Would it be possible for us to just decide that each individual's belief about the existence or

[Atticus]

nonexistence of a God or Supreme Being or Spirit---or whatever---be entirely that person's concern and NO ONE would ever try to impose the lifestyle required by their belief on anyone else?

Or, would that be me imposing my belief in TOLERANCE on the intolerant?

[Marthe48]

1. I live by example

I hope that me living my committments will enhance positive vibes.

[Girard442]

2. Wouldn't work in a world where there are desires for massive edifices and private jets.

[jaxexpat]

20. Especially when those edifices and jets....

are "essential" to spreading the gospel.

[unweird]

3. The intolerance of the intolerant is intolerable by the tolerant

At least it should be. There is no room in the future for those who would deny others their own freedom to exist. They, the narrow minded bigots, must be educated and evolved for us all to move ahead.

[Happy Hoosier]

4. I hear this argument a lot...

That somehow not accepting intolerance (or more appropriately, demanding non-interference), I am somehow being intolerant. A guy I know told that his faith requires him to impose his religious standard on the country and that if I want to forbid that, I am preventing him from practicing his religion freely.

I reminded him quite simply that his right to practice his religion beliefs ends where mine begin. I'm an atheist. I don;t belive in a supernatural being of any kind, or in spirits, or souls. I think it's non-sense. I think those beliefs can be harmful (though they don't have to be), and yet, I don't want to prevent other people from believing whatever spoopy non-sense they believe. And insofar as they do not hurt or impose upon others, or engage in cuelty towards a religious end, I don;t care much what they do.

When they tell me that their religion infomrs their morality and what kinds of laws they want passed, I tell them that's where the line is. If a religious value has a genuine non-religious purpose, it can perhaps be justified in law. But if it's merely about some kind "moral ourage" I absolutely oppose that. It's not intolerance. I "tolerate" their right to be hateful, narrow-minded bigot who believe a magical being demands that they be a hateful, narrow-minded bigot. But IMO, their right to ACT on those beliefs ends at public square. If one's wacky religious beliefs means you can't do your job on a daily basis while interacting with the public, get another job. And ESPECIALLY, if you cannot execute your duties as a public servant because you believe your religion demands it, then you have no place in public service. It's that fucking simple. One's right to act on one's seriously held religious beliefs do not extend into refusing to do your job and still getting paid for it.

[Wounded Bear]

9. Without freedom from religion, there is no freedom of religion...nt

[mjvpi]

22. What a great founding principle for a country!😉

[Ferrets are Cool]

5. ...

Telling me that I am going to "burn in hell" is what christians live for. You would take that joy from them?

[cloudbase]

35. From Butch Hancock:

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in Hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on Earth and you should save it for someone you love."

[panader0]

65. LOL!

[duhneece]

80. Had to send that screenshot to my daughter in Lubbock nt

[Pobeka]

6. If I believe, and you don't, then subconsciously I will wonder if you are right.

And, given the requirement of my ego to be forever and ever, I CAN'T HAVE THAT.

So, therefore, I have to impose my belief system on you just so I can sleep at night.

Since you asked...

That shit doesn't stop until people understand how ego works, and ego CAN'T HAVE THAT.

It's a friggin long uphill battle.

I hear your frustration. It will ultimately take our species out of the running if not confronted.

[303squadron]

7. But that would mean

That those wishing to tell others how to live couldn't cherry pick from "religious documents."

But yes, it would be nice not to have the Belfast gates closed at sunset so that folks on the "wrong" side of the debate wouldn't have their knee caps drilled out by morning!!!!!!

[Sympthsical]

8. Not really how democracies work

One misunderstanding I see pretty much all the time is, "You can't impose your religion on me." And that is true to some extent. No one can make anyone believe in God, go to Church, tithe an organization, etc. Our constitution guards against it.

But people can and do impose their morality on one another, pretty much constantly, in the laws they vote for. Whether or not that morality is religiously derived is absolutely immaterial. Doesn't matter. Isn't taken into account.

Say there's a law up for a vote: "Don't throw paint at trees." I support it because I think throwing paint at trees is dumb and polluting. Another person supports it because the magic coloring book says God hates it when people throw paint at trees.

Our opinions and ability to support and pass that law - with punitive measures attached - is exactly the same. Our reasons do not matter. If we vote for the law, it's going to be the law. Even if my reasons are based on secular logic and theirs is based on what Coloring Book God wants - our reasons both count and our reasons are both valid.

We can't dictate what motivates people to pass shitty laws. We don't have a system to "make windows into men's souls," as Elizabeth I put it when trying to accommodate two different religious views.

Whether someone supports imposing their crappy morality because of their religion or supports imposing their crappy morality because their secular ideology is gallopingly stupid, it doesn't matter. It's something we do and something we will always do.

It's not going to change ever. Nor should it, really. In order to do that, we'd have to be a lot more authoritarian than we are.

[Roc2020]

15. Exactly

Even if people publicly or even privately to their families/friends claim tolerance or to each his own or it's your life...blah blah, once they get into that voting booth, they are going to vote their values. That's democracy. The alternative is dictatorship.

[Atticus]

37. Many of us believe that "morality" is a concept independent of religious faith. nt

[Sympthsical]

43. Which means nothing in a democracy

That and $2 gets half a Starbucks. Everyone gets a say no matter their reasons. Everyone gets the vote.

And a moral system independent of religion can be just as dumb. There aren't a lot of guard rails around that one.

I say that as someone who is utterly irreligious. Not even atheist. What's the, "I care so little, I don't even care enough to be an atheist?" I'm that one.

[Atticus]

55. Sounds like nihilism. Fine, if that works for you. I'll pass. nt

[Sympthsical]

60. That is not what that word means

Doesn't even work in a context.

[Atticus]

63. OK. Sure. nt

[Sympthsical]

66. Wikipedia keeps it simple

Nihilism; (from Latin nihil 'nothing') is a philosophy, or family of views within philosophy, that rejects generally accepted or fundamental aspects of human existence, such as objective truth, knowledge, morality, values, or meaning.

Not particularly caring about religion either way has nothing to do with that.

[Atticus]

67. I can Google, too. Curious that most of the explanations of "nihilism" mention a "rejection of

religion" yet your "simple definition" does not.

A "simple" definition of nihilism is "nothing---(SEE: your Latin root word)---matters" and that is what your post seemed to be advocating as a "philosophy".

Or, as stated in thecollector.com: "Conversationally we might talk about Nihilism as a gloomy, pessimistic school, whose leaders rejected the moralism of religion, instead believing in absolutely nothing and no-one."

[Sympthsical]

68. Nothing in my post suggested anything of the sort

Not assigning significance to religious belief does not mean "nothing matters" and I'm not sure how that was extracted from such a simple statement. Nor does not assigning significance to religious belief denote pessimism or gloom. I think I'm actually more optimistic than most people here.

And it's interesting you've averred these things given your previous statements. They're literally contradictory.

Kind of feels like a word, not well understood, was thrown out hoping it would stick and make a point.

To crib from Teddy Roosevelt, I think we have an attempted nailing of currant jelly on our hands.

[Atticus]

70. I believe I am far from alone when I say that the title of that response is at least

disingenuous and does not at all fit the plain meaning of your words.

We are apparently at loggerheads on this issue and further exchanges are unlikely to persuade either of us.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

73. That's not what atheist means, but you do you.

Atheist just means you have no belief in a god. If you don't believe in a god, then you are an atheist whether you want to be or not.

[Sympthsical]

74. Atheist is a whole vibe in this country

I'm just . . . not that.

There has to be a "There is no way I could possibly care less about the question" option.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

75. People misuse the term atheist to fit an agenda, but it's just about belief.

You can be an atheist and not care about the question. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[Sympthsical]

76. I admit, I'm probably using a personal categorization

I separate out atheism from irreligious in my head. Atheists tends to care very deeply about the issue. The irreligious give it very little thought. The expressions are vastly different.

So maybe two sects of atheism.

We should probably go to war over this at some point. Just for the irony. And then the costume contest.

[hunter]

77. I use the term "ethics," not "morality."

Religious types have turned "morality" into a vile cesspool of hypocrisy.

Picture if you will an "immoral woman..."

Now compare and contrast with an "unethical woman."

[Wounded Bear]

10. Without freedom from religion, there is no freedom of religion...nt

[Towlie]

11. Good idea! The U.S. Constitution should be amended to say the government can't establish a religion.

 
←

Oh, wait...

[SouthernDem4ever]

33. I heard the "Oh Wait" before I read below your title.

[Javaman]

12. I consider myself a first amendment atheist.

believe what you want, I really don't care, just don't bother me with it.

[Roc2020]

13. That's hard because some people

take their religious beliefs more serious than life itself. And when that clashes with the belief of the unbeliever, then we have what we essentially have in the world today, unbridgeable divide. And leaders/governments (Putin) use that to oppress.

[barbtries]

14. the latter.

gawd is the default. the bible told them so and it is a perfect document written by gawd.

i think about this all the time. i think the next time any person starts talking gawd with me I'll just pleasantly mention how i suppose they've never considered how disrespectful it is to assume that every person somehow deserves to know their beliefs - mine are different, and every bit as valid.

I remember one guy who I had shared my atheism with telling me he talks to gawd everyday. I wish I'd said, well have him give me a call then. Or have you recorded the responses?

i do have really good friends who "praise jeezus" all the time and we're close enough that i laugh at them or say who? or in some way assert my disagreement. there's no stopping them though and i love them, so. they love me too. most of these women have murdered children. I don't get it, but i suppose it's comparable to my own belief that Bekah and I will be together again. it's people i don't know pulling this shit that piss me off.

i watch a lot of true crime and religion comes up all the fucking time. all the time. "it's my faith that gets me through." Victims' lives are told and if they had a "happy" childhood it included regular church going. "Came from a good family."

How many politicians do you think who spout off about gawd and really believe what they're saying? I can think of 2: Jimmy Carter and Nancy Pelosi. I'm sure there are more, but I am also quite certain that it's just empty words for most of them that they decided or were advised that you must do this or the people won't trust you. When was the last time you heard of a politician declaring they were an atheist? I'm not sure I ever have, but I do know that many politicians don't believe in gawd. they just say they do.

[KPN]

16. Don't we already know the answer is: the latter.

[Cherokee100]

17. Agree

I agree 1000%. Please don't knock on my door, with a bible in your hand.

[Grins]

18. Mr. Jefferson - you're up!

"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

[Iggo]

19. Impossible.

For millions and millions of people, their belief includes the belief that they should at least bother and at most kill other people who don’t believe the same way they do.

I tolerate those motherfuckers all goddam day. Doesn’t make a difference.

[Sky Jewels]

50. Yep.

[The Magistrate]

21. Where The Problem Comes In, Sir

Is that some religious traditions do require universal obedience to their strictures. Their ground being that their rules are laid down by the very deity they worship, and that this deity will be so offended by violation of these rules that, once a certain but unknown threshold of offense to the deity has been given, the people in general will be punished. Believers and infidels, sinners and righteous alike, all will suffer for the sins which give such offense to the deity they worship. Prevention of offense to the deity is therefore a necessary defense of all, the question being not is someone free to be themselves or not, but rather is someone doing things that cause danger to all by offending their deity or not. Framed the latter way, the social policy necessary is self-evident: sin in its most outrageous forms, conceived to be either open disbelief in their deity, or sexual behavior proscribed by their deity, must be prevented at all costs. Their religious beliefs require this, they have no choice in the fullness of their faith but to force everyone to obey the rules they do.

[mjvpi]

27. Well said. A good argument for teaching civics and US history in public education.

Our country allows you to do your own thing with your family and your community, but adherents is voluntary and not subject to civil law.

I find Buckminster Fuller’s “Ever Rethinking the Lord’s Prayer” a good focal point for me to talk God with people.

[markodochartaigh]

38. I'm gay and I lived in Dallas on 9/11.

I remember Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell telling their tens of millions of followers that god had allowed the 9/11 attacks because of gays, feminists, and courts that went against god's will. They walked their comments back, but when someone has used their dog whistle the dogs of war are not easily called off. I had co-workers tell me that the attacks were more my fault than the terrorists' fault because god is all powerful and if he wasn't displeased he would have prevented the attacks.

[Hekate]

44. All too true, Sir

[Ford_Prefect]

23. I've had enough, absolutely enough of elitist evangelicals claiming that their version of faith

is actually Christian. I have had enough of "tolerance" for those who prefer a truncated edition of American, church, and world history. I lived through and in some cases participated in events and situations now considered by some to be too "woke" to discuss.

If you cannot deal with anything that makes you doubt your preferred version of the world then you have some growing up to do. I bear no responsibility at all to allow you the room to be wrong about this.

The world cannot tolerate false witness anymore. I have no reason to do it either. The situation with global warming/climate change/environmental disaster is NOW upon us. Wishful thinking and magical belief will NOT protect us from the changes we are already seeing.

If you have a personal faith which prevents you from dealing with that reality, among many others, you are a tangible threat to my existence. I live in an area where large scale forest fires are a seasonal reality. All the thoughts and prayers you may prefer do nothing whatever to stop them. If you cannot help put the fires out what good are you in that circumstance?

If you cannot deal with other genuine, real world situations and conditions why should I put my life at risk by tolerating your unwillingness to help resolve them?

[gordianot]

24. Listening to Fundamentalist Christians is an exercise in frustration.

This is what happens when you embrace ignorance of History for generations. Thankfully Fundamentalist and Republican family members know my bend towards reading and learning things, they actively avoid me.

[wryter2000]

31. How many of those people do you find here?

I haven't run into any.

[LakeArenal]

25. When people start actually following the tenets of "their" religion

I have no faith in their proclamations.

Here are a few:


Some of the main themes that Jesus taught, which Christians later embraced, include:
Love God.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Forgive others who have wronged you.
Love your enemies.
Ask God for forgiveness of your sins.
Jesus is the Messiah and was given the authority to forgive others.
Repentance of sins is essential.
More items...•Oct 13, 2017

[Sky Jewels]

49. "Love God"

The same god that drowned almost the entire population of the Earth because humans pissed him off? Seems like an abusive relationship to me.

[LakeArenal]

53. Same god who holds a 2000+ year old grudge

Against his own imperfect creation for eating a piece of fruit.

[Sky Jewels]

62. Ha ha

And he's omnipotent -- but punishes people for their actions.

[bluestarone]

26. My thoughts? This country has been fully able to deal with religion with very little problems. UNTIL

The word was released that TFG was the CHOSEN one. The religious right took ahold of this, and went FULL BALLISTIC! Not sure, BUT i really believe that was POOTY'S plan? The ONLY way our country can be defeated is turn it's people against each other. DIVIDE and CONQUER! I completely blame this on the RELIGIOUS right! No doubt in my mind! My family IS the religious right, and i CANNOT believe this would EVER happen. Totally unexplainable to me, UNLESS you see how they started to think. To this day they are full blown TRUMPY'S. I give up on them. Until we get this religious GENIE back in the bottle, nothing will change. Our country is more like the middle east, with the religion problems! I just gotta mention here, i watched the Left Behind movie long time ago, and what's happening today in our country is so close that movie it's CRAZY!! We're gonna need a lot of good people in our Government in 2024, or we're in for BIG trouble!

[3catwoman3]

28. When I was a kid, if someone was being nosy, we would chant, "MYOB" -

- “Mind Your Own Business.” Still good advice, 60+ years later.

Everybody needs to just butt out.

[HAB911]

29. at our peril

[Beastly Boy]

30. Hmm... chicken... egg...

If intolerance is a pushback on your tolerance, would you tolerate this pushback, or would you become intolerant to it?

[SheltieLover]

32. Works for me

[wryter2000]

34. One would hope we could do that here

I find DU is the opposite of the outside world in this regard. People of faith here are not particularly evangelical. However, there are some atheists (not all by any means) who cannot tolerate the fact that people might believe in a deity. I imagine this is because faux Christians in the outside world are behaving so abominably.

[sarisataka]

45. IME many calls for tolerance are really

'I want you to accept me as I am but F your opinion, I don't want to hear it.'

In any case I'm sure each party will see the other as being the less tolerant.

[wryter2000]

52. I'm perfectly happy for people to be atheists

I just object to references to Sky Fairies and the like. It's not an opinion. It's an insult. I happen to be an agnostic who is very active in a church I adore.

I put (not all by any means) in my post because I truly like to hear atheists say, "I don't care what you believe as long as you don't impose it on me." I've heard that many times here. I've also heard Sky Fairies here. That's what I object to.

[uponit7771]

57. YEP !!

[SledDriver]

36. The 11th Commandment

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

[LakeArenal]

58. It's already in the "book"

[Goddessartist]

39. I so wish it was that way.

The striking down of Roe was clearly a religiously driven act.

[Sky Jewels]

48. This.

Christians DO NOT keep their beliefs to themselves. They impose them on everybody in the country! I'm beyond sick of it!

[CaptainTruth]

40. I refuse to tolerate your tolerance.

It's intolerable.

[haele]

41. As an individual, yes

But try to get a group or community of people to agree to that, and there's always at least one person in the group of individual tolerance who will start seething with resentment that they cannot "share" their joyfully twisted personal beliefs and opinions with others who might not accept those beliefs and others. If that person is an introvert, they're typically silent about their resentment, impacting only those closest. But if s/he is an extrovert - the entire group will be affected.
Resentment leads to active othering -because the person who resents will never consider they are the source of the problem.
Othering leads to bigotry. Bigotry leads to unfair actions which end up in oppression.

It's human nature.

Haele

[hamsterjill]

42. I am a Christian by choice.

I’m fine with anyone disagreeing with my belief as long as they respect my right to have it. I have NO desire to force anyone to believe as I do.

Jimmy Carter is the best example of this that I can think of.

[Sky Jewels]

46. Tell that to the fucking Opus Dei Christian loons on the US Supreme Court

who made women into third-class citizens after men and fetuses because of their STUPID book of Bronze Age mythology.

[hunter]

47. I have zero tolerance for anti-intellectual religions and I make no apologies for it.

"Tolerance" itself is a stupid and generally useless word that should only be reserved for small, occasional annoyances.

If my neighbors are having a wedding party next door and it goes late into the night, I'm okay with that. Usually they are quiet. I'm tolerant.

If someone lights up a cigarette in my car or starts spewing racist garbage I'll pull to the side of the road and tell them to get the hell out. I'm not tolerant.

Too often tolerance is a concept pushed by people who are trying to crap on you.

No, fuck no, I do not respect your cruel and capricious god. Your gun fetishes are disgusting and you are a racist.

Etc.

[Sky Jewels]

51. ...

[wryter2000]

54. I think you've seen by now

Where the intolerance is on DU. As I said, it's the opposite of what you find in the world outside.

[Atticus]

56. It came as no surprise, but the OP did generate some thoughtful "tolerant" responses. nt

[wryter2000]

61. Well done.

[Atticus]

64. Thanks. nt

[MineralMan]

59. Why does the question need to be asked?

[Progressive dog]

69. From both observation and history

it has not happened yet.

[llmart]

71. So, how do DU'ers feel about missionaries?

I've always gotten the impression that it is part of their job to try to force their religious beliefs on others, but it's done under the guise of "helping" them, especially impoverished areas.

[Sky Jewels]

78. They suck.

They should STFU and stop trying to foist their stupid Bronze Age mythologies on people who have their own cultures and beliefs.

[NowISeetheLight]

72. Not Possible

Because the Christian Taliban isn’t about God, it’s about POWER. They want an Iran-like Christian theocracy, with everyone forced to live under their interpretation of the Bible. With themselves as ultimate arbiter and judge.

[NowsTheTime]

79. I agree with you, but it seems some people think they own morality.....

....and want to impose their version or interpretation on others.

I give that in many ways religion has been a beginning of guidance of right and wrong,
but I also think a modern society can decide right and wrong using common sense and decency...

When I look at the vastness of the cosmos, it simply is difficult for me to believe .......and I would prefer a world like Jon Lennon in "Imagine".

I believe in what I see in the world today, and my concern for peoples happiness today, children, grandchildren future lives should be what we focus on and act to improve.