presentations, and conversations with my colleagues, I think Florida is going to experience a brain drain of intelligent people fleeing the state.

The most striking conversation was one I had with a pregnant woman who currently works in Florida. However, she is planning on leaving the state because she wants to send her child to public schools that actually educate.

There were many presentations and conversations that went in this vein.

I don't think Florida will prosper if all the educated people move away.

[Phoenix61]

1. The two biggest industries are tourism and agriculture.

Don’t need a lot of smart people to keep those running.

[Coventina]

2. Maybe not at the bottom levels.

But somewhere up the chain smart people will be required.

[Phoenix61]

3. True, they will attend private school as will their children.

Just like the “good ole days” DeSatan seems hell bent on bringing back.

[Coventina]

4. True. In the case of the woman I spoke to she didn't want the private school option

She said she wanted to support public schools.

Sadly, I'm sure that there will be "smart" people who will go the private school route.

[Mariana]

14. A lot of the private schools are Christian schools that don't teach science.

Boarding school could be an option, I guess.

[Escurumbele]

71. I don't think that is true, a lot of the Christian schools that I know DO teach science.

Where did you get that? Not sure if there is a study that shows that as a fact, if there is one I would like a link, definitely want to know.

[Escurumbele]

70. Why assume that intelligent people can afford private school in Florida?

I know of a private school in Florida, it costs $21,000.00/year, that is middle-school to High-School. You have to be very rich to afford that. The pre-school and up-to-fifth-grade those kids attend is about $14,000.00 per year. When the kid is ready to go to middle-school, the family has spent $84,000.00 from Kinder to 5th grade, then when they graduate from High School they have spent $168,000.00, and that is assuming the cost per year will not go higher on any of those, but the trend has been that the tuition goes up every year.

Anyway, to get your kid out of high-school costs you $252,000.00

I don't think all intelligent people can afford to spend (invest) that kind of money on kids school. Just imagine if you have more than one kid. Just multiply that number by the number of kids.

If you Google private schools in Florida you will find that they are not cheap.

[Farmer-Rick]

98. My father was raised in dust bowl poverty

He was on the ground floor of NASA development. I have never met anyone as smart as he was.

So, no, the smart ones won't necessarily be able to afford private schools. In fact the smarter folks don't normally come from the richer families. So, like my father, they will buy their time until they can get away from the stupids and forced poverty.

[appalachiablue]

101. +1

[d_r]

5. I know that the statistics likely say that

but I think the biggest industry is really getting retirees with sweet blue state pensions, like cops and firefighters and so on, to move there.

[Phoenix61]

9. True that! nt

[TheRealNorth]

10. Exactly

[mitch96]

24. I agree. After living here most of my life in Fla, I have met a PLETHORA of retired

Last edited Tue Feb 21, 2023, 09:31 PM - Edit history (1)

cops and firefighters.The tax advantages for seniors is just too tempting.. The politics still suck...
m

[blueknight73]

90. What I have discovered

After living years in Florida, you may not pay state tax, but they get you every other way possible. My home insurance just doubled, my car insurance is ridiculous, groceries are out of sight. We're putting our home up for sale April 1st and I can't wait to leave this hellhole

[lark]

96. Good luck!

I totally get why you are moving, we would too if all our family wasn't here. Luckily we are retired and our children are in their 30's and neither of them have children and that's probably not going to change. If my kids were school age, we'd either move, home school or try to find a liberal private school that was affordable (if such things even exist).

[former9thward]

36. The weather gets people to move to states like FL and AZ.

No one needs to get them to move there.

[Coventina]

43. Here's the thing I don't get about Florida,

The day I spent in Miami was one of the worst days of my life.

I *hate* living in Phoenix. I truly hate it.
But Miami is the ONLY place I have ever been that made me homesick for Phoenix.
I have never been so hot in my life as that day in Miami.
I don't understand the appeal of living there at all.

[former9thward]

50. I love living in the Phoenix area.

I spent many miserable weather years in Chicago. Never again. I would not live in FL because of high humidity. That is what makes the heat there uncomfortable. That is not normally a problem in AZ.

[Coventina]

52. My husband is from Chicago. His dad moved the family here for the weather.

I grew up in Seattle. That's what I love: Cool weather, lots of rain & clouds. Lots of green.

The desert feels like death to me.

Miami was like hell, though.

[Chainfire]

60. Believe it or not, there are hotter places in Florida than Miami!

Inland, away from the sea breezes gets just damn miserable in the Summer.

[Danascot]

67. We have this thing called air conditioning

Nobody in their right mind leaves their air conditioned space to go out on a hot day in Miami.

[Coventina]

78. People with jobs? Errands to run? Kids who want to play?

There's lots of reasons why people need to leave their homes on hot (or cold) days.

[oldsoftie]

94. Well, thats because Miami kinda sucks. For several reasons.

But you know that

[shrike3]

85. "I don't have to shovel snow."

That pretty much seals the deal for a lot of people.

[Samrob]

77. That attracts many until they realize they have to pay out of pocket for almost every damn thing

from trash collection to paved roads.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

88. exactly..unfortunately

[hlthe2b]

17. You need a lot of highly trained medical personnel for all those aging retirees... and they are NOT

going to want to practice in such a medical science-denying, anti-intellectual, anti-abortion state. The COVID denial is bad enough, but having one's license put on the line continually at the whims of some politician--who barely made it through high school biology-- is hardly an enticing option.


So, these RW science-denying/conspiracy-driven elders have really brought on their own downfall, IMO.

[Phoenix61]

23. Yep, as usual DeSatan didn't think his actions

all the way through to the end. The top notch medical care is one of the reasons retirees like Florida. There’s Mayo, Moffit, MD Anderson, Shands, etc. They are going to have a hard time staffing when there is already a national shortage for nurses and other medical staff.

[not fooled]

64. He thinks by the time the sh*t hits the fan

and the medical care significantly declines, he will be long gone, to the White House.

[CaptainTruth]

49. My area, near Kennedy Space Center, is a bit different.

Boeing is moving their aerospace headquarters here. Lockheed Martin employs more than 9,000 people in the area. The Navy is moving all their submarine missile testing here (out of the submarine base at Port Canaveral). A bunch of smaller aerospace companies are building facilities in the area.

Just a few bits of info I found:
"The state ranks #2 in the U.S. for the number of aerospace and aviation establishments and is home to more than 17,000 aerospace-related companies that employ 130,000 Floridians.Jan 20, 2021"

From the US Dept of Labor:
"Florida is known as the premier location in the world for space technologies. Virtually every major aerospace company and defense contractor in the U.S. and abroad has operations in Florida. The state has been a center for aerospace research and testing since 1946."

And:
"Orlando is at the center of an enormous cluster of top aerospace and defense companies."

Yes, I live in the "aerospace bubble" around Kennedy & it's not like the horror stories you hear about MAGA idiots everywhere. Heck, very few folks where I live are from Florida, most relocated from northern states, & my neighbors are from South Africa.

I have also heard that DeSantis is not making our aerospace industry happy. They're smart & well-educated & they see his crap for what it is. They also need to attract smart well-educated employees, & he's making it harder for them.

[llmart]

75. +1

My son lives in Orlando but works at KSC as a software engineer. He'd rather live anywhere else than Florida, but he loves his job and he'll likely stay as long as NASA will have him. He's a staunch Democrat and all of his friends are also. He can't stand DeSantis.

[Tumbulu]

63. agriculture is highly skilled

I don't know enough about tourism to comment, but I am sick of Ag being dumped on.

Even the so called "unskilled labor" used in ag requires a lot of knowledge and training and physical strength.

I've worked in ag for 45 years.

[Farmer-Rick]

99. I 100% agree with you

When my spouse was alive and we were actively farming organic for a profit, we were constantly reading and studying about plants and organic methods. There is just so much to know. Each plant requires it's own equipment, methods, protections, disease control and harvest processes. Each local has their own heat, water needs, seasons, frost protection, disease controls. So, you got to be careful about educational information describing growing in just their specific area like the northeast or northwest.

I guess if you only grew one thing in huge quantities and used only chemical methods, then it would require less studying, reading and testing.

We had one field dedicated to testing out new cultivars. My spouse called it our test lab. It was like a giant experiment every day.

Then there is marketing and finding sources to sell your produce at that has not been taken over by a corporation. We had to be always one step ahead of the huge corporation so as not to compete with them.

[Tumbulu]

102. thanks! well said! I happen to believe that we organic

producers and researchers are a particularly inventive, creative and intelligent group. After all we both figured out how to produce all these crops without the use of the cheaper synthetic inputs. But we also created the entire system of certifying them so that we could fund the more expensive inputs with the sale of these products.

I would add though, that the large scale producers also rely upon a great deal of technical and specialized info along with a skilled labor force- particularly in the maintenance and operation for the equipment that allows their operations to produce at such scale.

In my area we have both large and small farms, specialty and commodity crops mixed in. And lots of plant breeders. There are absolutely no unskilled workers in ag around my parts.

[Warpy]

66. I would call them healthcare and tourism, in that order

because Florida is still a retiree magnet and that's not going to change. Retirees don't have to worry about what twaddle the kiddies are being taught instead of history because their own are long out of school. They don't care about much but no income taxes and having that SS check direct deposited monthly. Once they get there, they realize they can't afford things like AC and if they rent, they're screwed, but short term, that's it.

Agriculture used to be a much bigger deal down there but if you've ever flown over the state, you have to notice how little ag land is still there and how many housing developments cover what was once orange groves, cattle ranches and truck farms.

[Pacifist Patriot]

91. It has (had) several of the fastest growing start up areas in the country.

Also home to a region of high tech aerospace. Healthcare is often the largest employer in the area through the state.

The brain drain threat is serious in a number of sectors that would destroy Florida.

[JPPaverage]

95. Umm..you try running a farm

You say it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to keep agriculture running. Try running a farm sometime. My guess is that you wouldn't be able to do it. Bookkeeping, time management, meteorology, etc. are all involved. Not to mention mechanical knowledge and old fashioned hard work.
I'm a 65 year old guy who grew up in farm country. And I'm most certainly not a magat nor even a republican. Not even a farmer. But I've known a number of farmers and I am very thankful for them. Because I like to eat.

[bucolic_frolic]

6. It's expensive when students leave too

A college student must bring $20k+ in spending to a local economy.

[former9thward]

39. College students are not leaving.

They go to schools in AZ and FL for the weather.

[LymphocyteLover]

48. I'm sure some are

[Irish_Dem]

69. If students want to get into graduate school, they will not be thinking about Florida.

And females have already been pulling applications from Florida.
They don't want to be stuck with an unwanted pregnancy.

[live love laugh]

7. ✔️. Mississippi v.2 is in development.

[Baitball Blogger]

8. I don't think they want educated and intelligent people in this State.

They have their own way of doing things. Their backwater circles skirt the rules for themselves and demand respect for their position in the community. They don't want that to change.

[harun]

93. Cheap labor is always their panacea

[we can do it]

11. Happened in Ohio- people don't have to live with that shit.

[LuvLoogie]

12. This assumes that all fascists and bigots are uneducated.

It's systemic. Judges and legislators -- lawyers are all in. So are a lot of educators and clergy.

[obamanut2012]

13. I'm one of them

Starting new job in CA in about ten days. I am in higher ed. Wide coming out a few weeks after me, also in higher ed. New jobs also in higher ed, pay waaaaay more. SOFL is MORE EXPENSIVE than California now, except for water.

[Hekate]

21. All the best to you and your wife. I hope California is good to you!

[Coventina]

34. Wow! I didn't realize So. FLA was more expensive than Cali!

That's crazy!!



Especially since it'll be underwater in another decade.....

[former9thward]

42. Maybe you can link to a scientist saying it will be underwater in another decade.

That is anti-science since none say that.

[Coventina]

46. I wasn't intending that to be taken literally.

But south Florida is going to continue to be hit hard with hurricanes, flooding, until it is eventually claimed by the sea.
And that WILL happen, unless things get turned around. That doesn't look like happening any time soon.

Probably more high rise condos will collapse or close for safety concerns.

[aggiesal]

68. Here's one that says in 2050 ...

And this is from a Fox anti-fact News affiliate.

https://www.foxweather.com/extreme-weather/study-rising-sea-levels-flood-nearly-650000-oceanfront-properties-us-by-2050

[former9thward]

72. So about 30 years from now -- not within a decade.

1) this says coastal property owners "may" lose "some property" as the tides increase. One foot is some property.
2) It certainly does not say south FL will be "underwater".

[aggiesal]

73. Parsing words, it appears you won't be happy until you find a credible document that says MIAMI ...

will be flooded in 10 years. So I can say it may, be flooded in 10 years. Which is a correct statement because Miami may be
flooded in 10 years, and you'll have to find a document that states that it will not be flooded in 10 years.

There is this phrase ''Dry flooding".
Which is when streets are flooding without rain fall under bright sunshine.
This happens because the water is rising and coming up through the sewer system.
That is happening right now in Miami.

The wealthy that have beach front properties are selling them off and purchasing property in Miami that is at least 10 feet above the current sea level. They are over paying and gentrifying neighborhoods now to beat the rush.

[former9thward]

74. If the "wealthy" are selling off properties then by definition the "wealthy" must be buying them.

You certainly aren't suggesting poor people are buying those properties are you?

[hlthe2b]

15. Anecdotally, I've heard that a lot of big businesses in FL are having trouble recruiting and keeping

prospective highly trained employees with families. This is from an acquaintance who is a head-hunter in medicine and technology. But, really, why would you want to raise kids in Florida? Their education will be "lacking" (at the least) and highly propagandized more to the point. And universities in Fl are soon going to be assumed "second rate." My guess is academia will start leaving as well. Frankly, I could not stand the constant drumbeat of hate, lies, and intellectual disdain coming from their politicians.

[republianmushroom]

16. yep

[Sky Jewels]

18. Thus guaranteeing more Republican rule in perpetuity...

[Duppers]

19. Just posted on another thread...

Yep.....It's Alabama South with just more trailer parks. Until you get to the rich highrises.

[Conjuay]

35. I believe the term yu are looking for is:

“Baja Alabama”

I used to call it “Baja Georgia” but Georgia’s been doing us proud in many ways.

[Duppers]

51. 👍 Love it.

My good friend who has lived on Florida's west coast for 35+yrs is always complaining about all the Repubs there.

(Why does she live there? That's where the IRS stationed her.)

[Evolve Dammit]

44. The income disparity is on full display in FL for sure. Not exclusively FL by any means. n/t

[Duppers]

54. It does seem to be more concentrated there. nt.

👍

[Hekate]

20. Your pregnant colleague might also be thinking of the hazards of delivering her baby in a red state

[Coventina]

37. Good point.

[mcar]

22. I live here and I agree

Parents, even conservative parents, want their kids to be well-educated. They also want them to attend reputable colleges (the Liberty U parents aside). Here, that mostly means UF, FSU, and USF, and UCF - the largest state universities.

To get in, they need AP credits. But students and parents will start looking elsewhere for college, too, as DeathSentence decimates public university education as well.

Yes, most FL jobs are in tourism. But, there are about 1000 people a day moving into the state - most retirees. I don't know the #s, but a lot of young people are moving out of the state - not only because of the education system, but because they simply cannot afford to live here. Rents and home prices are out of control and wages aren't even close to keeping pace.

What FL is facing is an aged population with not enough people to care for them.

[Coventina]

40. So, Japan, except dumber?

I'm sorry you are having to see your home destroyed by small minds.

[mcar]

53. That's about it.

[GP6971]

26. Welcome Back! n/t

[irisblue]

27. booch_breath, seems a RW troll 🍕

[Lunabell]

31. well, that's redundant!

For booch, that means having more words than necessary. Right wing and troll mean the same thing.

[Sugarcoated]

28. Love to see magats waste their time

[irisblue]

29. You like pizza?

[BonnieJW]

30. I thought

the educated people left years ago.

[Takket]

32. i'm really surprised blue states aren't activly recruiting highly skilled people to move

i would be buying ad time in red states highlighting our freedoms trying to entice people to move.

there are nursing shortages everywhere. skilled trades shortages everywhere. lots of opportunities to get smart people that make a lot of money (and hence pay a lot of taxes) into your state

[Captain Zero]

65. Michigan's governor has told Hoosiers to move

There if we don't like Indiana.

It's not out of the question for me.
I don't really care for our fascist's here.
And it would keep Michigan blue if a lot of us did.

Indiana is going to remain stupid red in any case.

[shrike3]

86. I've thought about it, too.

We'll see.

[roamer65]

89. C'mon up.

I like liberal Hoosiers and Buckeyes.

[Ellen Forradalom]

33. That's a feature, not a bug

For the state’s leadership

[OMGWTF]

38. Welcome to Floriduh; it's not the heat, it's the stupidity!

[Evolve Dammit]

41. Good one!

[bdamomma]

82. maybe

the "heat" is melting their brains.

[Tickle]

45. actually florida is not doing as bad as one would think

New Jersey is the top state for education. It’s followed by Massachusetts, Florida, Washington and Colorado to round out the top five. Six of the 10 states with the best education systems also rank among the top 10 Best States overall.

Learn more about the Best States for education below.

Here's the link https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education


RANK STATE
HIGHER EDUCATION
PRE-K-12
1

New Jersey

2

Massachusetts
25 2
3

Florida
1 16
4

Washington
2 11
5

Colorado
5 7
6

Connecticut
43 3
7

North Carolina
7 15
8

Wisconsin
15 8
9

Nebraska
10 13
10

Utah

[Coventina]

47. Give it 5 years, once these new policies have a chance to make an impact.

Scores based on right now or past years are not reflective of the direction Florida is headed.

[EmmaLee E]

62. + 1

[LetMyPeopleVote]

55. 4 things to know about Ron DeSantis' idea to slash AP courses in Florida

This is sad. You qualify for National Merit Scholarships on the Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test, or the PSAT/NMSQT and SAT. Florida has some very low SAT scores and so it may not matter if Florida students are not eligible for National Merit Scholarships. National Merit Scholarships are hard to get but are nice on a resume.

In addition, AP scores can get you placed out of classes. They did not offer AP courses at my school a long long time ago but my kids each got over 20 hours of AP credit. One child used these hours to do three majors since that child had a full scholarship and another child graduated in 3 years. AP credits are very valuable to many students.

The test that DeathSantis wants to use as a replacement for the SAT is a test used mainly by home schoolers.

Link to tweet

https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2023/02/18/4-things-know-about-ron-desantis-idea-slash-ap-courses-florida/

As DeSantis noted in 2021, the College Board is a major player in providing accelerated academic courses to high school students.

In 2021, the state had 199,428 teens sit for 366,150 AP exams, with 50.9% scoring a 3 or better on the 5-point scale. Many universities across the nation offer students credit for those scores — a critical factor for families looking to lower tuition.....

In addition to its AP courses, the College Board administers the SAT college entrance exam. Just over 190,000 Florida high schoolers took the test in 2022, representing 87% of possible students. Its average score was among the lowest 10 in the nation.

The ACT college entrance exam, administered by a separate nonprofit, is also available but has much lower participation

I am not surprised to see that the test that DeathSantis wants to use in place of the SAT is a test being used by home schoolers.

High-ranking Department of Education officials have hinted in social media that an organization called Classic Learning Test, or CLT, is a potential option to fill in for SAT.

Primarily used by home-schooling families, Classic Learning Test is touted by supporters as an alternative “that orients people to the perennial truths of the great classical and Christian tradition.”

DeathSantis may end up pissing off some parents who have high performing students who would benefit from AP credits and scholarships

[NNadir]

79. AP courses changed my son's life.

They energized him in high school, helped him to make close friends with the best and brightest in his high school, kids who encouraged one another to excel.

He got an outrageously good offer from a very good school making it very affordable; connected easily with outstanding professors who took an interest in him and guided him, and gave him the recommendations he needed for fabulous internships.

He entered college as a Sophomore, was able to complete a Master's degree in 4 years, the last year (Masters) for free, and got a great offer for his Ph.D. program, no TA requirements, pure research.

I don't think any of it would have happened without AP courses. It certainly wasn't me.

I can't believe that Florida voted for this.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

81. My kids also enjoyed AP courses

[former9thward]

87. States with the highest and lowest SAT scores

Highest

1. Minnesota – 1263
2. North Dakota – 1258
3. Nebraska – 1246
4. Iowa and Kansas – 1243 (tied)
5. Utah – 1238
6. Wyoming – 1233
7. Montana – 1225
8. Tennessee – 1220
9. Kentucky and Missouri – 1219 (tied)

Lowest

43. Delaware – 984
42. Idaho – 985
41. District of Columbia – 987
40. Florida – 993
39. New Mexico – 996
38. Texas – 1003
37. West Virginia – 1007
36. Illinois – 1007
35. Rhode Island – 1011
34. Michigan – 1031

https://www.learner.com/blog/states-with-highest-sat-scores

[Chakaconcarne]

56. Pretty easy prediction...already happened.

[SYFROYH]

57. Not in academia. We produce too many new PhD desperate for full-time employment

and, the increasingly unicorn-like, tenure-track position.

Way too many PhDs.

[cab67]

58. Some of my academic colleagues in Florida are seeing an impact on college applications.

Colleges are seeing fewer applications from out of state, and there are real worries that the best high school graduates from the state will go elsewhere in larger numbers.

(I should acknowledge - this is what my colleagues have told me. I haven't researched the numbers, so take it for what it's worth.)

[bronxiteforever]

59. OBGYN care is definitely going to suffer

My son’s best friend just completed his residency and he said that abortion bans are having a major impact on where new OB GYNs want to practice.

I saw several articles that discuss the same issue.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/26/us-abortion-ban-providers-doctors-leaving-states

No matter what your politics, if you are having children, you want available ob care.

[llmart]

76. Just this morning...

I heard on the Today Show or Good Morning America that the two fastest growing states in the US are Texas and Florida. Couldn't figure out why they had to do a piece on that. Trying to put lipstick on a pig? I think they were basically referring to the younger generations who want to live in a warm climate. Incidentally they did happen to mention "and Georgia and N. Carolina".

[bdamomma]

80. If other states

follow this fascist trend there will be mass exodus.

[WinstonSmith4740]

83. I understand what you mean.

I completely agree. But with that being said, this is the state that has given us Rick Scott, (who was elected AFTER his Medicare scam came to light), DeSantis (twice), and of course, Matt Gaetz. I'd say that brain drain started a long time ago.

[jaxexpat]

92. The silver lining?

As Florida gets dumber, Georgia and Alabama get smarter, at least for a few hours.

Ta-daaa, be sure to tip your waiter.

[SMoss]

97. Educated people are not going to FL

Every winter we spent 3 months in FL. Not going again. A lot of our thinking friends are also not going to FL for the winter. I estimate we spent over $25,000 each winter there. I am not putting that money in the FL economy.

[JI7]

100. Werent they already lacking in higher education and resesrch institutions

and didn't have growing new tech sectors like Georgia and North Carolina .

Of course this will make it worse .

[Wounded Bear]

103. I think the typical RWer has a different concept of "prosper" than you do...