Biden's approval of Willow just cost him my kid's vote

[RiverStone]

WTF!

I'll do all I can to fight the return of the orange fascist in 2024, yet Biden's cave to Big Oil is going to cost him many gen Z voters.

My kids are in their late twenties and fucking with the Arctic/Alaska in exchange to appease big oil is a line they will not cross for Biden. They would never vote republican, but share their parents environmental activism.

This decision is incredibly shortsighted and I'm beyond disappointed.

[Ferrets are Cool]

1. I can see it.

[Samrob]

165. My single issue for kids sake is GUNS. I hate this Willow decision but it won't keep me from

voting for Biden again.

[yardwork]

266. Read some facts on this issue.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217727792#post10

[Ferrets are Cool]

273. Then why the FUCK didn't the administration get ahead of this and TOUT all these points

instead of letting people read the headline that states PRESIDENT BIDEN APPROVES WILLOW.

I will restate it. WHAT THE FUCK???

[yardwork]

274. I don't know. Maybe they did but MSM ran with their own agenda?

[orthoclad]

2. The only way he'll win

the next election will be if we're threatened by a monster. Which is likely. Helluva world.

[TheRealNorth]

3. Cause the Republicans wouldn't, "Drill, baby drill?"

More short-sightedness like this, and we'll lose EVERYTHING. Truth of the matter is, of Russia, SA, and the UAE are allowed to dominate the oil markets, we (Democrats) will be at their mercy every election that they want to influence by cutting back production.

[orthoclad]

4. Like being at the mercy of a heroin dealer.

Instead of finding another dealer, let's kick the habit.

[emulatorloo]

35. Biden and Dem congress passed a lot of stuff aimed to get Americans off of fossil fuel

in the IRA.

[Celerity]

42. Al Gore warns it would be 'recklessly irresponsible' to allow Alaska oil drilling plan

The pollution produced would comfortably wipe out the emissions saved from all renewable energy projects on US public lands by 2030.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217722394

[RiverStone]

72. Yep agree! While I'm empathetic to the frustrations on single...

...issue voters.

I think this was not a sword worth falling on.

I'll vote for our Dem nominee in 2024 regardless, but I don't understand the calculus of this decision. I think this will cost him many votes, but worse, will cost our planet and future generations irreparable harm.

[Progressive dog]

65. Yes they did

[emulatorloo]

66. Press didn't really didn't talk about it at all, did they? Probably why most people don't know

it.

[Celerity]

108. and this (along with that massive drilling lease auction in the Gulf) undoes a massive chunk of that

Al Gore warns it would be 'recklessly irresponsible' to allow Alaska oil drilling plan

Ex-vice-president says new projects ‘are a recipe for climate chaos’ ahead of Biden administration’s decision on Willow development

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217722394

The pollution produced would comfortably wipe out the emissions saved from all renewable energy projects on US public lands by 2030.

and

the following dismayed many in my social set/age cohort, as climate change is a huge issue with us:

this (along with this new approval now) was probably the most disappointed I ever was with Biden (I think he has been superb on balance)

especially because the excuse they used for months to justify the lease auction was simply not true

Revealed: Biden administration was not legally bound to auction gulf drilling rights

Justice department admits a previous ruling did not force the detonation of what environmentalists call ‘huge carbon bomb’

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/13/revealed-biden-administration-was-not-legally-bound-to-auction-gulf-drilling-rights

The Biden administration admitted that a court decision did not compel it to lease vast tracts of the Gulf of Mexico for oil and gas drilling, shortly before claiming it was legally obliged to do so when announcing the sell-off, the Guardian can reveal. Last month, the US government held the largest-ever auction of oil and gas drilling leases in the Gulf of Mexico’s history, offering up more than 80m acres of the gulf’s seabed for fossil fuel extraction.

The enormous sale, which took place just four days after crucial UN climate talks in Scotland, represented a spectacular about-turn from Joe Biden’s previous promise to halt offshore drilling and was denounced by outraged environmental groups as a “huge carbon bomb”.

The president’s administration insisted it was obliged to hold the lease sale due to a court ruling in favour of a dozen states that sued to lift a blanket pause placed on new drilling permits by Biden. But a memo filed by the US Department of Justice before the lease sale acknowledges that this judgement does not force the government to auction off drilling rights to the gulf.

“While the order enjoins and restrains (the department of) interior from implementing the pause, it does not compel interior to take the actions specified by plaintiffs, let alone on the urgent timeline specified in plaintiffs’ contempt motion,” wrote government lawyers to the federal court in Louisiana in August.

snip

the actual memo

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/21152195/8-24-2021-biden-opposition-to-motion-to-show-cause-and-compel-compliance.pdf

[Progressive dog]

150. We have built an economy that requires

fossil fuels. We may not like it, but we are going to be using fossil fuels for a long time.

[Celerity]

166. yes, BUT the US has to start really weening themselves off them and transitioning

renewables and latest gen nuclear. It a HUGE deal for us younger folk who have to live with this shit long after people who are seniors now have passed on.

Biden breaking a major campaign promise (no new drilling allowed on federal lands, period), plus the going ahead (under false pretences, as they were NOT required to do so, Biden's own DoJ admitted that in court) with the largest lease auction ever in the Gulf of undoes (physically) a massive chunk of the good work done on climate change by the IRA and other things.

It's terrible for the planet and I really fear my age cohort's (18 to 34, I am 26yo) support (which was massive, in a poll a week or two ago, we were by far the highest group at 85% support for him being the nominee, which was a net 48 points higher than older Gen X and younger Boomers had) going lower with this bad reversal, plus (and this is not Biden's fault at all, but who knows what will happen) the SCOTUS likely blocking the student loan 10 to 20K usd student loan forgiveness.

[Progressive dog]

208. The US, under Biden, weaning itself off fossil fuels to the extent possible.

He is not going to cut off access to fossil energy without a real alternative and he shouldn't. Biden doesn't run the world, in fact he doesn't even run the USA.

[Celerity]

210. this sets us back a lot on global climate change, as did that biggest ever lease auction in the Gulf

both were bad decisions (plus that lease auction was falsely spun as being required by law, when it was not)

[Progressive dog]

213. Necessary decisions are not bad.

The price of gas is much more important to voters than drilling for oil. Biden is doing what he has to do. If he doesn't allow the drilling, the oil field will sit there as a winning campaign issue for his opponents.
The set back is pretty minor, the Willow field contains about 6 days oil supply for the world and oil is not the only fossil fuel.

[Celerity]

214. neither were necessary at all, that is simply a false frame nt

[Progressive dog]

218. There is nothing false about the relationship

of gas and oil prices to support for Biden. Biden can't do any good for anything, including climate change, if he is voted out of office.

[Celerity]

222. non sequitur

Following your logic and rationalising, Biden should just go full bore 'drill baby, drill' for max vote gathering.

That is a recipe to blow out a sizable chunk of our voters, not to mention it would be an extraordinary climate buster.

Also, the fact Biden RAN on a 'no new drilling in public lands' stance and WON helps put paid to your voter premisses.

You positings do not refute mine that the neither the huge (largest ever) Gulf lease auction or now this new Willow decision were both not 'necessary'. You are basing it off of a speculative a construct that not allowing them is a locked-in net vote loser.

I do not know your age, but people remotely near mine (I am 26, so say 40, 50 and under) have to live for many, many decades with the consequences of the now known (for a long time) to be ruinous decisions made by previous gens over the past 100 years or so (and still happening) when it comes to carbon pollution-driven climate change stemming directly from petrol production and use.

[Progressive dog]

225. No it is not a non sequitor

Biden made a mistake making a promise that he was not able to keep.
What exactly are the consequences that you expect to have to live with? You also get to live with all the infrastructure and wealth that your predecessors couldn't take with them.
I'm trying to understand how you believe it is logical to tear down the President who has done more against climate change than any predecessor.

[Celerity]

226. yes it is, as I explained

And I am NOT tearing down Biden, I am simply disagreeing with both the Gulf lease auction (especially as it was done under the what turned out to be self-admitted false premiss that they were required by law to have the auction (self-admitted to not be the case by by Biden's own DoJ in their court filings as I fully documented above) and now this Willow project decision. Disagreeing via logical argument is not tearing down, not even close.

I never once said I was not going to vote for ALL and ANY Democrats that I am able to, nor did I say others should fail to do so as well.

Once the primaries are over for any and all offices, I am a 'vote Blue no matter who' voter in terms of the winner of our primaries.

I always have been since I could first vote(and did vote) in 2014, a few weeks after I turned 18.

That said, I am not going to accept a construct where I cannot voice my opinion on policy decisions.

Dissent is a foundation of democracy.

[Progressive dog]

227. The OP was about not voting for Biden

You are defending that.

[Celerity]

228. I am NOT defending that short-sightedness at all. That is a patent lie and a smear.

Are you going to accuse Al Gore of the same thing?

Al Gore warns it would be 'recklessly irresponsible' to allow Alaska oil drilling plan

The pollution produced would comfortably wipe out the emissions saved from all renewable energy projects on US public lands by 2030.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217722394

I was responding as to how the Willow decision and the Gulf lease auction will undo the good climate change things that we have passed since Biden became POTUS, those good things were offered up by another poster and I simply responded as to how this decision helps to negate them.

[Progressive dog]

230. How soon we forget

This is how you replied to my post defending Biden.

and this (along with that massive drilling lease auction in the Gulf) undoes a massive chunk of that

Maybe you didn't mean what you said, but you sure never walked it back. Logically that is a defense of the OP.

[Celerity]

231. That statement is true, and has nothing to do not voting for Biden. Talk about conflation.

I never once said I will not vote for Biden or that anyone else should not vote for Biden.

I was not directly responding to the OP, I was responding to a separate claim (about the positive climate legislation we have passed that is now being undone by the Willow decision and the Gulf lease auction)

That had nothing to do with not voting for for Biden, it was simply offering up a valid criticism of the decision to open up both Willow and the Gulf for further drilling. I backed up all my claims as to that critique of mine with linked evidence.

Your claim that I advocated not voting for Biden is a flat out lie.

[Progressive dog]

232. You were tearing down Biden

implicitly calling him a liar.

[Celerity]

235. That is pure dross, you keep doubling down with false claims. My offering up logical & documented

disagreement with a policy decision(s) is NOT tearing down Biden.

The denial of our rights as citizens to disagree with policy decisions, to treat that disagreement as some sort of heinous attack, and then to falsely claim via conflation and revisionism that I am somehow directly engaged in advocacy for not voting for Biden simply due to my disagreement on policy (which is exactly what you are doing with your posturing and personal attacks) is beyond the pale.

You literally are trying to quash any sort of policy debate, supress any sort of policy dissent, and are using smear tactics to try and achieve that goal.

[DemocraticPatriot]

243. A bad decision for only 6 days worth of oil was not a 'necessary decision',

I would boldly assert--- especially a decision that discourages the young base voters...


Years ago, I recall arguing with my Republican best friend, that more drilling in the Alaskan 'ANWAR' (do i have that right?), which would only give us 6 months of additional oil was not worth it, and he actually agreed with me---

6 days or 6 months, is a small amount of oil in the grand scheme of things....


this was a huge mistake politically. It will not buy Joe any votes from the right-wingers who equate him with a communist anti-christ, and it damages his standing with the youthful base voters, who worry about a future that is many years beyond the lifetime of Joe or myself...

Of course I continue to stand with President Biden,
but this was very far from his best moment....

[Celerity]

255. Also, first oil will not come from Willow until 2029 at the earliest, so it will have zero effect on

gas prices during Biden's entire tenure as POTUS, even if/when he wins re-election.

That poster kept using the (to paraphrase) 'Willow will keep the gas price low so Biden wins' argument. It is utterly invalid.

https://static.conocophillips.com/files/resources/2021-market-update-06302021.pdf

page 25



Also, the regional protections aren’t set in stone yet either.

On Monday, Biden sent a memo to Interior Secretary Deb Haaland that withdraws some of the areas from potential leasing, but there will still be a public comment period for some of those protections, and they could be overturned.

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/biden-harris-administration-announces-sweeping-protections-16-million-acres-land-and

[634-5789]

265. Exactly what Biden said.

[TheRealNorth]

98. But that is not what you are advocating

You are advocating reducing oil supply (and thereby increasing prices), not reducing reliance on oil.

[RiverStone]

15. Young people are more driven by single issue

Cuz I'm almost in my 60s, I get the nuance of your point. .

The whether it's drilling in the arctic, reproductive freedom for women, transgender rights etc. Young people are more driven by single issues.

This is like telling them, we're going to cut off an arm, but you can still walk.

There is ZERO reason to cave in to Big Oil on this.

The damage to native cultures, and the environment will last forever.

[emulatorloo]

28. So she doesn't care about a woman's right to choose?

There are lots of reasons to keep democrats in office that directly effect women.

She’ll have lots of time to think about those things before Nov 2024.

[RiverStone]

40. Of course she does! Thankfully just as much as protecting our one planet

Though our response should not be to say "oh well, young people will eventually get it"

I'm afraid the lack of foresight as to the gravity of the impact this will create is not being realizwd

[emulatorloo]

44. "young people will eventually get it" is not any thing close to what I said.

[RiverStone]

76. Ooops, apoligies

Your right, you said "she has lots of time to think about it" before 2024.

I must have been thinking about somebody else's post. These down thread responses can get mixed up sometimes.

Even so, I'm hoping somehow Biden and company will also think about this before 2024, and mitigate this horrific decision.

[emulatorloo]

81. No worries!

[Autumn]

172. In a lot of places women no longer have the right to choose so that threat isn't going to work.

[emulatorloo]

269. I'm not "threatening" anybody.

Unrelated but I hope things are going well with your health, been thinking about you.

I’m doing much better, the autoimmune condition responding well to humira. 2 years ago I thought I would never walk again, but I am up now without even using a cane.

Best regards.

[Autumn]

270. I didn't say you were. I responded to what you said here,

emulatorloo (41,036 posts)

28. So she doesn't care about a woman's right to choose?

There are lots of reasons to keep democrats in office that directly effect women.

She’ll have lots of time to think about those things before Nov 2024.

In many places in this country a woman's right to choose is off the table.

[emulatorloo]

271. It was a question. I don't "threaten" anybody

I think we’re all aware at DU that it is going to be much worse for women if Trump/DeSantis take power.

As I said in my edit above, hope your doing well!

[Magoo48]

18. When we know someone is going to fuck things up, do we run out and fuck em' up first?

[Raine]

153. At least they say so upfront

instead of leading a person to think otherwise. Not that I would vote for any of them but I'm just saying that they don't make a secret of their plans.

[Mysterian]

5. Cool story!

Bro.

[Sky Jewels]

20. I believe this story because my kids are similar.

They're in their mid-20s and they do not like Biden at all because they view him as another of the old school centrist corporate-beholden Dems, in the style of the Clintons (let's just say they're not fans of Bill and Hillary at all). They love politicians like Bernie and AOC. Most of their friends are very progressive and feel similarly. This is the reality of a good portion of Gen Z, whether we like it or not. I think my kids will vote for whoever the Dem. nominee is in 2024. On the other hand, they might figure that, because they live in a very blue state, they can afford to cast a protest vote and write someone else in. (If we lived in a swing state I'd tell them they're getting disowned if they even think about a protest vote, ha ha.)

I will say, I completely understand Gen Z's absolute fury about the lack of action on climate change, both in the USA and worldwide. They are getting screwed over and they are all out of fucks to give. They are the ones who will have to live in the hellscape that is being created on this planet. They hear people scolding them to just go along with the status quo because the Republican alternative is worse, and that only makes them angrier.

[W_HAMILTON]

32. "I live in a blue state so I'll cast a meaningless protest vote."

That's how we got into this mess to begin with.

And I bet their """meaningless protest vote""" will come with a lot of chatter on social media and the like, shitting on Democrats and proudly boasting that they'll be voting for the Green Party or whatever they plan to waste their vote on, which means they will be impacting meaningful votes in other states whose winner is not a foregone conclusion.

Just when I was thinking that "the youth" learned their lesson after their disastrous decisions in 2016, if they pull this shit again, they are irredeemable. They will never see the """revolution""" that they think their pointless votes for a third party or a cartoon character or a celebrity will bring and it will only bring about more pain and suffering to those that can least afford any more of it.

[Sky Jewels]

54. For the very blue states or very red states, the protest votes don't change the outcomes

because we're stuck with using the moronic electoral college instead of the popular vote.

In 2016, for example, Oregon gave all its electoral votes to Hillary. How did a few thousand protest votes help get Trump elected? They didn't. If some people wrote in "Donald Duck" on their Idaho ballots in 2020, it wouldn't change the fact that all of Idaho's electoral votes would go to Trump.

Now, a protest vote in Wisconsin or Pennsylvania or Michigan in 2016 -- that was disastrous. But those weren't solidly blue states, and the voters should have known that.

Posting anti-Democratic Party stuff online, yes, I agree, that's very harmful.

But we'd all better stop trashing Gen Z and thank our lucky stars for "the youth" vote -- they SAVED our asses in the last THREE elections (along with Black women). If it weren't for Gen Z, we'd be deep into a second Trump term and Senate would be in Republican hands.

The problem is middle-aged and older white people -- which is my own demographic. (Obviously I'm not a Republican though.)

[emulatorloo]

61. Trump won in 2016 because 3 swing states went for Trump because of third party protest votes

Nobody is trashing gen Z.

[Arazi]

74. The OP states her kids live in deep blue states

So a protest vote like writing in Bernie Sanders doesn’t affect the electoral count. At all.

The climate voters hope the Dem party pays some attention to those numbers (cause they’re growing).

It’s a tool in the protest box… and one that we ignore at our peril

[emulatorloo]

80. 2016 sorta undermined the safe blue state concept for me I am afraid.

‘It’s a tool in the protest box… and one that we ignore at our peril.’

JMHO, but it is one of the poorest tools in the protest box. To me it is ineffective because news organizations etc never report or talk about protest votes. They are meaningless.

Demonstrations, email and letter writing campaigns et cetera are much more effective because people learn about them through the media.

But definitely have at it if you believe it is effective.

[Arazi]

87. How did protest votes in safe blue states undermine HRC's win?

And please note, I’m sure HRC won. I firmly believe the shenanigans in those swing states were manipulated.

But please tell me how protest votes in say California (she won that state by 30% as a reminder), hurt HRC?

[emulatorloo]

96. I perhaps mistakenly believed Wisconsin and Pennsylvania were pretty safe.

Were there any mainstream newspaper articles or news show about the protest votes in CA?

My guess is no, so they don’t seem to be an efficient way to protest. There are better more attention grabbing ways to protest than protest votes.

You think they are a great tool, I think they are ineffective because imho no one pays attention to protest votes like they do a big rally. Even boycott make the news.

It is just a difference of opinion on what is an effective tactic, I don’t think we need to have a fight about it.

Take care.

[Arazi]

118. Definitely not fighting

And I didn’t say it was a “great tool”.

I think some folks believe it is “a tool”.

You take care too

[emulatorloo]

119. ...

[Sky Jewels]

123. If you read my response, I specifically made a distinction between the deep blue/red and the swings.

[emulatorloo]

126. Thanks.

[Sky Jewels]

127. Sure!

[Rob H.]

221. It's surprising how many people don't seem to account for the Electoral College

I live in a very red state and I could've voted for a ham sandwich for president in 2016 and 2020 for all the good my vote did. Trump carried this state by double digits both times (16% in 2016 versus 20% in 2022).

[Sky Jewels]

223. Very true. And a lot of people misinterpret polling because they think in terms of popular vote.

I remember 2016 polls that had Hillary ahead nationally. But if you're getting a disproportionate number of those votes from states like California and New York, that doesn't help that much in terms of getting her elected.

[inthewind21]

275. It's

a failure of the American educational system to teach it's citizens civics 101. Then a failure on the citizens part for failing to ever attempt to learn it.

[allegorical oracle]

69. Not just kids. Am flashing back to my Bernie Bros friends who either sat out the election or voted

for Jill Stein. I know Hillary won the popular vote but for the "Bros," it was Bernie or nobody except someone who couldn't possibly win (even after they knew she sat in Russia with Putin and Michael Flynn). TV analysts are saying that Biden needs Independent voters and also must make a move to lower energy prices. If a Repug wins in 2024, that drilling definitely will occur, but it sure puts us lefties in a quandary.

[RiverStone]

33. Yep - my kids were also big Bernie fans

Thanks Sky

I was also a big Bernie fan, though I did vote for our Dem nominee.As I will in 2024 no matter who it is!

Though there are some single issues that... particularly for young people... where they are willing to lay it all on the line for, this is one of them.

[Sky Jewels]

39. Yes, they are tired of being told to hold their fire.

We are in an existential crisis -- a climate emergency. This is the biggest challenge the planet has faced since the asteroid hit and wiped out most of the dinosaurs. My kids doubt they will have kids because they don't think it's fair to bring babies into this inferno. I totally understand their anguish and unwillingness to compromise and moderate on this issue.

[emulatorloo]

58. We're also in an another existential crisis - A real threat of Fascism destroying our country.

I know exactly horrible the climate crisis is. It scares me, and I feel their anguish to. We have to fight to preserve our planet AND preserve our Democracy.

Democrats just got a huge environmental/climate package thru that was part of the IRA of 2022. I don’t think a lot of people are aware of that.

Fascist Republicans don’t care about the environment at all, and if they get in power again all protections and freedoms we have in the USA will be gone.

Big choices here. Yes it all sucks.

[Duppers]

187. Exactly!

My 36yo son also knows we are in "an existential crisis -- a climate emergency."

He will remain childless. It's sad but it's the right decision. Every person increases our collective carbon footprint, which if not curtailed, will end us all.

[inthewind21]

276. Well

in 2016 they "laid it all on the line" How'd that work out? They happy with that new Supreme Court and all those life time federal judges? Who, by the way, can strike down any and all measures to fight climate change. Psst, it was the courts that killed Bidens no drilling on federal land EO. It's out there, for the whole world to see. So the fact that he was able to negotiate SOMETHING was better than NOTHING. Imagine that, it was the courts! What's that saying about a forest and trees?

[Marcus IM]

30. Cool response!

Bro.

[BlackSkimmer]

57. You don't have to believe that people might be upset about this.

But that doesn't make it false.

[Fix The Stupid]

75. OP's been here since 2006...you've been here 10 minutes.

So, yeah...kind of a rude response.

[Raine]

155. Who cares whether you believe or not .... NO ONE!!! nt

[Celerity]

197. This type of response is uncalled for and not helpful IMHO. nt

[RobinA]

6. I Hope Kids

will soon figure out that you have to take the good with the bad when voting. If I held out for an anti-death penalty candidate... Well, I still wouldn't have voted and the first election I could vote in was 1976.

[Mariana]

12. Exactly. We really need their votes

to overcome the fact that the majority of people over 50 vote Republican.

[RiverStone]

16. No...not this BAD

This is just too much...

As I posted up thread, this is one of those single issues that many gen Z's will not cross a line for.

[PatSeg]

41. I think we all cross some line

when we vote for any candidate, because there is likely no one out there that a voter will agree with 100% of the time. A situation like this is why Democrats often lose elections. Disillusioned voters either sit an election out, vote in protest for a candidate who will never win, or maybe even vote for the opposition. Brings back memories of 2016.

Purists who are unyielding in their demands often end up shutting everything down and may even succeed in moving us backward.

[RiverStone]

63. I understand PatSeg, and I'm an older voter

I agree with you on not being purest, yet if you remember what it was like to be in your twenties, when the adrenaline and cortisol are flowing with a passion ...young people don't want a debate.

They simply see a monster at the gate, and will do all they can to defend it.

I think Roe is an equal example of a single issue vote, which most of us would not compromise on no matter what a candidates other positions are.

Where I'm in disagreement with people is that this decision IMO, has such far reaching ramifications that it rises to the level of overturning Roe in the harm that it could cause.

Regardless, thanks for being on the right side of good in this world

[PatSeg]

77. Yes, I remember being young and idealistic

I didn't have the experience or foresight to see the long term ramifications of any protest action. I was often outspoken, doggedly stubborn, and simplistically passionate about what was right. I suppose my understanding of nuance was still being developed.

[calguy]

7. President Joe is more concerned about making the right choices for the country

than he is about whether or not a particular decision might or might not cost him votes.

[RiverStone]

53. This is beyond country, it's pouring gas on our climate crisis fire

It's about the health of our (((entire planet))) for future generations including my kids in their twenties.

Like I've said up thread, I will vote for our Dem nominee no matter who it is in 2024! Though if my two kids and their friends are a sample, this could cost us a big chunk of young voters.

But I know when I was in my twenties, there were certain issues that drove my decision making, and being passionate about choice, climate change, gun control, etc.... Is what drives young people more than multiple issues and wheeling and dealing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

128. Sad to say, this sounds more like he made this choice to get a few centrist votes

knowing that most environmentally-aware people will have to stick with him for other reasons. The right choice for the country, and the planet, would be to stop new drilling, especially in ecologically fragile areas.

[calguy]

158. Your opinion, plain and simple.

[Ron Green]

267. Actually it's a fact.

Plain and simple.

[calguy]

281. Thank you for registering your opinion

[womanofthehills]

186. And Adam Schiff is against the Willow Project

To keep his California constituents happy and not big oil.

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[BannonsLiver]

8. Sounds like you've got a couple of myopic kids on your hands.

[RiverStone]

19. No, they are amazing activists and peaceful protesters!

Biden's decision is myopic!

There simply is no justification.

[Sky Jewels]

22. I agree, RiverStone. This decision sucks balls.

[womanofthehills]

185. Adam Schiff has come out against Willow Project

Good for him!!

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[BannonsLiver]

26. It is what it is.

But I’m not terribly impressed with people who are one issue voters. Usually they’re the dullest knives in the drawer.

[ripcord]

62. You mean like abortion?

[BannonsLiver]

201. Most people who are passionate about abortion also care about other issues.

Better luck next time with the whataboutism though. 🙄

[ProfessorGAC]

116. Same Here

People who can't see the full picture aren't going to impress me with (using your word) myopic activism.

[G_j]

124. and you think they care

if you are impressed?

[ProfessorGAC]

131. Unbrilliant

[G_j]

144. I'm serious

I’m 71. Am I off in thinking you too may be a boomer?

[NickB79]

130. The issue of climate change is literally the MOST important issue. Bar none

Because it decides if large parts of the planet will be inhabitable or not in 50-75 years, and if we're going to see the Cretaceous-level mass extinction event it will bring with it.

Someone who's a single issue voter, when that issue is whether or not hundreds of millions of humans die, hundreds of millions become climate refugees, and millions of species die out, is someone who has a laser-sharp focus on what the future holds for them and their children.

About as far away from the dullest knives in the drawer that you can get. That phrase would be better reserved for people who think we still have time left to fuck around with releasing more carbon for decades to come.

[Arazi]

137. +1 hundreds of millions (humans)

[Demsrule86]

38. No Do they think the GOP will do better? This was a compromise.

So your kids are wrong IMHO.

[PatSeg]

43. Yes, there are better ways to declare

one's protest, helping the opposition to win is not a good one. If a republican wins, the situation will end up much, much worse.

[Demsrule86]

209. Thanks Pat.

[PatSeg]

233. Good to see you back

I seem to recall you weren't here for awhile.

[Demsrule86]

247. I spent 46 days in the hospital, had a Atrial valve replacement. I am stable but still in AFIB.

I am getting cardiac shock on Thursday.

[PatSeg]

250. Whoa, 46 days!!!

I had no idea it was that long. What an ordeal that must have been. So glad you are home and I assume probably taking it easy. All these damn body parts keep breaking or wearing out. I feel like an old beater car being held together with Bondo and duct tape.

At least you don't have the stress of Trump in the White House and you can focus on getting well.

[progressoid]

91. A compromise? So what did we get in this compromise?

What concessions did Conoco Phillips make for their 600 million barrels of oil?

[Demsrule86]

111. They wanted more land for drilling

and didn’t get it. At this moment we are not off oil and gas. And Biden has made some good moves towards getting us there but we are not there yet.

[progressoid]

180. Brilliant.

So I'm going to start some forest fires and I want a million dollars. But if you give me a half million instead, I'll only start a few forest fires.

That seems like a good compromise.

[Demsrule86]

206. We can't run our countries on renewables yet and deals were made with Murkowski to get her

votes and the GOP would have used it against us. We have made progress...all or nothing gets you well nothing.

[NickB79]

132. We're at 500 ppm equivalent of CO2

The same level that gave us 75' higher seas and forests near the North Pole 2.5 million years ago.

The time for compromise when it comes to carbon emissions ended circa 1999. We're literally DECADES past compromise anymore when it comes to fighting climate change.

[Blues Heron]

168. how do you then conclude that the best thing is to sit out the election?

This story doesnt really add up

[progressoid]

179. +1

[progressoid]

92. +1

[Kaleva]

112. What are they doing to prepare to adapt to climate change.

"Amazing' doesn't tell us much.

[Silent3]

122. Whenever you fail to choose the lesser of two evils, you're being myopic

There is no world where refusing to vote, or casting a protest vote, ever does anything but assuage the ego of non-voter or protest voter.

There is no "them" out there in the world who will receive an effective signal from these acts, no one who will respond to this form of protest by providing the protester better choices in the next election.

In fact, if a Republican wins the next election, there might not be any real elections again for a long time.

Is Biden's choice a bad one? Yes. But two wrongs won't make a right either.

[Happy Hoosier]

173. And they're making a shitty decision.

Frankly, their decision is like the GQP sending the country into default to get their way.

Yes, I disagree with Biden's decision. I'll STILL take Biden's environmental poilicies over a GQP President ANY day, and anybody who doesn't actively oppose the GQP is complicit. I don;t give a shit how "amazing" they are as actvists, or great they are are at peacefully protesting. If they enable a GQP President, they are HARMING the planet, not helping it. It's that simple.

[hippywife]

93. That's really insulting.

They're young without all the experience we all have with this process. This is their future, not ours.

For years now, I've considered it our fault if they don't see what's at stake. For most all of their lives, until the former Oaf of Office, things have been relatively "normal". Many of them aren't as aware what previous battles have been fought over all the issues we're having to battle over yet again, so they're less inclined to believe the bad things on the horizon can't happen here. So many think things are just they way they've always been and will continue to be so.

Why? Because many everyday people who fought those battles initially pretty much dropped the ball after a win and didn't reinforce/fill out the details of the inadequate history they learn in school.

[BannonsLiver]

200. I couldn't care less if you think it's insulting.

🤷?♂️

[Ferrets are Cool]

177. That is over the line. You don't know their kids.

[BannonsLiver]

199. Mind your business.

[Ferrets are Cool]

205. You mean like you are?

[markie]

9. understood, although...

"This decision is incredibly shortsighted" could say that about both sides (Administration and kid) there is some I don't like about Democrat's actions, however, to not vote Democratic is playing with a much bigger fire

we are in trouble if we can't look at the big picture

[Scrivener7]

10. Who's he going to vote for instead?

[Raine]

156. Possibly no one, he may sit it out

Biden should remember that. That's how Trump got in and Hillary didn't, people sat it out.

[Happy Hoosier]

171. That's just stupid.

You know it and they should too.

Jeez, that'll really show us when Trump 2.0 completes his desctruction of the Republic.

Fuck me this kind of shit pisses me off.

[betsuni]

175. +1

[Scrivener7]

198. So he prefers to give Trump a boost. That's very sad.

Voters should remember that they will NEVER have a perfect candidate, one who never disappoints them, who gives them everything they want.

NEVER.

Expecting that is infantile.

And, especially in this day and age, they should at least understand that the better choice is infinitely better than the alternative.

[womanofthehills]

189. We don't even know Biden will run for sure

Look what just happened to Mitch. The older you are, the more vulnerable. He might be voting for Marianne or RKJ. 🙃🙃

[snowybirdie]

11. Perhaps you should

remind them about the cancellation of Roe and all the other monstrous bills the Rs want to pass? Also tell them the tale of the Great Donnie's first term. Politics and politicians can't give everyone exactly what they want, can they?

[RiverStone]

24. If any Dem voted the way of the SCOTUS on Roe

I'm sure for a lot of us that would be the one reason we would never vote for them.

Rather than trying to convince my children that it makes sense to trade with the devil, I'd love to see an outcry which could change the course of this horrific decision.

[H2O Man]

37. All of my children

knew by the age offive or six that if I was talking to them about their behavior, not to say, "Oh yeah? But what about _____?" Doing so only led to further consequences.

[yardwork]

252. Amen, brother.

[inthewind21]

121. Well

Not voting 3rd party in 2016 was the perfect opportunity for that. How'd those protest votes work out?

[yardwork]

251. And I'd love to see a lot of things that are unlikely to happen.

So I play the hand I'm dealt.

[W_HAMILTON]

34. And point out that their similarly short-sighted actions in 2016...

...directly led to all of that.

And it will have a lasting effect, because -- as we have already seen -- the conservative-hijacked Supreme Court is more than willing to shoot down any progressive legislation or policies that it can.

[snowybirdie]

13. Perhaps you should

remind them about the cancellation of Roe and all the other monstrous bills the Rs want to pass? Also tell them the tale of the Great Donnie's first term. Politics and politicians can't give everyone exactly what they want, can they?

[CrispyQ]

51. And don't forget the national parks & how repubs attack and/or ignore them depending on the issue.

So much at stake for this generation to sit out cuz the candidates aren't exactly what they want.

Although, when I was young, a lot of my friends & peers didn't vote, either. I was even teased once, for making sure I voted before meeting friends for lunch. I got the political bug when I was a senior in high school after a class trip to DC, & being on debate team.

[Autumn]

176. Perhaps they should remind the Dems about the cancellation of Roe

and all the other monstrous bills the Rs want to pass and will do so should the Dems not work on getting the votes of these young people and keeping them in the fold. It's not a matter of giving everyone exactly what they want, it's a matter of their future on the only planet they have. Musk and Bozos aren't taking them to Mars. Most of us will be gone, along with the politicians making this choice so it won't matter to us. To them it matters.

[inthewind21]

277. Why

Are they unaware that all those protest votes in 2016 gave us Trump and handed the republicans the Federal courts AND the Supreme Court? You do remember that right?

[Autumn]

280. Hillary fucking got more votes than Trump did. Those protest votes didn't mean

a fucking thing. More Americans voted for Hillary Clinton than any other losing presidential candidate in US history. Every citizen has the right to vote for whomever they want or vote against whom they don't want. You do remember how that works right?

[H2O Man]

14. Recommended.

[KPN]

17. I was going to say let the fun begin ... but too late!

I hear you RiverStone.

Discouraging the way it plays. Like: If you can't join 'em, beat 'em!

[W_HAMILTON]

21. Then I hope your kid doesn't consider her/himself a progressive.

Progressive means making progress.

And Biden has made progress for the better in terms of combatting climate change, period.

It's called progress -- not perfection.

Let your kid know that as long as s/he is enabling Republicans to win elections by not supporting the only opponent that has a realistic shot at beating them -- the Democrat -- s/he is only making is more likely that these sorts of decisions will be made in the future as politics are a spectrum and as long as the extremist Republicans are a significant force in this country, there will inevitably be some decisions like these made that lean more to the conservative side at times.

If you want fewer of these sorts of decisions to be made, you do what you can to eradicate the Republican Party as it currently stands, not enable them yet again as people with your kid's attitude did in 1980, 2000, 2016, etc. What's that saying? If you don't learn from history, you'll be doomed to repeat it, is that it? I guess we all have another terrible era of Republican governance to look forward to thanks to short-sighted people like this...

[awesomerwb1]

82. Unfortunately a lot of progressives

believe in "burning it all down" if they don't get their way on everything.

I see a lot of progressives attacking Biden more than they attack the Qpublicans which is incredibly short sighted and sad as well.

[emulatorloo]

23. Does she know about all the green and environmental parts in the IRA of 2022?

A lot of money in that law for the environment.

Trust me, I get why they are upset.

And obviously do what you gotta do.

Just remember, a third party vote could very help Trump or DeSantis win. They aren’t environmental champions like Biden and the Democrats are.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

25. So Gen Z wants to help elect a Repug president in 2024?

I'm pissed and upset about this decision too. As I learned with every Democratic president I ever voted for, that's going to happen. But it's going to happen a whoooooooooooole lot less than it would with a Republican president...

[Takket]

27. He hasn't lost my vote but I can't blame anyone for being angry about this appalling move

[LeftinOH]

29. Not voting for the Dem candidate voting Republican. n/t

[JohnSJ]

31. It was that type of idiocy that elected trump instead of understanding the big picture

Last edited Mon Mar 13, 2023, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Anyone who thinks we cannot completely cut out oil overnight does not understand the implications

From transportation, industry and heating

[TheRealNorth]

99. +1000

[JustAnotherGen]

248. Agree

[CrispyQ]

36. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

It took me longer than it should have to really learn the meaning & impact of that message.

Bernie Sanders was right back in 2015 when he said that there are only two ways to the White House and one is through the Democratic Party and the other is through the Republican Party. That's true of most congressional and state seats as well. No other parties have the infrastructure these two have.

Remind your kids we currently have a two-party system, & if they don't vote, it's as good as voting repub. Here's another way to look at it.

[SheltieLover]

47. This!👆

[MANative]

70. Precisely N/T

[Prairie_Seagull]

114. No doubt!

This and what it implies, is progressive.

[electric_blue68]

142. One of the best analogies.

[LexVegas]

45. One issue voters are incredibly shortsighted. nt

[TheRealNorth]

102. Especially when you have literal Fascists on the other side....

Waiting to take power.

[SheltieLover]

46. Tell your kid voting is not a destination or a marriage, it's the best choice at the time.

The younger generation doesn't understand that progress is VERY slow in a system set up to not allow for change.

Joe might have had to swap this deal for votes on voting rights or something.

[Paladin]

48. I've voted for many Democratic presidential candidates during my long life.

I cannot recall a single one of them not making a few decisions that I thought were wrong, decisions that pissed me off.

And they got my vote, anyway. It's called being a grownup.

[bluestarone]

49. Look, i hate this as much as anybody here. BUT

There is still a hell of a lot MORE reasons to stick with Joe. I believe this is just a matter of, the right decision for the time at hand. This country needs some mending NOW. These other battles will come back another time, i feel. Im sticking with JOE!!! I believe if he had any other choice, he would use it!

[LakeArenal]

50. Nobody likes everything a President does.

Being a one issue voter neglects all the good thing a president might have done or will do.

[Peregrine Took]

52. That makes 3 of us. n/t

[treestar]

55. No, they are short sighted

Enough of this. How does it help? One issue wonders who screw themselves on the very issue because the Republicans are going to do better.

[keithbvadu2]

56. Ideological purity lets the other guy win The protest voters lose on many more issues.

Ideological purity lets the other guy win

The protest voters lose on many more issues.

[Buckeyeblue]

59. Then they'll get to watch the next Republican president really fuck up the environment

Among other things. In our current world higher fuel prices hurt poor people all around, higher gas for their cars, higher cost food, higher cost of building supplies.

I don't think he had a choice. It sucks. But with inflation and the Ukraine war, he really had to move forward.

[TheRealNorth]

107. I agree 100%

[Hugh_Lebowski]

143. Well said, and not just that, if you heard the past couple weeks, the fracked wells are depleting

Just as the Peak Oil crowd said they would back in the late 2000's.

We are locked in a death spiral with 8B humans on this planet, and an economy 100% dependent on endless growth.

I think Biden gets this, and as much as I hate (and I DO HATE IT) the environmental destruction, undermining 10's of millions of years of evolution ... there's no way 'out of it' anymore.

People think we can wind farm and solar panel our way to replacing the energy equivalent of 85,000,000 BARRELS of Oil a day and keep living with even a fraction of our current population and standard of living ... but guess what? We can't, and we won't.

I hate what fossil fuels are doing, I hate destroying the animal life on this planet, the extinctions we're causing with our profligacy, please don't get me wrong, it pains my soul deeply

But we're fucked no matter what we do. The time to act was the 60's and 70's. We're WAAAAY the fuck past any solution that doesn't involve roughly 1/2 of the worlds population dying, probably in the next 20-30 years.

We are (or are soon to be) experiencing classic ecological overshoot.

There's not a 'way out'. Sorry, folks.

Won't stop me from voting Biden 2024. He's making the tough decisions that I may not 'like', but are 'necessary'.

[Buckeyeblue]

190. You nailed it...Getting off oil is a long, difficult process

And one we need to start in ernest, both for the climate implications and the fact that it's not going to be around forever. But we just can't draw a line in the sand and say it starts now.

From a national security perspective it's important that we don't become completely dependent on importing oil. China is starting to become more involved in middle east activities, not because they love the middle east but because they need its oil. And now they are wanting to get involved in the Ukraine war. Who knows what the net results will be.

[FrankBooth]

60. Jill Stein approves of their decision

I'm sure that if a GOPer wins the next election because of purist decisions like this, they'll do a much better job on environmental issues.

[liberal_mama]

64. Some of the most liberal people I've know for years are saying the same thing

They aren't planning on voting for a republican, but are thinking of voting 3rd party or just writing in someone.

On social media, angry democrats are getting very loud about their disapproval.

[awesomerwb1]

89. And then when the Dems lose and it all goes to hell then what?

Don't approve of this move but give me a break. Voting for anyone but a Dem in this day and age is incredibly dangerous.

All the "third options" are nothing but spoilers after $$$$.

I'm more disappointed about "liberals" and "progressives" voting third party or (lol) writing someone in than by Biden's move.

[liberal_mama]

95. I think a lot of people have lost their hope and think that things will be bad no matter what

happens in the elections. Morale is down for a lot of Americans. They are disappointed and struggling. That's what I've seen on social media lately.

[Lancero]

97. Gen Z is damned to suffer and die because of climate change, and they know it.

Kind of hard to care about anything else.

[liberal_mama]

104. My younger son is obsessed with the climate change issue

He was born in 1993 so I guess he's a Millennial. He doesn't think there will be much of a future for the younger generations. He also told me that he worries it might be too late to fix the situation unless big action is taken immediately.

[NickB79]

146. Same with mine, only she was born in 2010

She'll see so much horrific shit in her lifetime, it boggles my mind. If she lives as long as her grandparents and great-grandparents, she might make it to see the end of this century.

I carry so much guilt knowing that. I couldn't bring myself to have another child after she was born, because it suddenly hit me what was coming for her generation.

[liberal_mama]

160. I know what you mean. I have 3 children (35, 32, and 29) and I feel guilt sometimes too

My younger son is always depressed and having an existential crisis due to his worries about the environment and climate change. My older son is upset about everything too. My middle child, my daughter, is a minimalist and is always ranting about fast fashion and the landfills being filled with cheap, poorly made clothes and plastic waste and the ocean creatures and birds being choked to death.

I love my children more than anything, but I kind of feel bad that I brought them into a world that causes them so much distress. None of my kids want kids of their own.

Mine are older than your daughter and I didn't realize how bad things would be.

I feel really bad for the younger ones like your daughter.

I see some young people that don't seem to care, but it's heartbreaking when the kids know what's coming and they are educated on the environment and the future climate disaster.

[Demsrule86]

207. I think we have made progress. And I disagree with those who don't care...how will they feel

when Trans folks are sent to concentration camps? Vote Democrat or literally die.

[TheRealNorth]

103. Yeah

And how much is it Conservative BS? You don't think they are using shit like Chat GPT to stir shit up? I bet this is just a t a preview of the shit we are going to see in the next 2 years.

[Tarzanrock]

67. When you are almost 30 years old you should be able to reason more rationally

Reminds me of those moronic misogynistic Bernie Bros who adamantly refused to support Hillary Clinton. You would think that by the time people matured to the point of reaching their "late twenties" that they would be able to reason more rationally about the bigger picture involved. The American economy runs on oil and it will for the foreseeable future likely for more than the next 30+ years. Those oil fields are going to get developed whether generation "Z" likes it or doesn't like it.

[mvd]

68. You have got to take the totality of things

I don’t agree with the decision. But President Biden has done such a good job on a lot of things. Letting a Trump or DeSantis in over this decision would be beyond selfish.

[Progressive dog]

71. Just imagine how many votes Biden will lose

if the price of gasoline goes way up again and Russia gets to sell more oil.

[RiverStone]

83. Future generations won't give a shit how much we paid for gas

...in 2024 if they are living on a doomed planet.

There might be already too much global warming to reverse it, but this decision will speed things up.

As I've said, I'm voting for our Dem nominee in 2024 no matter what!

I just think there's a lot more at stake in Biden's decision that has been factored in.
Whatever the appeasement of big oil might be saving, the price the planet will pay long after all of us on this thread are dead is something people simply can't wrap their head around. Ironically, young people seem to get this very well!

I'm off to go to the gym, this thread has been quite the work out already thanks for voting for the good guys even if we disagree on this point!

[Progressive dog]

85. Future generations don't get to vote

They don't even need to eat or drive to work.

[TheRealNorth]

106. Well, they very might not get to vote if the Republicans win in 2024....

Or their vote won't mean shit because the Republicans will rig the system like orban did in Hungary and Putin did in Russia.

[Progressive dog]

147. That's is certainly a good reason (not)

to refuse to vote for Biden because of one action on fossil fuels. The republicans will win easily if democratic voters hold their votes hostage for every action Biden takes.

[hunter]

184. The U.S.A. was built on Big Oil, and our affluence depends on it.

The people with the smallest environmental footprints live modestly in cities with high population densities, eat mostly vegan diets, don't own cars, and are not wealthy or affluent.

If that doesn't describe you, then you are part of the problem. Your wealth and affluence comes from Big Oil and you are a hypocrite. I'm a hypocrite because I own a car. It seems you have to own a car where I live to be considered a functional adult. I do my best by not driving much.

The U.S.A. could probably quit fossil fuels in two decades or less if we put the same effort into it as we did defeating the Nazis and Imperial Japan in World War II. We wouldn't even have to send any soldiers off to battle

But oh lord, the screams of the affluent and wealthy of all political persuasions would be deafening.

On the political right we have those who flatly deny climate change is a problem, on the political left we have those who think two ton electric automobiles and wind turbines will save the world. They won't. That's just a different flavor of climate change denial. Those fossil fueled hell holes of Germany, Denmark, and California are really good at this kind of denial...

I'm a radical environmentalist with quite a bit of formal training in the subject. I say things all the time here that piss people off. But my politics are entirely practical. There is no other way.

And above all, HUMAN RIGHTS are the only sound foundation for any good we do. Without those nothing we do has value.

My own kids can tell stories about their Mom and Dad on their Holy High Horses but they they know life is a messy business and don't vote for Republicans or spoilers, and they don't abstain. If you're not voting with any political strategy you can be sure the Republicans and their brain dead minions are.

[GGoss]

73. LOL !!! - Man... Young People Just Can't Win, Ya Know ???

First we bitch at 'em about not caring, being involved, registering to vote, or voting...

Them they do all that, and we hit them over the head with their votes.

Hey RiverStone...

Be proud you have kids that are aware and give a shit enough to be involved.

You've done a good job.

Remind them that their vote is, THEIR VOTE !

It is private, it cannot be bought and sold... it is their franchise and should be respected as such.

I'm old school, which says, "You want my vote, earn it !"

CITIZEN ... is supposed to be the height of being an American.

The politicians/office holders... work for us.

PS: Beware the wailings, and gnashings of teeth.

[progressoid]

86. +1

[RiverStone]

94. Thank GGross!

Gratitude for the kind words on my parenting ,(and their mom's).

My kids deeply care about social justice and environmental rights. My daughter has been arrested in said nonviolent protests.

They are willing to take action, not just complain about what's upsetting them.

Thanks again for your positivity recognizing this.

Be well

[GGoss]

105. Namaste

[W_HAMILTON]

129. Their vote is their vote, until...

...Republicans stop playing footsie with fascism and embrace it fully.

Then their vote will not be theirs.

And it will be too late.

But they were warned.

Time and time again.

[Ferrets are Cool]

178. Thank you for posting this.

[judesedit]

78. I hope they at least wait for Biden's reasoning. If rethugs get in

cause dems hold out, tell your son to forget his yummy life he's used to. Concern for the environment will be a thing of the past. And so will a lot of other things.

Please tell your son to pay very close attention to what the thugs are saying. They want control over everything. And it will be to the billionaire's and big corporation's benefit. Screw 99% of all Americans.

I pray gen-z comes to their senses

[In It to Win It]

79. Considering on the things on the climate change and envorinmental scale

You get two choices; Joe Biden or Desantis/Trump (whichever gets the nomination)

Which side is likely to let fossil fuels run wild? Which side would let more carbon be emitted into the atmosphere?

Is the emissions equivalent to 60 coal-fired power plants that Joe Biden is approving better than emissions equivalent to 200 coal-fired power plants or more that Trump or DeSantis would let happen?

Would you rather go 1 step backwards or 10 steps backwards? Because these are the only options.

[EndlessWire]

84. Biden will be criticized no matter what he does.

We want to be out from under the thumb of Middle Eastern oil. We need to have our own energy sources. So, there's that.

We care about the environment and the meaning of climate change, so we are attempting to make that change. The transition is long term and difficult, but necessary. This goes along with not needing to depend on ME or Russian oil.

No matter what Biden decided here, the main horror is that Trump might come back into power. Fighting off the fascists in our own government is the priority, IMO, and I believe that anyone who doesn't vote for the Democratic candidate enables the Repubs, and is thus the bigger disappointment with shortsighted actions.

I have to buy another car. I am going to buy a used one. I have discovered that I can't chance a hybrid, and can't afford an all electric vehicle. For a hybrid, the battery technology is too expensive to replace, should the need arise. I'd end up without a car, and back to square one. I'd get an electric, for sure, but I can't afford one. It is a bitter pill that I can't implement what I believe in, but I couldn't even buy a horse to solve the problem. I might be able to buy an electric go cart to get the mail, but it's just silly to consider any such long term solution. So, an older, gas car is the best I can do.

I believe that the government needs some kind of policy that helps our citizens toward the goal in terms of research and development. How the development of a pipeline fits in there, I don't know. We have started the migration to smarter energy, but we are a long way from the goal. Meanwhile, we have to balance the cost of gas versus the environment. So I have mixed feelings about the decision. The only thing I know is that we will be finished as a nation if Trump comes back, or any of the others. That is something Gen Z needs to consider very carefully before they put all their eggs in one basket.

[Bucky]

88. Well that sounds like a flaky reason to vote for Ron DeSantis

[brooklynite]

90. "No difference between the two parties" always achieves results

[Kaleva]

100. Do your kids buy products made in China?

China produces twice as much greenhouse gases as the US and that amount is increasing as China builds coal fired powered plants in an effort to battle shortages of electricity

"China permits two new coal power plants per week in 2022"

https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-permits-two-new-coal-power-plants-per-week-in-2022/#:~:text=level%20since%202015.-,The%20coal%20power%20capacity%20starting%20construction%20in%20China%20was%20six,than%2050%25%20increase%20from%202021.

"China, with more than 10,065 million tons of CO2 released.
United States, with 5,416 million tons of CO2
India, with 2,654 million tons of CO2
Russia, with 1,711 million tons of CO2
Japan, 1,162 million tons of CO2
Germany, 759 million tons of CO2
Iran, 720 million tons of CO2
South Korea, 659 million tons of CO2
Saudi Arabia, 621 million tons of CO2
Indonesia, 615 million tons of CO2"

https://climatetrade.com/which-countries-are-the-worlds-biggest-carbon-polluters/


"Coal
India Power Minister Says Country Will Add More Coal-Fired Plants"

https://www.powermag.com/india-power-minister-says-country-will-add-more-coal-fired-plants/


The answer your kids give will tell us all we need to know about how they really feel about the environment and climate change .

[betsuni]

134. No no no, Biden is personally responsible for all the bad climate things now.

He must be punished. Emotional threats not to vote, that he must "earn my vote," "vote my conscience," conspiracies about being a corporate shill in cahoots with Big Oil and Wall Street, status quo, late stage capitalism -- all the buzzwords that help Republicans win by discouraging voting for Democrats.

[hatrack]

145. You may want to take a look at the bigger picture . . .

IOW, who's the biggest historic contributor to CO2 emissions? It's us - followed by the EU, followed by China at about 1/2 of our historic output. (Note - this graphic includes the UK as part of the EU, as it was at that time).

Why does historic output matter? Because fossil carbon is going to be around for somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 years. That's how long it takes for marine and geologic processes to fully absorb every ton we emit. And on that time scale, it doesn't really matter whether a ton of atmospheric carbon was emitted in 1865 or in 1995. It's still going to be around for way longer than "civilization" has been around.

Forests and grasslands and wetlands and seagrass can and do capture CO2, but only as part of the preexisting biological carbon cycle. If they were capable of capturing any of the immense quantities we've emitted, we might see falling atmospheric CO2 totals. We're not.



Planting trees helps - in terms of shade, air and water quality, and some limited CO2 uptake. Are they going to "solve" the impacts of 1.5 trillion tons of CO2 we shot into the sky in less than 300 years? No, because it's the 150 or (maybe) 200-year lifespan of a tree versus a carbon cycle that's 100X longer and then some.

Neither will "carbon capture", which is a subsidy machine for fossil fuel companies to keep playing the same old game as before - it's tech greenwash, Xanax for those who are kinda sorta paying attention.

Neither will darkening the skies with sulfate aerosols to cut solar input. Even if it works - and that's a big if - it wouldn't do shit for Earth's oceans rapidly becoming more acidic, which they are.

Back in 1941, we had broken Japan's diplomatic code. Their dispatches noted to foreign missions that negotiations with the US had to conclude by November 29th; if no resolution was reached, "after that, things are automatically going to happen." That's where we are. Things are automatically going to happen, but without the option of recalling a fleet, or negotiating an agreement - or turning on a magic machine that pulls carbon out of the atmosphere, for that matter.

https://ourworldindata.org/contributed-most-global-co2

[Kaleva]

164. CO2 can stay in the atmosphere for 300 to a 1000 years

"Once it’s added to the atmosphere, it hangs around, for a long time: between 300 to 1,000 years. Thus, as humans change the atmosphere by emitting carbon dioxide, those changes will endure on the timescale of many human lives."
https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2915/the-atmosphere-getting-a-handle-on-carbon-dioxide/#:~:text=Once%20it%27s%20added%20to%20the,timescale%20of%20many%20human%20lives.

US output of greenhouse gases has declined.

"Since 1990, gross U.S. greenhouse gas emissions have decreased by 7%. "

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#:~:text=Emissions%20and%20Trends,-In%202020%2C%20direct&text=Total%20U.S.%20greenhouse%20gas%20emissions,and%20Sinks%3A%201990%E2%80%932020

Your point is valid though and it appears we both agree not enough can be done to avert catastrophic climate change..

[hunter]

101. Tell him he's a moron...

... and fuck Ralph Nader too.

[DashOneBravo]

109. Is this the same one?

“ White House denies reports Biden has decided to sign off on controversial Alaska oil project”



That was Saturday


https://democraticunderground.com/10143044852

[maxsolomon]

110. My niece who lives in SF voted against Pelosi.

It's easier to have binary principles when you're in a Blue State.

Joe is a Centrist. Obama was a Centrist. Clinton was a Centrist.

[JustAnotherGen]

113. My niece

And I spoke today about my god son's birthday -

She's more concerned about privacy and voting than this.

[ripcord]

115. Sometimes people expect campaign promises to be kept

Like when the President said he wouldn't approve of any new drilling on public lands

[MichMan]

117. Do they use any plastic products?

Those are all made from oil

[inthewind21]

125. Climate activists

Arranging rallies and discussing their anger with Joe Biden and their plans to vote green party on Twitter, with an I phone.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

120. Trump or DeSantis approve your kids' choice.

Every Dem who sits out is half a vote for Republicans.

I'm also not pleased with the Willow decision or with border policies. But the Democratic nominee gets my vote because, well, duh.

[NickB79]

133. It's amazing how so many here at DU have praised the activism of Greta Thunberg

But when the OP's child tries to follow her lead, the OP's child is roundly condemned in this thread for it as being myopic, ignorant, Gen Z, can't see the big picture, etc.

[FrankBooth]

135. After Ralph Nader and Jill Stein

It's amazing to me that people on a Democratic Party message board are talking about single-issue purity voting as anything that other than what it is--catastrophically stupid.

[betsuni]

138. +1

[NickB79]

141. The planet is literally on the cusp of a mass extinction event from burning hydrocarbons

If not already in one.

The stupid thing would be pretending like we have time left to keep doing what we're doing with regard to fossil fuels.

Apparently not wanting my daughter to inherit a hellscape of climate change is being too pure.....

[Hugh_Lebowski]

148. If it makes you feel any better, the hellscape is probably more likely to be the result of humanity

BEGINNING to run out of fossil fuels, which I believe will happen well before climate change becomes a large scale cause of human death.

Once the geologists tell us that this low cost (in terms of EROEI) source of energy to power our economies is permanently running out/in production decline?

The world will likely devolve into mass bloodshed and warring factions pretty damn quickly.

MHO

[NickB79]

152. We're at 500 ppm equivalent of CO2. Large scale climate change is already likely locked in

That's already enough to equal the Pliocene Warm Period, when seas were 75' higher, most of Greenland was ice-free, and forests grew in the high Arctic and along the Antarctic shores. The Amazon was a vast savanna, as it was too dry to support a rainforest.

Without some miraculous new energy and technology discoveries that allows us to sequester billions of tons of carbon per year, it will take Mother Nature several hundred thousand years to naturally sequester that excess carbon.

When the fossil fuels run dry and we devolve to mass bloodshed and wars (which I'm pretty sure is in the cards) and we lose the ability to manually sequester carbon on any scale as civilization collapses, the "lucky" survivors will then have to deal with catastrophic climate change after the wars have ended.

So yeah, it's likely my daughter gets to see the world tear itself apart in vast resource wars, and HER children get to see the planet burn.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

157. Okay ... we ... unfortunately agree ...

S'why I never had any kids.

Well, that, and also cause I'd be the idiot who failed to pay proper attention and they end up roasting in a car in the sun, or falling down a well or something like that.

I know my limitations

[Just A Box Of Rain]

212. Seems suspicious.

[iemanja]

181. How does voting Republican follow the lead of Greta Thunberg?

I can't wait to hear that explanation.

[betsuni]

191. +1

[betsuni]

188. Follow her lead? She urged all Americans to vote. Has she changed that opinion?

[betsuni]

193. DU is a forum for supporters of the Democratic Party.

Thunberg urged Americans to vote. Obviously she doesn't mean mean voting for Republicans. What is your point?

[friend of a friend]

136. They are better off voting for Biden,

but for young people, climate change is the most important thing. Biden has to let young people know exactly what he is doing to slow down climate change.

[inthewind21]

220. He's spoke

about it several times. Does Biden also need to send them all a save the date post card to remind them to PAY ATTENTION?

[emulatorloo]

272. He does need to get the message out about all the green/environmental stuff in the IRA of 2022.

There is so much money in that law to fight climate change.

But it is an uphill battle for him, as the press won’t report on it.

[uponit7771]

139. Single issue voters are so hard to please and just a couple of issues make them drop.

[Trenzalore]

140. Being young and idealistic was fun

You quickly learn the rich will always get their way.

You really have a choice of a theocracy or a conservative (in every other country in the world) government with personal freedoms.

It might move but that is the choice in the next election.

[elocs]

149. Just when the GOP is ready to pull itself apart, Democrats will find a way

to self-sabotage and help them out. American partisan politics is binary: the winner will be either the Democratic candidate or the Republican one. If you are on the Left and refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate, that only helps the Republican one.
As a moderate Democrat, for 50 years I have always voted for the Democratic candidate. Sometimes that person has been more Liberal than myself, sometimes less. But it's always been the Democrat. Smart people should do the same because any Democrat is better than any Republican. We don't each get to have our own personally perfect candidate so we need to get over ourselves and vote Blue every time.

[betsuni]

195. +1

[Hortensis]

151. Not voting Democratic IS effectively voting Republican.

Maybe you could help them understand the real world by

* testing the concept of "those who get the most votes rule" on their fingers (6 beats 4, etc)
* EITHER conservative Republicans OR liberal Democrats will get the electoral majorities. NO other possibility.

I often think that, with so many people so politically fucked up in so many ways and making horribly self destructive decisions, it's wonderful that we actually have a party committed to saving the environment to vote for, as well as a whole range of very decent liberal ideals. Imagine if it were otherwise!

We're so incredibly fortunate that MOST Americans share those ideals and vote for them. Because of them, I never think we deserve what those who don't bring on us.

[Xandric]

169. +1

We wouldn't have nation-destroying judges if it weren't for Cheeto.

[Happy Hoosier]

174. +1 NT

[Elessar Zappa]

159. I consider

anyone who doesn’t vote for Biden just as bad as a maga Republican.

[wishstar]

161. ABC News tonight said if he had denied it, court would have overturned to allow the drilling

Reportedly the approval of Willow was a compromise to limit drilling to just the one site since it will be such a major source of oil and many jobs provided to Alaskans.

[madville]

203. Compromised on 3 sites

5 sites was the original proposal, the compromise is for 3.

[betsuni]

162. Threatening not to vote for Democrats as punishment for some sin or other has to be

from thinking everyone's bought off and everything's about money (that cynical "status quo" thing), and the worst punishment is not getting elected because then an employee at Goldman Sachs or Big Oil can't donate thirty dollars to you.

Like Hillary Clinton. Yes, clearly Hillary spent her whole life fighting for the rights of women and children because all she thinks about is money. They sure showed her! She had to sell all her yachts and ten of her fifteen houses just to keep up her lavish imaginary neoliberal lifestyle.

Now Biden. Teach him a lesson!

How luxurious to be so unconcerned with society and only think about personal moral purity brand, your own feelings.

[LAS14]

163. Your kid cares more about an emotional hit than they do about the environment. nt

[Xandric]

167. I guess the student debt return is appealing to them

Right along with the opportunity for Trump to nominate even more judges if he wins in 2024.

[Celerity]

224. SCOTUS is likely going to slap that 10K to 20K in relief right back onto the balances of

millions.

Obviously that is NOT Biden's fault, but it certainly is something we need to message correctly on in order to direct the resultant anger in the right direction, ie., directly at those fucking RW POS Rethugs.

[Happy Hoosier]

170. So your kids are making a shitty decision...

Last edited Tue Mar 14, 2023, 09:40 AM - Edit history (1)

By not voting for Biden, they may as well vote for a Repuiblican. You are either fighting the bad guys or you are helping them, eithe passively or actively.

Focus on the war, not the battle.

[betsuni]

194. +1

[iemanja]

182. Be sure to tell them they are voting for big oil to operate unfettered

If they vote for anyone but a Democrat. That's a simple fact. They can be pissed off at Biden, but the alternative is the antipathies of what they want. As a responsible parent, be sure to tell them that.

[JI7]

183. This makes no sense

How about banning meat and not voting for anyone that opposes a ban on meat . Meat is a big contributor to climate change ?

Do they have any position on the demand side ? Real change will require change in lifestyle or new Technology .

Just saying you oppose drilling doesn't mean much if you don't look at changes in lifestyle .

When prices were high people complain about it but there wasn't much talk about using the opportunity to make changes to how we live .

[betsuni]

192. +1

[Thrill]

196. The type of shit that got us Trump instead of Hillary

Petty voters

[betsuni]

204. Yes. Hillary was the only presidential candidate to actively work with Flint, Michigan mayor

Karen Weaver to do something about the water crisis: "We need someone there fighting for the city of Flint, making sure we're getting what we need. Hillary has shown us that's the kind of person she is -- and what kind of president she'll be. She gets results."

But Hillary got paid for a speech and sent emails and someone kept yelling about Wall Street, so a progressive who actually gets things done was out of the question.

[EndlessWire]

211. She was the most qualified candidate.

She would have made a great President. Now we are possibly going to say that Joe is too old, or this, or that, when in reality he is nimbly showing us how a smart guy is juggling problem after problem. When the Repubs don't have anyone qualified in their clown car, and all they have are threatening, stupid candidates, this should be an easy choice.

I hope I live long enough to vote for Secretary Pete. I know that sooner or later we'll see something that we don't like, but no one is perfect, and credentials count. That guy is so frickin smart.

Character counts.

[betsuni]

239. I love Secretary Pete!

More and more. I don't even think about the Biden old/health thing because what's important is winning the next election and he'll do that. If he has a problem he'll step down and Harris will be president and Pete VP. A First and Second Gentleman!

Then everybody can blame them for everything and be happily mad at capitalism and Democrats until the next Republican president and the whole cycle begins again.

[Zorro]

216. Also got us Nixon instead of Humphrey

That was the start that led to our current state of affairs.

[madville]

202. Majority of US oil use is military and air travel

There’s no current way to make that renewable or electric so we still need to develop domestic oil resources mostly for some degree of independence and national security.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

217. And as a corollary point, if we don't have a measure of energy independence, we exacerbate the need

to increase military spending--as oil revenues that flow into the coffers of tyrants (including, but not limited to, Vladamir Putin) both fund wars of agression AND make the world more energy insecure, which creates risks in places like the Gulf, Venezuela, and much of the petroleum producing world.

Enriching dictatorships AND increasing the world's reliance on unstable autocracies has its own price. And it is a considerable price.

Just look how much Putin's war of aggression on Ukraine has undermined climate progress.

It is important to think globally and strategically as we deal with the transition to cleaner energy.

[Hekate]

215. Too bad we have no way to tell people born after Ralph Nader wrecked Al Gore how catastrophic...

…it is to withhold your vote for an excellent Dem because you are pissed off at one thing they did or did not do.

“Not a dime’s worth of difference” said Nader. “I’ll make a statement” said the disaffected.

Boy howdy.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

219. Some may be old enough to know what happened the next time that we heard there isn't a

"dime’s worth of difference."

Same old shit.

[ripcord]

229. Then politicians shouldn't break campaign promises

[Hekate]

234. So who did you vote for in 2000 and in 2016? Feel good about the results for the planet?

Feel good about the results for democracy? For women? For hungry American kids? Felt like you made a real statement and it was worth it?

[ripcord]

236. How do you trust someone who has lied to you about something important?

[Hekate]

238. Can't answer my questions, eh? I figured it out my very first election, when we got Nixon...

…because Humphrey had been so overshadowed by LBJ that everyone somehow forgot what an incredibly decent man and top-notch progressive he’d always been.

Richard Fucking Nixon.

Ta.

[ripcord]

240. See the risk when politicians lie?

"I will not allow any new oil drilling on public lands" - Joe Biden

[Hekate]

245. 51% of the country has had its bodily autonomy ripped away by a SCOTUS given to us by the GOP

Ah, but don’t ya love the scent of self-righteousness in the morning?

[inthewind21]

278. No

Not even remotely do I see it. Why, because I'm not naive enough to think any one person in the government will be able to 100% do everything. I learned and passed civics 101, I am aware of how the government works and that not even the POTUS can wave a magic wand and fix things, he's president, not king. And, I'm not obsessively focused on just the car directly in front of me, I'm watching 10 cars ahead.

[hunter]

241. Biden is President, not Emperor.

If most of the people in the United States want to pretend their own personal fossil fueled lifestyles aren't destroying the planet's natural environment then that's on them.

And it's not just the Republicans who are guilty of this.

If I was Emperor of the Earth and I had an invincible starship, I'd say, "Look guys, next week I'm going to destroy ten percent of your fossil fuel infrastructure. Here's a list of the places you'd better evacuate. Now. And I'll be back in twenty years to destroy the rest of it. Here are plans for some great alternative energy sources you can build yourself. And, by the way, if I see you taking out your frustrations on people who are already poor, people who already have tiny environmental footprints compared to you, I'll beam up all your billionaires and drop them off on a comfortable prison planet where they will no longer trouble the rest of you."

If I was running for President of the U.S.A. I don't think that would be a popular political platform.

I'm a radical environmentalist and I make no apologies for it. But my opinions do not represent the platform of the Democratic Party. What I do know is that anyone who votes for a Republican or spoiler candidate (Ralph Nader, Jill Stein, etc.) is a moron. I'll confess, Barrack Obama and Joe Biden were not my first choices for President. But once it was all sorted out and it came down to Democrats vs. Republicans I was all in with my time and my money.

[ripcord]

242. Maybe Newsom will run

I'm found of our governor and he hasn't lied to me.

[Hekate]

246. You haven't seen the DUers jumping up & down on him because his first wife is now Trump Jr's gf?

I like Newsom, too, & voted for him, but he’s not God any more than Biden is. Neither of them can walk on water — though both can swim very fast. Be careful what you wish for.

[ripcord]

249. I really don't care what other DUers think

The President sold out the environment for tax money, jobs and votes so I will vote for him if he is the final candidate but I will campaign and donate to someone else until that point.

[MrsCoffee]

261. If he is the final candidate?

You think someone would be stupid enough to try to primary him? Would you actually give money to someone trying to primary him?



Nobody worth voting for would dream of doing something so ridiculous and damaging to the party as to primary a sitting president.

[RandiFan1290]

262. Cool story, bro!

You're not going to be allowed to campaign against President Biden on DU.

[betsuni]

263. +1

[betsuni]

237. +1

[DemocraticPatriot]

244. You tell your kid that refusing to vote in the next election

will not get them a better environmental policy, especially if the Republicans win!



Joe Biden is their only hope for the present,
but they should make their displeasure with this decision known to him... via email or whatever.

[Justice]

253. Biden slashed Willow by 40% while permanently protecting sensitive land; he had no leverage to kill

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/interior-department-substantially-reduces-scope-willow-project

"Biden had no leverage re Willow. Lease was signed decades ago; courts overturned drill bans.

He could have challenged in court and delayed it 6mos, or he could negotiate and make it less bad.

He made it a LOT less bad.

You’re not an environmentalist if you’re mad about that.

Link below detailing how Biden slashed Willow by 40% while permanently protecting sensitive land.

All this on top of passing IRA and Infrastructure, representing the largest climate investment in world history.

This is an environmentalist president."

--- from @DemsInArray

[betsuni]

254. +1

[Hekate]

259. [phone]

[xmas74]

256. I'm glad my 22 year old knows that no one candidate

Or political party is perfect and knows how to look at the big picture. She may not like certain decisions but she sticks with the best person overall.
I'm also glad she knows that voting is her civic duty. She never misses an election, even local. She'd never sit out.

[betsuni]

258. +1

[GuppyGal]

257. Ahhhh to be young and ignorant and so very very righteous

[betsuni]

260. +1

[634-5789]

264. Understand what Biden said....

We still need fossil fuell for at the very least 20 more years. Not just gasoline, but lubricants of all sorts. Tell your kid that by the time he's 50 (I'm guessing here!) that the drilling for oil will be passe. Also, understand that Willow is remote and if there was a spill, it would not likely cause tremendous ecological damage. And finally, tell your kid we need that VOTE!

[Emile]

268. Going to the center will win over independent voters.

I don't believe it, but that's what I was told yesterday on du.

[inthewind21]

279. Negotiating

and getting RESULTS on a ban the courts struck down SHOULD get you the left and the center. But clearly "young" people are upset and threatening to take their ball and go home because hey, Republicans will do a much better job! Talk about cutting off you nose to spite your face!