Elie Mystal: The Real Problem With Marjorie Taylor Greene's Call for a "National Divorce"

[Nevilledog]

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/the-real-problem-with-marjorie-taylor-greene/


No paywall
https://archive.is/GmxY4

Over Presidents’ Day weekend, House GOP darling Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia caused yet another firestorm by calling for a “national divorce.” She tweeted: “We need to separate by red states and blue states and shrink the federal government. Everyone I talk to says this.”

Greene wasn’t entirely wrong about the last bit: There are many people, on both sides of the political divide, who are interested in secession. I, for one, know I’m supposed to join in the chorus condemning these remarks, which seem to invite a second Civil War, but it’s honestly exhausting trying to organize a free and fair society with these MAGA millstones hanging around our necks. Part of me wishes they would leave or get raptured or drink the Kool-Aid already and rid us of their stupidity.

And I’m not alone. You can’t post a story about Texas or Florida without a liberal openly advocating for secession or at least posting the Bugs Bunny gif where he cuts off Florida and sets it adrift. That’s because the arguments against secession are actually quite poor, at least philosophically. Yes, yes, I’ve read my Abraham Lincoln. I’m aware that “a house divided cannot stand” and all that. But one might ask what, precisely, modern-day America stands for. We are not really worried that a foreign enemy would attack a fractured and weakened territory, one side after the other, in order to eventually subjugate both, are we? Our current union allows us to project military and economic power on a global stage, but it’s not at all clear that we use that power for good.

Splitting up the country and turning one half of it into “South Canada” while leaving the other half to devolve into an insular, broke, Christo-fascist petro state doesn’t actually sound like a bad idea for the world. At the very least, it would make the Super Bowl more interesting.

And yet, the core problem with secession today is the same as the last time it was tried. White conservatives like Greene are fairly open about their desire to create a white homeland in the New World: Greene literally requested disunion from “the sick and disgusting woke culture issues shoved down our throats” and “the Democrat’s [sic] traitorous America Last policies.”

*snip*

[claudette]

1. Who gets

custody of the kids?

[Javaman]

29. LOL I wrote this same comment on reddit LOL nt

[claudette]

43. 👍

[KPN]

56. That's pretty funny really.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Good, thoughtful argument.

[KPN]

3. Great article. Mystal actually goes on to point out the ludicrousy of

proposals to split the nation. Here are a couple more juicy paragraphs that summarize the reality of a failing GOP:

For all her bluster and braying, Greene and her people are losing. They’re losing the cultural debate; they’re losing the political debate; they’re losing in the so-called “marketplace of ideas.” She doesn’t want a “divorce”; she wants white supremacist rule over as large a conglomeration of land and people as she can get, and she can’t win that in the United States as long as everybody who wants to vote is allowed to.

Greene wants power and privilege that her side can no longer win at the national level, so she wants to redefine the nation so that it only includes the white supremacist rump of people who agree with her. That makes Greene no different from the first guy to make her argument, John C. Calhoun. Let’s hope she’s not as successful.

Elie Mystal is right as usual. And the only reason any of us on the blue side muse about splitting along blue and red is we're just sick and tired of having to put up with and carrying these sorry-assed, ignorant and malignant, mother fuckers.

[Ferrets are Cool]

7. This x 1000

besides, if they DID secede, they would lose everything they love to complain about.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. "white supremacist rump of people"

[KPN]

54. Yeah -- that line jumped out at me too. Perfect!

😁

[MayReasonRule]

4. The progeny of two lead paint chips...

..has greater intellectual capacity than the sordid depravity that is Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Darwin is tapping his foot...

So called Red States, are generally speaking minority gerrymandered Nat-C monstrosities.

Throwing away these state's majority's right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness makes no more sense than throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Absolutely fucking no way is this a reasonable idea to entertain, much less to be proposed as a sentient solution within a forum dedicated to fighting our nation's delusional maelstroms within.

Don't eat the paint chips.

Put, them, down.

May reason rule.

[Zilli]

11. I agree with you,

however, on first reading this insane tweet I thought "Yes please, bye-bye" and then I settled on "May reason rule." Thanks for your input and your metaphor.

[MayReasonRule]

26. Right on y'all!!!

Laissez bon temps rouler!!

[sanatanadharma]

5. Everyone continues living in the same house

However, we will have border checks between bedrooms and need visas to visit the bathroom.

As things are now, we have socialism where we take (taxes) based upon who has, and we give (funds) based upon need.
The kids in the red rooms are not mature enough to be left alone in the house.

[Samrob]

6. If we, blue state, tax contributors can take our tax dollars with us...proceed.

[Doc Sportello]

8. Mystal points out the main problem with this idiotic notion

Although it's not in the snip, he comes down hard against the notion because minorities in those states would be the ones to suffer the most:

snip

"But this country’s history with population relocation is… not good. It’s not even a uniquely American problem. Every time in human history that mass population relocation has been tried, it has led to suffering. You can’t compel people to move (even when that compulsion is “voluntary,” a decision to leave because their rights have been revoked) just because arbitrary new lines have been drawn on a map. Every attempt to do it ends up as a humanitarian crisis and a low point in world history.

...

And it would happen here, again, just like it has everywhere and every time else. Even if the New Confederacy allowed Black people to leave (unlike the last time this trick was pulled), they wouldn’t be allowed to go with their wealth intact. They certainly couldn’t take their land with them. They’d have to take cut-rate prices for their homes or land or businesses, and then use those meager funds to set up Scandamerica” or whatever we’d call ourselves. And that’s just for the people of color with the means to relocate. What of the people without liquid capital? Would the New Confederacy pay their relocation costs? Would New America pick up the tab? And for how long? What if a Black family wanted to give the New Confederacy a chance, and only realized after a few years that the white leaders’ promises of “freedom” extend only to the white citizens? How long before the New Confederacy builds an East German–style wall, not to keep immigrants out but to keep workers in? How long before they adopt a North Korean–style information blackout, so that their residents don’t even know what’s happening in the rest of the world?

I’m focusing on Black people because of the historical antecedents to Greene’s plan, but the same story would play out for all people of color, members of the LGBTQ community, and women who found themselves trapped in “Jesusland.”

...

The thought that people living in these states, with lives and families and communities, should wind up on the wrong side of the pluralistic government divide just because a few white Republicans hatch a secession plan during the dying embers of their rule is ludicrous. Liberals and progressives should be fighting for Georgia and North Carolina and all the rest, not consigning them to the Dark Ages because Greene and people like her are odious. As Michael Bolton says in the movie Office Space, “Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.”

[judesedit]

34. I'm with you.

[temporary311]

45. I imagine

making minorities suffer is one of the main selling points for people like Empty.

[Ferrets are Cool]

9. Back in the REAL Civil War, thousands were called upon to take up weapons and fight. And die.

All this in order to keep states FROM seceding. That would not be enough reason for me to take up arms against repugs who wanted to leave the US.

[LiberalArkie]

10. It would only become a civil war if after the red states left the union that the blue states wanted

them back.

[Justice matters.]

13. Problem is, there are a LOT of "blue-state" people in the red states.

Millions of them, mostly livin' lovin' studyin' and workin' in large cities...

Unless the extra funds sent to demanding red states (paid by the generous blue states) will be only given to the "blue-state people in red-states" to relocate and live until they can settle and/or work there, or retire there (and f all Federal funds given to needy red-states), it's not realistic.

[speak easy]

47. Yes. They would find common cause with Putin.

[pnwmom]

12. And we also can't get away from the nutty red voters in our own blue and purple states.

We have to deal with people like that no matter what.

[central scrutinizer]

53. Yes, eastern Oregon wants to break off and merge with Idaho

[OMGWTF]

14. I've been saying for decades that living with these red state fidiots is like a bad marriage.

They are willfully ignorant, ungrateful for all of the help the blue states provide, they are abusive, embarrassing, and gross.

The real tragedy is the outsized power these fidiot states have with two senators for each state, despite tiny populations. LA county alone has more people than several red states combined. That is fked-up.

[Hekate]

33. Can't get past the Republicans yet

[slightlv]

15. I'm one of the dummies who a long time back

has said I wished these magats would take their people and move to someplace all their own. I can't see ever living peacefully with them. And I -am- tired of them holding the rest of us back. I'm sick to death of their whining. I'm heartsick over all the deaths they cause, directly and indirectly. I'm tired of their hatred of women, and I'm tired of being fearful of them coming after me (again) for my Pagan beliefs.

I'm not ignorant of the challenges this would entail. I'm also not stupid as to how it would have to work. We'd have to have a wholescale assisted movement of people among states. It would not be cheap, and no one could be left behind where they did not want to live. And likely, this would bankrupt both (new) countries.

And, in the end, the new white supremist states would stay bankrupt and declare war on the United States of America just to get what we have. Because face it, they don't know how to govern, and even Ayn Rand took Social Security when push came to shove. Libertarianism and Laisse Faire Capitalism doesn't work for anyone but the ultra rich. Most of the people in those states are going to find they don't fit that square. They're gonna find themselves to be the poor white sharecroppers. And they ain't gonna like that so much. Their warfare is gonna spill over to us, and I don't know how to stop that.

So, I'm back to just fantasizing their god would just rapture the lot of them... except he supposedly only does that to the holy ones... and I don't think there's a holy one among them. (LOL)

[wryter2000]

19. They way I look at it

We don't honestly want them to secede. We're so sick of their racism and hatred and just general BS, it seems like heaven to think we might be able to banish it somewhere.

I would like to ask them, though, if they leave the US, who's going to deliver their mail?

[CaptainTruth]

16. Plus, there's no constitutional provision for secession.

Everyone seems to forget this, but see Texas v White, 1869, where it was ruled that during the Civil War the confederate states didn't actually seceed from the union because the Constitution doesn't provide any mechanism for a state to unilaterally seceed.

[Hortensis]

17. :) Frivolous in spite of the usual wistful attraction. But, can't resist saying,

the blue states would continue as the United States. Of course.

And our liberalism-based federal government, constitution and body of laws they despise would remain in place in the United States. Of course. ALEC, Heritage Society, etc, and other predators would be providing the new confederacy new ones so the MTG types wouldn't have to worry about cobbing some together on their own.

And the vast part of the military that couldn't be allowed to fall into their hands and would be needed to protect the U.S. from them, and them from opportunistic aggressors. Of course.

[flashman13]

20. Do you want to know how to defeat idiots like MTG, et. al.? Completely cut off their air time!

[bdamomma]

57. makes sense

to me why give this ignorance a spotlight, let them go back under their rocks.

[Hekate]

22. Mystal makes excellent points

But she won’t go alone. Now, as in the past, the white folks who want to secede will take a whole lot of Black people with them. The New Confederacy dreamed up by people like Greene includes the states with the largest percentage of Black folks by population, and the largest raw numbers of Black people. Mississippi is 39 percent Black, Louisiana 33 percent Black, Greene’s own Georgia 32 percent Black. Texas is only 14 percent Black, but 3.9 million Black people live in Texas, more than anywhere else. Florida has the second-highest number of Black residents, at 3.8 million.

What happens to all of these people, who will still be a distinct numerical minority, after secession? It’s the question secessionists don’t have a good answer for. Conservatives assume they will simply continue to oppress and disregard their minority populations, consigning them to permanent second-class status in their white Valhalla. Liberals, fancifully, envision a world of voluntary migration, where people of color move to the parts of the United States that are still safe and sane.

But this country’s history with population relocation is… not good. It’s not even a uniquely American problem. Every time in human history that mass population relocation has been tried, it has led to suffering. You can’t compel people to move (even when that compulsion is “voluntary,” a decision to leave because their rights have been revoked) just because arbitrary new lines have been drawn on a map. Every attempt to do it ends up as a humanitarian crisis and a low point in world history.
…….
…. but the same story would play out for all people of color, members of the LGBTQ community, and women who found themselves trapped in “Jesusland.” …… And why should anyone have to? Greene and other white secessionists proceed from the false premise that they enjoy stable majorities for their white supremacist views and are frustrated only by a federal government that is propped up by the population density of “blue” states. In reality, it’s Greene who holds the minority viewpoint, not just nationally, but also in her home state. Is Georgia even a “red” state anymore? The last few US Senate elections suggest that it’s not.……. The thought that people living in these states, with lives and families and communities, should wind up on the wrong side of the pluralistic government divide just because a few white Republicans hatch a secession plan during the dying embers of their rule is ludicrous. Liberals and progressives should be fighting for Georgia and North Carolina and all the rest, not consigning them to the Dark Ages ….

[PaulnFortWorth]

24. National Divorce

I live in a bright red state (texas). I remember well that Kamala Harris had her bus run off the road in texas because the local police wouldn't provide an escort, effectively giving a thumbs-up to trumpanzee terrorists.

I have been notified that I've been kicked off Nextdoor.com for posting a response to a post claiming that employees at fast food places don't know if they're male or female causing food orders to be incorrect. I didn't think the taste of the food would be different either way.

Texas prides itself on being an open carry state and shootings are not uncommon. Abortion is illegal and the attorney general has been facing criminal charges since 2014. The biggest scam in texas (that we know of) occurred last year when electricity providers overbilled by EIGHT BILLION. We only know about it because a phone conversation of a government official bragging about it to the providers.

A large number of "christian" churches are openly anti-gay and anti-abortion while ignoring the teachings of Jesus.

If republicans can divide America (as per Putin's wishes and campaign donations) then texans will turn against each other and kill off anybody who dares oppose republican christian nationalism. Not to mention no healthcare, no social security, no HUD, no food assistance (SNAP) and no partnership with federal authorities like the FBI. And in order to finance the new government texas will have a state income tax.

The Lt. Governor Dan Patrick has openly called for senior citizens to die for the texas economy.

But we'll be joined by New Mexico, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida and a few others in anti-liberal racist policies.

[area51]

32. Yeah,

"Dan Patrick" called for seniors to die, but that coward wasn't willing to face Covid and die himself.

[Elessar Zappa]

42. Don't include New Mexico in your list.

We’re a blue state with a democratic governor and a democratic legislature.

[Mickju]

51. I was just about to post that.

I'm in Oklahoma and would probably flee to NM if this ridiculous plan were implemented.

[Nululu]

25. Battleground states created many of the worst killers and robbers

Not just the battle between states. Civil wars are the bloodiest in history.

Be prepared for millions to die from terrorism disease, battles.

I will never advocate for a civil war.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

27. Ugh! The article starts with a really repulsive photo of the shrieker of the House.

Scroll until the howler monkey is no longer on the screen and it's a good article.

[Codifer]

28. There would be

a great swath of russia through the middle of our country.

That is what Khrushchev wanted, rupert murdock implemented, and tfg humped.

May be the far right could all squeeze into Mississippi and Florida.

Then we will build a wall. A fucking BIG one.

[kgray96057]

30. Segregation of the States

Not separation, not a divorce, but an intentional segregation seems to be what she and her bunch want. Basically... Chose the laws and regulations that they don't like, reject the rest, and force the other states to deal with the changes. Not a new country so much as a carve out within this one. So that they don't have to have, you know, create a new government, but rather revise their standing in this one.

So. Couple of my gay friends are married. Hell, I work in the arts -LOTS- of my gay friends are married. What happens if they travel to these states? Their marriage is unrecognized? How about all of their insurances that are set as for a married couple, their credit cards, their bank account access? What about the millions of minorities- racial and otherwise- who live in these states?

These states are almost certainly not going to be run with their equality in mind. The proponents are attacking any mindfulness as "wokeness", purging history of minority stories, and trying to establish their version of a christian, anglo controlled civilization.

Basically, they want to call blacks n*ggers, and treat them like n*ggers again. As well as go after Hispanics and LGBTQ people, and people from non their version of christian religions.

My guess is that these people would _go_. And leaving aside the giant snarl of legal and financial headaches this would cause, what about, well, labor?

And, as so many of these states depend on the distribution of money from the other states- I like "Southern Canada"- what do they do when, as they would, these other states simply refuse to support this "New Jesusland"?

It would be laughable if so many people would not be hurt by this.

[Caliman73]

36. Fun historical fact...

When the Confederate States of America were formed, they tried to model their government as a Confederation of States, like the original Articles of Confederation. They found out quickly that unless they had a stronger central government, states would accept the benefits of belonging, without contributing and they tightened up. They ended up being just as "tyrannical" as they accused Lincoln and Washington D.C. of being prior to the War. They suspended Habeus Corpus, compelled states by fiat, and all of the other things they complained about as "states rights" issues... and yes, all in the name of preserving slavery too.

The problem with right wing extremism is that it cannot exist without a foil. Even if they were to develop their own country and kick out all of the "undesirables", they would just have to find more, so they would have to try to expand (like Germany), and they would keep looking internally and start to turn on each other, the way the Nazi Party did continually throughout the war (SA v SS and all that).

[Artcatt]

37. I'm down. But first, we need to recover

All the tax money used to prop up some of those areas and any high-dollar military gear.

We can leave them the chewing tobacco and the books about…uh..well maybe just the chewing tobacco.

[vlyons]

38. In MTG's ideal world, blacks would be back in the fields picking cotton,

being janitors, maids, and garbage men. Segregation would be the law of the land. But won't she be surprised when the vote is taken away from women?

[tinrobot]

39. I understand the sentiment, but then I think about my liberal friends in red states

What will happen to them?

Doubt it would be good. I get visions of Germany in the 1930's.

[Aussie105]

40. Is MTG an anarchist?

The thinking pattern fits in with the Anarchist Doctrine - tear down the current system, and something much better will spontaneously blossom in its place.

By all means split America into two, but you better have some intelligent plan in place to make it work for the red states.
You know, governance, economy, pesky details like that - stuff the blue states are already reasonably good at.

Just don't come begging for help when another natural disaster hits one of the red states.

EDIT: Reminds me the logic behind BREXIT, and the consequences of actually doing that.

[jaxexpat]

44. The last thing anyone needs to do is provide a rationale wherein national dissolution is survivable.

Either by inference or by minimizing the profundity of one aspect or another, lending any appearance that a divided US is anything less than a total disaster is irresponsible. It must be a joke because the moment it isn't is a profoundly sad one.

[crickets]

46. Excellent article.

Liberals and progressives should be fighting for Georgia and North Carolina and all the rest, not consigning them to the Dark Ages because Greene and people like her are odious. As Michael Bolton says in the movie Office Space, “Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.”

For all her bluster and braying, Greene and her people are losing. They’re losing the cultural debate; they’re losing the political debate; they’re losing in the so-called “marketplace of ideas.” She doesn’t want a “divorce”; she wants white supremacist rule over as large a conglomeration of land and people as she can get, and she can’t win that in the United States as long as everybody who wants to vote is allowed to.

Nailed it.

[KS Toronado]

48. Was at the VFW about the time covid was starting in this Country

The MAGAts were hinting about all Democrats should be killed when one of them asked for my 2 cents. So I
told them the story of this debate I had seen at a city wide picnic in the mid 60's between 8/10 people
(which included some community leaders who's names they were familiar with) who were arguing if there ever
was another civil war would it be the poor against the rich or blacks against the whites. Went on about half
an hour and was getting quite vocal when someone asked about where the Native Americans fit in on all this.

Laughing one said we're never gonna agree so let's have another beer and change the subject which they did.

That's when I said "Never once did they say D's vs R's or vice versa, civil war between political parties is wrong
on so many fronts. Our political parties should be like a husband and wife who sit down at the kitchen table
and hash out their differences and come to a compromise and stay friends. We should do the same."

Got real quiet, then someone changed the subject.

[mercuryblues]

52. She wants a divorce and alimony

[Progressive dog]

55. When will she start packing for her new country?

I hope it will be soon.