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flashman13

(2,378 posts)
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 06:39 PM Feb 2023

When it comes to railroad safety, everyone here is missing the forest for the trees.

By first world standards, the American rail system, like much of our other infrastructure, is totally antiquated. That makes it inherently dangerous.

Why you ask? There are two main reasons. First, the railroad industry is making big profits from their obsolete systems thank you very much, and has no incentive too improve anything that might diminish those profits. Cleaning up derailments is a cost of doing business and its far cheaper than upgrading the system. Second, and here is the main point that is being missed, the Obama regulation that Trump abandoned was so tiny as to be almost meaningless. Its main purpose was an attempt to keep Bakken oil unit trains (100 to 120 cars all carrying that single cargo) from burning down another town such as the 2013 disaster in Lac Megantic, Quebec which killed 47 people. It would have had no effect on other trains. That rule mandated improved braking systems in one class of train while leaving the vast majority of obsolescent trains unaffected.

The entire rail system is obsolescent from top to bottom. Many rail beds are in poor repair from being pounded by ever heavier trains (the same is true for interstate highways). Weakened road beds force reduced speeds and cause trains to shimmy and rock unnecessarily making derails more likely. We are still using creosoted wood ties, an environmental nightmare in themselves, which have to be replaced periodically. As those ties deteriorate trains again become less safe. The rest of the first world systems went to concrete ties years ago. Significant parts of traffic control systems are also obsolete. The vast majority of our rail lines are single track which puts an especially high demand on control systems. Most first class systems are double track. Double track lines can carry more freight, more efficiently, with greater safety. A large percentage of rail cars are old and obsolescent. Many should be replaced a.s.a.p. A contributing factor to many of the destructive Bakken oil fires was that the tank cars were of single walled construction. At least for those specific cargoes, those old tankers have been replaced by double walled tankers that are much less prone to rupture. As far as I could tell, all of the hazardous chemical tankers involved in the Ohio derail were single walled. Improved braking on a few unit trains is meaningless until every car on every train is upgraded or replaced with new cars incorporating the newer systems. Finally, in the interest of maximizing profits, many of the railroads have eliminated employees that were tasked with watching for hazardous situations and preventing accidents before they happen. Companies have not built enough automated sensors to replace those employees. Oh, and BTW, maybe we could create a passenger system efficient and fast enough (not to mention more comfortable), to compete with air travel. All of these changes could help to reduce our carbon footprint.

I have tried to point out how large the problems of railroad safety are. As I have said, there are no real incentives for the railroads to change. A few tweaks to regulations, no matter how well intended, are not going to cure the problems. Too bad we don't have a Congress that is interested in governing. Congress could mandate that all of these safety problems must be comprehensively addressed. The problems really are more extensive than what the industry can address on its own. A massive Railroad Investment Infrastructure bill, spent over decades, budgeting funds for everything from right-of-way acquisition, total rebuilt of the old lines, replacement of obsolescent equipment, especially the electrification of the entire fleet of locomotives to replace dirty diesel units, and hiring of more personnel, would be required to do the job. Not only would that bill be a creator of a vast number of new jobs, it would be and investment in the future of the country in an ever more competitive world.

And if only pigs could fly, I mean ride the train!

70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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When it comes to railroad safety, everyone here is missing the forest for the trees. (Original Post) flashman13 Feb 2023 OP
great post, and thanx onethatcares Feb 2023 #1
Indeed a great post. 3auld6phart Feb 2023 #59
Won't get better until we nationalize the railways. OAITW r.2.0 Feb 2023 #2
I totally agree. Every time I say anything about our need for new, light rail japple Feb 2023 #8
Why not have the U.S. own the rails like it owns the interstate highway system and then tax those LiberalArkie Feb 2023 #13
Privitizing the rails means doing the bare minimum to keep them operable. OAITW r.2.0 Feb 2023 #14
I guess what I meant was the US owning the rails, repair them, bring them up to euro standards LiberalArkie Feb 2023 #18
We are on the same page. OAITW r.2.0 Feb 2023 #19
Nationalization implies that the government also owns the trains, cars and pays the employees MichMan Feb 2023 #38
How do we do air traffic control? OAITW r.2.0 Feb 2023 #39
Ever driven on the roads in Michigan? MichMan Feb 2023 #40
At least nationalize traffic control naitionwide - as air traffic control is. Mopar151 Feb 2023 #60
on ties - Kali Feb 2023 #3
great post and you are right. Southern yellow pine is not the same as oak. Anything to save $. Evolve Dammit Feb 2023 #10
There isn't the lumber to replace those. plimsoll Feb 2023 #23
Yes Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Feb 2023 #32
There are some concrete ties in service. They are generally on freight lines that also carry flashman13 Feb 2023 #35
K&R pandr32 Feb 2023 #4
Hear Hear, Sir The Magistrate Feb 2023 #5
thanks. informative. stopdiggin Feb 2023 #6
why should they change? onethatcares Feb 2023 #7
Thanks for this post - very informative. 2 questions for you: diva77 Feb 2023 #9
I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here but, we no longer have the will to make big projects happen flashman13 Feb 2023 #29
Thanks for your response, flashman. Can't hurt to contact one's congresspeople -- diva77 Feb 2023 #42
This is a really excellent post, flashman13. calimary Feb 2023 #11
Nothing like a good fire to get peoples attention flashman13 Feb 2023 #30
Thank you Wild blueberry Feb 2023 #12
Great info! And I'd like to add how it was a corporation/government...... jaxexpat Feb 2023 #15
You have done well, Grasshopper...... MyOwnPeace Feb 2023 #28
The foxes have always slept with the hens....... jaxexpat Feb 2023 #31
Thank you, flashman. brer cat Feb 2023 #16
Sad, but very informative Pepsidog Feb 2023 #17
Thank you flashman13 .. bsiebs Feb 2023 #20
THANK YOU!!! AverageOldGuy Feb 2023 #21
Excellent post, thanks. 10 years ago a friend who was returning appalachiablue Feb 2023 #22
Freight vs Freight, I'll take U.S. rail over European. nt Gore1FL Feb 2023 #25
When I worked for Union Pacific, we were better than most industries in our utilized technology Gore1FL Feb 2023 #24
can't speak to 'systems' stopdiggin Feb 2023 #54
That wasn't my experience in my 15 years of professional service in the industry. nt Gore1FL Feb 2023 #56
Here are your links Farmer-Rick Feb 2023 #62
I thank you for finding them to support your arguments. nt Gore1FL Feb 2023 #63
I am not sure those are supportive articles though Gore1FL Feb 2023 #64
It kind of depends on exactly what infrastructure and safety you are talking about Farmer-Rick Feb 2023 #67
I am former railroader, you are spot on! Puppyjive Feb 2023 #26
Rentier capitalism? Nasruddin Feb 2023 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author Hiawatha Pete Feb 2023 #33
Dynamic braking has been used since the coming of the diesel electric locomotives. flashman13 Feb 2023 #34
"dynamic braking has evolved and gotten better" Hiawatha Pete Feb 2023 #36
This is how they work Puppyjive Feb 2023 #43
I know, see 2nd last line in my op. Good explanation for others though. n/t Hiawatha Pete Feb 2023 #44
AC Locomotives like the AC4400 which use inverter control have better dynamic braking range Hiawatha Pete Feb 2023 #58
That was very interesting. Liberal In Texas Feb 2023 #37
Your second point is what I was thinking, as well as raising their shipping rate, as well. JudyM Feb 2023 #66
Rail tax of $100,000 per mile traveled would be a start MichMan Feb 2023 #69
Think of all the jobs a federally owned rail system outlet provide. Not to mention flying_wahini Feb 2023 #41
This won't help much in the derailment dept. but, Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #45
Lil ole me thoroughly enjoyed the conversation on this thread. sprinkleeninow Feb 2023 #46
As Bill-O liked to say... czarjak Feb 2023 #47
Pigs won't ride on trains anymore liberal N proud Feb 2023 #48
Great post. Very informative. Thanks. n/t Captain Stern Feb 2023 #49
Excellent post. Thanks for the information. momto3 Feb 2023 #50
Electrification of our railways would take 100 yrs to accomplish oldsoftie Feb 2023 #51
Thank You For This !!! GGoss Feb 2023 #52
So grateful Delphinus Feb 2023 #53
Tort reform also contributes to the RR cutting corners. Dustlawyer Feb 2023 #55
With a better rail system we could reduce oil dependency. twodogsbarking Feb 2023 #57
At least until moving freight by trucks becomes cheaper.... MichMan Feb 2023 #70
Saw this earlier on FB. LiberalFighter Feb 2023 #61
"...big profits from their obsolete systems" Yes. Grins Feb 2023 #65
I think there is a big difference in how we deal with railroads compared to other countries tornado34jh Feb 2023 #68

onethatcares

(16,985 posts)
1. great post, and thanx
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 06:47 PM
Feb 2023

I relate it to having a construction company and sawing wood with a bow saw.

Your crew will never keep up with the guys using the latest tech and knowing the codes so you end up
losing your ass on a lot of jobs.

Sadly, our rail system gets bailed out by their buds in the industry instead of being tossed to the wayside.

Again, thanks.

OAITW r.2.0

(32,103 posts)
2. Won't get better until we nationalize the railways.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 06:50 PM
Feb 2023

We, the USA, should own the tracks,,,just like we own the federal highway system. Then we can dictate minimum effective safety standards.

japple

(10,459 posts)
8. I totally agree. Every time I say anything about our need for new, light rail
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:24 PM
Feb 2023

high speed trains, I get the same argument "the US is too big for a nationalized rail system."

LiberalArkie

(19,779 posts)
13. Why not have the U.S. own the rails like it owns the interstate highway system and then tax those
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:28 PM
Feb 2023

using it.

OAITW r.2.0

(32,103 posts)
14. Privitizing the rails means doing the bare minimum to keep them operable.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:35 PM
Feb 2023

Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:28 PM - Edit history (1)

You know, keep the costs of maintenance as low as possible and accept derailments as a cost of doing business. The ultimate cost to the bottom line is less.....and that is the bottom line. Communities and eclogical damage doesn't count.

LiberalArkie

(19,779 posts)
18. I guess what I meant was the US owning the rails, repair them, bring them up to euro standards
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:20 PM
Feb 2023

and charge the companies using them a toll for using them. A lot like many states turned roads in to toll roads after they were all fixed up.

MichMan

(17,121 posts)
38. Nationalization implies that the government also owns the trains, cars and pays the employees
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 11:37 PM
Feb 2023

as well as manages the day to day operations.

OAITW r.2.0

(32,103 posts)
39. How do we do air traffic control?
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 11:47 PM
Feb 2023

Seems we have that figured out. I'll bet a finite amount of tracks is a whole lot simpler. And no, we don't need to own the trains,cars, and the cabooses. That's where private enterprise comes in. They just need to follow the rules when they use our tracks.

MichMan

(17,121 posts)
40. Ever driven on the roads in Michigan?
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 11:55 PM
Feb 2023

Potholes galore. I hope that isn't the standard for train tracks

Mopar151

(10,348 posts)
60. At least nationalize traffic control naitionwide - as air traffic control is.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 01:14 PM
Feb 2023

Jay Gould invented the holding company as part of the giant land grab and stock scheme that was The Transcontinental Railroad. Maybe it's time for them to come into the light and nationalize the roadbeds.

If for no other reasons than to get maintainence up to a uniform standard, and integrate planning for upgrades with the rest of the transportation system.

Kali

(56,822 posts)
3. on ties -
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 06:54 PM
Feb 2023

the wood has become shit too. used to be oak, used ones repurposed for fence posts lasted for decades. now even new ones off a stack are just crap.

Evolve Dammit

(21,766 posts)
10. great post and you are right. Southern yellow pine is not the same as oak. Anything to save $.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:26 PM
Feb 2023

flashman13

(2,378 posts)
35. There are some concrete ties in service. They are generally on freight lines that also carry
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 10:34 PM
Feb 2023

passenger trains to improve the ride for the customers. Those are on the heaviest traveled corridors in the northeast. They are not used on the long haul transcontinental main lines.

A quick Google search reports that 93% of the ties in North America are wood.

stopdiggin

(15,422 posts)
6. thanks. informative.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:07 PM
Feb 2023

and thanks also for emphasizing that safety regs (not that they're unimportant or unnecessary, but ..) really represent only a very small slice of what 'issues' the rail industry is looking at.

Now - wondering just what we might be able to do to incentivize these companies to bring their industry up to speed? Heavier fines for accidents and violations might be one place - but there have to be other ideas as well.

onethatcares

(16,985 posts)
7. why should they change?
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:12 PM
Feb 2023

the companies get the profits, the states get the responsibility for accidents and John Snow and whoever get richer and richer.

When an accident happens it's a wait it out situation and people die off, companies go belly up and change names, and it gets buried in the sands of time.

The people lose,

Mayflower Arkansas

diva77

(7,880 posts)
9. Thanks for this post - very informative. 2 questions for you:
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:24 PM
Feb 2023

Any insight as to where to start to make headway with any of your recommendations? Maybe other than starting with Congress?

flashman13

(2,378 posts)
29. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here but, we no longer have the will to make big projects happen
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 09:15 PM
Feb 2023

We are talking about a project as big or bigger than the construction of the Interstate Highway Systems. If we were actually sure we wanted to do something about climate change, shaking up and rebuilding our rail system would be a big part of the program.

Eisenhower was a true visionary and after having seen the early autobahns while in Germany, he realized that the country must have an all new, nation wide highway system. He knew that only the federal government could do the job. Ike championed the idea, partially selling the idea by emphasizing that it was a Military Highway, and a bipartisan Congress stepped up and funded the project.

Rebuilding America's railroads is too big for any other entity to do it. Only the Congress has the authority to make it happen. Only Congress can fund it. I'm not advocating any sort of nationalization. My approach would be to mandate the standards that a company will have to abide by and then provide the funding to make it happen. The work on the Interstates was similarly coordinated with the individual states. In my humble opinion, I think the organizations that currently run the railroads have the best ideas of what constitutes their local conditions and needs. They have the specialized knowledge and management skills to rebuild their systems. At present they have no incentive or serious funding to voluntarily take on the project.

At present the U.S. Congress is mostly a mess. Until the Congress cleans up it's act, and We the People sent intelligent, visionary people there to govern rather than engage in performance art, we as a nation will never undertake another monumental construction project. Our infrastructure will continue to decay and all we will see is taillights as the rest of the world passes us by.

And the Climate Change issue, which would only be the greatest construction reset ever, will not happen either. We don't have the will. Sorry!


diva77

(7,880 posts)
42. Thanks for your response, flashman. Can't hurt to contact one's congresspeople --
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 02:09 AM
Feb 2023

at least it's a place to start...

calimary

(89,950 posts)
11. This is a really excellent post, flashman13.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:26 PM
Feb 2023

So much good, clear, relevant, and informative material in there.

Really explains and illuminates. I think I need to keep a copy.

Trains. We seldom dig down into those facts and details. And maybe that’s part of the problem.

 

jaxexpat

(7,794 posts)
15. Great info! And I'd like to add how it was a corporation/government......
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:41 PM
Feb 2023

project which created much of the original rail system and the RR's have a strange immunity to government interference or oversight to their operations. It would require that the existing RR corporations be dissolved for the improvements you mentioned to even get a fair hearing. Our capitalistic system as expressed in the RR corporations solidly prevents improvement on the existing system unless the taxpayers include large profits in their donation toward modernizarion.

MyOwnPeace

(17,546 posts)
28. You have done well, Grasshopper......
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:56 PM
Feb 2023

You have seen the light. The current 'system' - much like the medical/pharma field, has been grown/driven/ground/woven/pushed into the current position because of corporate planning for profit running the 'system' instead of a government that would make plans for the betterment of society.
And listening to 'Saint Ronnie' ("government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." ) and all of the 'Ditto-Heads' that believed that bullshit has led us and locked us into a never-ending cycle of bad ideas following bad ideas.

I truly don't know when somebody will have the ability and courage to stand up and say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" - and even IF somebody did have the guts to do that - find a Congress (government) with enough courage to stand up and fix it.

 

jaxexpat

(7,794 posts)
31. The foxes have always slept with the hens.......
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 09:19 PM
Feb 2023

Reminding the rosters how "masculine" they are.

bsiebs

(958 posts)
20. Thank you flashman13 ..
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:30 PM
Feb 2023

That really opened my eyes... it has been easy to focus on that move to reverse Obama's earlier regulation proposal, but the real problem is so much bigger (as you stated so well). I appreciate it a lot. Thanks!

AverageOldGuy

(3,796 posts)
21. THANK YOU!!!
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:31 PM
Feb 2023

We lived in Japan years ago -- 1990 - 1993 -- the trains were magnificent and I'm certain they have improved.

I was in China in 1979 -- rode the trains everywhere -- a bit creaky but on time, clean, dependable.

appalachiablue

(43,999 posts)
22. Excellent post, thanks. 10 years ago a friend who was returning
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:35 PM
Feb 2023

from a trip to Scandi, mainly Denmark emphasied how modern and efficient their transportation systems are unlike the US- trains, airports, etc. I knew that, and had ridden on the high speed TGV train in France 15 years earlier.

A relative who worked for the C & O years ago said they were eliminating the environmental dept. by the mid- 80s. Soon after Reagan was in office. So it goes unfortunately, unless major changes.

Gore1FL

(22,950 posts)
24. When I worked for Union Pacific, we were better than most industries in our utilized technology
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:46 PM
Feb 2023

I would like to see links to back up the arguments of obsolete systems. I have been out of the railroading business for 20 years, but we were cutting edge when I worked there.

stopdiggin

(15,422 posts)
54. can't speak to 'systems'
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 09:40 AM
Feb 2023

but I think almost any objective measure would say that large parts of rolling stock and track itself - are a long ways off from 'desirable' standard. Track in particular - is routinely criticized by the people that work on it. That's hard to square ...

Farmer-Rick

(12,638 posts)
62. Here are your links
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 01:44 PM
Feb 2023

This one is from last August and the rail problems almost shut down a huge egg producer.

A US Freight Rail Crisis Threatens More Supply Chain Chaos

https://www.wired.com/story/a-us-freight-rail-crisis-threatens-more-supply-chain-chaos/

This is from last December:

"Even the railroads themselves admit that the nation's current freight service is a problem, mainly because of fewer calls to pick up or drop off freight cars, routine, prolonged delays and the general unreliability that plagues the industry, its critics and customers."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/11/economy/freight-railroad-service-problems/index.html

This one is from June of last year:

"So how exactly did the U.S. rail system go from cutting-edge to a global embarrassment?"

https://www.glimpsefromtheglobe.com/features/op-ed/how-america-killed-the-train-u-s-transportation-is-woefully-behind-the-rest-of-the-world/

This one is from December a year ago.

Efficiency and the Decline of American Freight Railroads

https://homesignalblog.wordpress.com/2021/12/27/efficiency-and-the-decline-of-american-freight-railroads/

The info is all over the internet and pretty easy to find



Gore1FL

(22,950 posts)
64. I am not sure those are supportive articles though
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 01:56 PM
Feb 2023

These articles are about service levels, not about the safety of the infrastructure.
One was about passenger service and thus unrelated to freight safety.

Your OP doesn't match my experience, though I can't speak to trends over the last 20 years.

Farmer-Rick

(12,638 posts)
67. It kind of depends on exactly what infrastructure and safety you are talking about
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 03:28 PM
Feb 2023

Are you talking about the increase in deaths from crossing railroad tracks? That's more of roads and bridges issues.

Are you talking about dead railroad workers? Well fewer workers makes for fewer deaths.

There is some very derogatory info out there on it. Do the research yourself with the Google machine.

But my argument is our railway system is far from the best in the world or the most modern otherwise service wouldn't be so awful and put farms at risk.

The one about passengers lumped in freight.

Puppyjive

(985 posts)
26. I am former railroader, you are spot on!
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:53 PM
Feb 2023

Crew fatigue is why I resigned. Still have my resignation letter.

Nasruddin

(1,248 posts)
27. Rentier capitalism?
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 08:55 PM
Feb 2023
As I have said, there are no real incentives for the railroads to change.


Is this a form of rentier capitalism a la Marx? The owners only have incentive to extract what they can out of the existing infrastructure, not to invent or upgrade anything.

Regulations are good but maybe that's a limited strategy. Maybe the ownership needs tax incentives & investments that would encourage better usage. Grant money for better tech (like high speed rail, sensor upgrades).

Response to flashman13 (Original post)

flashman13

(2,378 posts)
34. Dynamic braking has been used since the coming of the diesel electric locomotives.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 10:26 PM
Feb 2023

And like everything else, dynamic braking has evolved and gotten better (You should see those resistor grids burn when one of them shorts out). But in an emergency, dynamic brakes are only going to have the most marginal effect on 120 cars of U.S. grain hurtling down the tracks at 60 MPH. Even with the best brakes in the world that train will take 1-1/2 to 2 miles to stop. Any improvement is good, but the problem is far too large for chipping around the edges with a few technical innovations to make any meaningful difference.

Emergency braking is the last defense against disaster. The key is not in applying the brakes, but in minimizing the number of emergencies.

Hiawatha Pete

(2,082 posts)
36. "dynamic braking has evolved and gotten better"
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 10:41 PM
Feb 2023

Thank you for proving my point wrt to 'antiquated' systems.

Hybrid and electric cars have only just caught up, yet it's trains that are 'antiquated'.

Quite the accomplishment considering that rail has to compete with a highway system that gets billions in funding poured into it.

That doesn't mean that there wasn't an eff-up from one of the stakeholders (the railcar companies, NS, 3rd party contractors) or that rail companies aren't screwing their employees.

Maybe if gov'ts start treating rail as the essential service it is we can have even better freight service with even fewer derailments, as well as high speed rail in N America.

It will be interesting to see what the NTSB determines is the remedy going forward.

Puppyjive

(985 posts)
43. This is how they work
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 02:35 AM
Feb 2023

Dynamic breaks work somewhat like your car works when you shift down. When I'm driving down the mountain from a day of skiing, rather than spin out by applying my breaks on an icy road, I shift down. Keeps the car in better control. Dynamic breaking is very similar. You use the reverse power of the locomotives to slow your train down. Here's the problem. The trains are much longer now due to precision railroading. You can only get so much breaking power from dynamics and they are limited. Air breaks are better at slowing your train, but you can also use up all your air and then you're in trouble. I would say this system is old. I hostled locomotives for many years. I believe there are better systems out there.

Hiawatha Pete

(2,082 posts)
58. AC Locomotives like the AC4400 which use inverter control have better dynamic braking range
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 10:40 AM
Feb 2023

than older locos that relied on things like field excitation for controlling dynamic brake effort - to further what you've just said.

Also, Electro-Pneumatic brakes, as you are likely aware, are still air-applied. They just use an electrical signal instead of an air reduction in a brake line to apply the brakes -eliminating the propagation delays inherent in a straight-air system

Being air applied, EP brakes still rely on a source of air from the locomotives. The reason air is still used (even for EP brakes) is that no more powerful braking method has been invented yet.

Hydraulic is not 'fail safe" enough in that if you lose brake fluid, you lose brakes. With an air system your supply of braking medium (the air) is unlimited.

Liberal In Texas

(16,259 posts)
37. That was very interesting.
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 11:28 PM
Feb 2023

And a good example of why unchecked capitalism doesn't work. These potentially dangerous systems need to have strict regulation with watchdog agencies with the power to enforce the regs. Exactly the thing that repbs hate.

There are tons of companies that use the rail system to transport their products around the country. Realistic taxation of these companies to pay for this cheap transportation must happen.

JudyM

(29,785 posts)
66. Your second point is what I was thinking, as well as raising their shipping rate, as well.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 02:52 PM
Feb 2023

Corporate profits were made by the rail companies and those who ship through them, so their bearing the upgrade cost seems fairer than turning solely to federal income tax dollars.

MichMan

(17,121 posts)
69. Rail tax of $100,000 per mile traveled would be a start
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 08:39 PM
Feb 2023

Every 10 miles would be $1 million. That should be able to cover the costs

flying_wahini

(8,274 posts)
41. Think of all the jobs a federally owned rail system outlet provide. Not to mention
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 12:12 AM
Feb 2023

The change to travel by rail.

Mr. Evil

(3,457 posts)
45. This won't help much in the derailment dept. but,
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 03:12 AM
Feb 2023

I've actually come up with a new type of crossing guard/warning system that would replace the antiquated two oscillating red lights and bell that no one can hear anymore. Also a way to warn people crossing tracks where there is no guard or lights. Since I don't know how to code and being poor, it's nearly impossible to build a small, working prototype. But, I truly believe it would greatly reduce accidents at all railroad crossings (which can also cause derailments).

sprinkleeninow

(22,334 posts)
46. Lil ole me thoroughly enjoyed the conversation on this thread.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 04:26 AM
Feb 2023
Very enlightening. I did comprehend
a goodly amount of the tech talk!

Much appreciated!

czarjak

(13,632 posts)
47. As Bill-O liked to say...
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 04:56 AM
Feb 2023

"Capitalism is about winners and losers"
Winners picking the losers is only good for the winners.

liberal N proud

(61,194 posts)
48. Pigs won't ride on trains anymore
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 07:30 AM
Feb 2023

Neither will cows.

Once trains transported live and processed beef and pork. But no longer.

When I was a kid, a train derailed in my small town, literally in our back yard. It had both livestock and what they called hanging meat.

 

oldsoftie

(13,538 posts)
51. Electrification of our railways would take 100 yrs to accomplish
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 09:29 AM
Feb 2023

and would be terribly unreliable.
Sorry, but a big "NO" from me on that one. Now a hybrid system, sure, I'm all in.

Delphinus

(12,517 posts)
53. So grateful
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 09:39 AM
Feb 2023

that you wrote - it was clear and understandable. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Dustlawyer

(10,539 posts)
55. Tort reform also contributes to the RR cutting corners.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 09:51 AM
Feb 2023

If you could get hit with a huge verdict you might decide to be safer. When damage recoveries are capped the industry can just factor into their business model without fear.

twodogsbarking

(18,713 posts)
57. With a better rail system we could reduce oil dependency.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 10:35 AM
Feb 2023

One reason we don't have a better rail system.

LiberalFighter

(53,544 posts)
61. Saw this earlier on FB.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 01:20 PM
Feb 2023

It would seem that ownership of the tracks should be either federal or state or both. And the railroads should be paying for the use of the tracks. Along the line that happens in Europe.

The only exception would be wherever the Railroad companies maintain their trains.

Grins

(9,443 posts)
65. "...big profits from their obsolete systems" Yes.
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 01:57 PM
Feb 2023

It is Capitalism, mixed with short-term greed, that brought grief to those in East Palestine, OH.

tornado34jh

(1,527 posts)
68. I think there is a big difference in how we deal with railroads compared to other countries
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 04:50 PM
Feb 2023

When I was in the UK, we took a train from London to Edinburgh. Of course, it was delayed not due to the track or snow, but a window. However, in Europe, trains are really more or less the default way to go and they go really fast. Sure, people still use the roads and all that, but really trains are sort of the way to go, particularly in mountainous countries like Switzerland and Austria. Some countries, especially France, UK, Spain, and Germany, put a lot of money into their trains, including safety. I used to go see my aunt in Philadelphia when I was in Virginia, and although it was better than driving, it wasn't really the fastest.

Now in regards to train safety. First, one thing that I think has to be understood is this: When you are dealing with dangerous chemicals, they put labels as to the hazard that it has (e.g. flammable, dangerous for environment and so on). I would think that safely is especially a top priority for stuff like that. The fact that regulations were removed was a recipe for disaster. That should be the last thing that should be removed. Usually there is a way to store them to prevent something like this. Also, the weather affects the tracks, so that is something that should have been known. Another thing, why do we put potentially hazardous trains near inhabited areas, or better yet, why do we build near train tracks with trains that have questionable safety standards?

Second, the US has never really developed their rail system very well, or at least very unevenly. Often freight trains share the same track as Amtrak, and with freight trains getting longer and longer, it takes a lot of time. Here in Lakeland there are trains that cross over downtown. If they break down, it is a huge mess because there is no alternative route to get around it. Some bus drivers have told me that they have waited up to 2 hours being stuck behind a train. Of course, part of the problem with the railroads is our own doing. People here love their cars, and they are not willing to give them up for trains. Hence, money that could be spent on that isn't done. As I said, much of Europe, Japan, and so forth put a bunch of money into that, and that includes safety systems.

Third, forget about just the rails, most of the infrastructure of the US in general needs major repairs (roads, many buildings, bridges, and so on), but again, what we could doing try to fix things and so forth, instead we are fighting over ridiculous things that really we shouldn't really be worrying about it. But again, it is about greed and money. Hate to say it, but we don't have the willpower to look for solutions. Instead, this derailment has become a political hot potato. While it is true that the Trump administration got rid of the regulations that could have improved safety and all that, this is not really a new issue. We have said this for years. The issues go back for much longer than when Obama was in office.

Finally, we keep falling into this trap again and again. It takes a disaster to do something when we could have prevented this in the first place. Why does it always have to be that something like this has to occur before we do something? Look, I am not saying it is unique to the United States. But again, a lot of it is due to the fact that we don't have enough people who do the training and learn the trade to do something like this. It is further complicated by the fact that there is no real incentive to bring people in to teach them this. How many teens/young adults go to the different trade schools in addition to college to learn how to do stuff like this? Eventually, there won't be enough trained people to fix this sort of stuff. But again, it is all about money and the like.

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