Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:15 PM
Bleacher Creature (11,033 posts)
Michael Beschloss makes a really important point
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71 replies, 9701 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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Bleacher Creature | Mar 18 | OP |
SheltieLover | Mar 18 | #1 | |
PatSeg | Mar 19 | #67 | |
wryter2000 | Mar 18 | #2 | |
TheRickles | Mar 18 | #27 | |
wryter2000 | Mar 18 | #51 | |
Cadfael | Mar 18 | #53 | |
Dave says | Mar 18 | #60 | |
moondust | Mar 18 | #3 | |
Upthevibe | Mar 18 | #23 | |
calimary | Mar 18 | #46 | |
cilla4progress | Mar 18 | #4 | |
KPN | Mar 18 | #17 | |
Fullduplexxx | Mar 18 | #5 | |
OMGWTF | Mar 18 | #6 | |
Captain Zero | Mar 18 | #15 | |
electric_blue68 | Mar 18 | #18 | |
calimary | Mar 18 | #47 | |
electric_blue68 | Mar 18 | #49 | |
central scrutinizer | Mar 18 | #58 | |
MacKasey | Mar 18 | #16 | |
Upthevibe | Mar 18 | #25 | |
Hekate | Mar 18 | #7 | |
MurrayDelph | Mar 18 | #10 | |
Sky Jewels | Mar 18 | #21 | |
not fooled | Mar 18 | #39 | |
stopdiggin | Mar 18 | #8 | |
onenote | Mar 18 | #44 | |
Raven123 | Mar 18 | #56 | |
DENVERPOPS | Mar 18 | #61 | |
stopdiggin | Mar 19 | #70 | |
DENVERPOPS | Mar 19 | #71 | |
Cosmocat | Mar 19 | #69 | |
erronis | Mar 18 | #9 | |
Shipwack | Mar 18 | #34 | |
erronis | Mar 18 | #37 | |
True Blue American | Mar 19 | #62 | |
Ligyron | Mar 19 | #63 | |
Rebl2 | Mar 18 | #11 | |
PoindexterOglethorpe | Mar 18 | #12 | |
electric_blue68 | Mar 18 | #50 | |
momta | Mar 18 | #13 | |
Callalily | Mar 18 | #14 | |
KPN | Mar 18 | #20 | |
Kennah | Mar 18 | #19 | |
Upthevibe | Mar 18 | #22 | |
Cheezoholic | Mar 18 | #24 | |
soldierant | Mar 18 | #45 | |
FakeNoose | Mar 18 | #26 | |
dhol82 | Mar 18 | #28 | |
FakeNoose | Mar 18 | #31 | |
True Blue American | Mar 19 | #64 | |
UpInArms | Mar 18 | #29 | |
evolves | Mar 18 | #30 | |
irisblue | Mar 18 | #32 | |
temporary311 | Mar 18 | #33 | |
Poiuyt | Mar 18 | #35 | |
JI7 | Mar 18 | #36 | |
Ferrets are Cool | Mar 18 | #38 | |
True Blue American | Mar 19 | #65 | |
LittleGirl | Mar 18 | #40 | |
Historic NY | Mar 18 | #41 | |
relayerbob | Mar 18 | #42 | |
jaxexpat | Mar 18 | #43 | |
chowmama | Mar 18 | #48 | |
NNadir | Mar 18 | #52 | |
LetMyPeopleVote | Mar 18 | #54 | |
rurallib | Mar 18 | #55 | |
BigmanPigman | Mar 18 | #57 | |
tclambert | Mar 18 | #59 | |
DownriverDem | Mar 19 | #66 | |
cab67 | Mar 19 | #68 |
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:18 PM
SheltieLover (57,073 posts)
1. Nixon not having been duly punished, prison term, is precisely why magas feel so emboldened
The only way to stop bullies is by meeting their affronts with extraordinary force, physical or legal, as the case may be.
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Response to SheltieLover (Reply #1)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 11:20 AM
PatSeg (44,915 posts)
67. Or basically do to them
what they would do to lawbreakers. Nixon was quite a "Law and Order" politician and he wouldn't be nearly so lenient.
That said, he at least should have been tried and judged in a court of law. Even if he didn't go to prison if found guilty, history would forever know him as a criminal, a felon. That pardon was too easy and his crimes deserved far more attention. Meanwhile, I don't think the man ever thought he did anything wrong. Pompous and arrogant to the end. |
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:19 PM
wryter2000 (44,919 posts)
2. Hindsight
It's true, of course, but a lot easier to see now.
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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #2)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:40 PM
TheRickles (1,408 posts)
27. People were predicting this back then, too, so it's not at all hindsight.
Response to TheRickles (Reply #27)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:10 PM
wryter2000 (44,919 posts)
51. I followed Watergate closely, even watched all the hearings
When Ford pardoned Nixon, I just felt relief that it was over. I'm sure there were people who saw the error, but most of us felt that the punishment of having to resign in disgrace would be a deterrent for the future.
It might have worked if the Republican party hadn't become so corrupted. The Republican party of the early 1970's would have convicted Trump and thrown him out on his ass. I know it was an mistake, but it would have been very difficult to predict Trump and the current Republican party. |
Response to wryter2000 (Reply #51)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:38 PM
Cadfael (1,196 posts)
53. My mom sent a telegram to Ford
It read : “Add another name to the cover-up list”
My mom and dad (and I) watched every hearing that we could. She was really pissed by that pardon. |
Response to Cadfael (Reply #53)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:18 PM
Dave says (4,308 posts)
60. I was too young, but ...
… my parents felt the same way. They were pissed.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:25 PM
moondust (19,044 posts)
3. And it didn't take long.
The presidency of Ronald Reagan in the United States was marked by numerous scandals, resulting in the investigation, indictment, or conviction of over 138 administration officials, the largest number for any president in American history.
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_administration_scandals |
Response to moondust (Reply #3)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:31 PM
Upthevibe (6,336 posts)
23. moondust.......
And, of course, the right worship Reagan....He did so much harm...
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Response to Upthevibe (Reply #23)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 03:09 PM
calimary (74,882 posts)
46. No kidding. And worshipped all the while by the far wrong.
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:30 PM
cilla4progress (22,525 posts)
4. Ford's pardon of Nixon was
my first demonstration. I was a college student in Vermont at the time!
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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #4)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:15 PM
KPN (14,704 posts)
17. Well that's pretty cool! In the great state of Vermont, eh? I was a college student
a bit south of you in western MA at the same time -- but still working my summer job around then.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:35 PM
Fullduplexxx (6,822 posts)
5. That's when I 1st learned of presidential pardons
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:36 PM
OMGWTF (3,290 posts)
6. Eisenhower was the last honest Republican president.
Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush, Cheney the Dick and GeeDumbya, and now Traitor Tot -- should all have been sent to prison.
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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #6)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:08 PM
Captain Zero (5,465 posts)
15. You know, I find myself saying this far too often
Eisenhower really stood up to generals who wanted to nuke everything in the 50s. Whenever they suggested it, I read that Ike's reply always was, "THEN, WHAT?"
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Response to Captain Zero (Reply #15)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:15 PM
electric_blue68 (10,951 posts)
18. Oh, I didn't know That! Phew! I do know his "beware the Military Industrial complex" quote late...
on. (I was 7 in 1960)
A decent President. And what a great, chilling retort! ![]() |
Response to electric_blue68 (Reply #18)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 03:20 PM
calimary (74,882 posts)
47. In hindsight, that was the last time we had a Republican president
we could actually respect, if not agree with.
Eisenhower. What was it? Some seven DECADES ago? |
Response to calimary (Reply #47)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 04:10 PM
electric_blue68 (10,951 posts)
49. Definitely respect. Maybe agree with some things? Must look up his record. It's been about 62 yrs!
Response to electric_blue68 (Reply #49)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 09:56 PM
central scrutinizer (11,258 posts)
58. Read the 1956 Republican platform
Pro-union, reasonable and a stark contrast to now. They have no platform except investigating Hunter Biden’s laptop
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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #6)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:31 PM
Upthevibe (6,336 posts)
25. OMGWTF...........
I completely agree...
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:40 PM
Hekate (82,876 posts)
7. That's exactly what I have always thought
Response to Hekate (Reply #7)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:47 PM
MurrayDelph (5,019 posts)
10. Me, too
It's why I thought Obama's "looking forward, not backward" reaction to Guantanamo torture was weak tea. We might not have a DeSantis at this point if he'd followed up.
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Response to MurrayDelph (Reply #10)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:27 PM
Sky Jewels (3,339 posts)
21. Yeah, I get that Obama was afraid to rock the boat much, being the first black president,
but it was frustrating to see him capitulate too much on too many issues.
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Response to Sky Jewels (Reply #21)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:34 PM
not fooled (5,470 posts)
39. ++++++++++++++++++
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:41 PM
stopdiggin (8,270 posts)
8. I think that is kind of a facile and shallow read
The pardon may have been ill considered (from a rule of law point of view) over the long run. But - the power of the presidency (and the expansion of that envelope) can hardly be attributed wholly, or even primarily, to that one (purported) misstep.
The fear of later indictment ... Not that big a factor. |
Response to stopdiggin (Reply #8)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:42 PM
Raven123 (3,942 posts)
56. Well said. A lot has happened in 50 years
Also, President Ford never imagined the current state of American politics
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Response to Raven123 (Reply #56)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 11:43 PM
DENVERPOPS (7,592 posts)
61. Ford and countless others after him
didn't just "imagine" it, they were each instrumental in making a small piece of the current state of politics happen.............
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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #61)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 12:35 PM
stopdiggin (8,270 posts)
70. Hmm. Perhaps in the same sense
that each of of us is 'instrumental' (in a small way) for the creation of global warming. But that sort of glosses over the impact of some of the major players. Fossil fuels, chemical industry, deforestation might be slightly bigger actors? I don't think I'll ever be able to put Gerald Ford, or Bob Dole - on the same level or playing field with Newt Gingrich, Limbaugh, Cheney, Murdock, FOX, or more recently, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Taylor-Greene, or Trump.
And, yes - I do think that Dole and Ford would find the current state of the GOP (and the actions and positions taken post election) - almost beyond belief. Not the same animal at all. |
Response to stopdiggin (Reply #70)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 06:28 PM
DENVERPOPS (7,592 posts)
71. The list is endless..........NC
Response to stopdiggin (Reply #8)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 12:07 PM
Cosmocat (14,313 posts)
69. Correct
This line of thinking MASSIVELY underestimates the moral and ethical corruption of the republican party.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:43 PM
erronis (12,340 posts)
9. Be really nice to have a synopsis of the content for us musk-averse DUers.
Response to erronis (Reply #9)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:03 PM
Shipwack (1,752 posts)
34. Here ya go...
"Had President Ford not granted Nixon an almost immediate "full, free and absolute" pardon in 1974, later Presidents might not have felt so licensed to break the law." -Michael Beschloss
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Response to Shipwack (Reply #34)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:05 PM
erronis (12,340 posts)
37. Excellent. Thank you. I could/should research this myself - just want to encourage OP to add context
Response to erronis (Reply #37)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 08:03 AM
True Blue American (16,848 posts)
62. Ford announced
“This is the end of a long national nightmare!” When in truth it was the beginning! Now we have a bought Congress, corrupt Supreme Court and Judges!
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Response to True Blue American (Reply #62)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 08:39 AM
Ligyron (7,031 posts)
63. By gawd you're right!
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:47 PM
Rebl2 (10,334 posts)
11. So very
True!
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:48 PM
PoindexterOglethorpe (24,256 posts)
12. And at least some of us knew that
on the day of the pardon.
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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #12)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 04:14 PM
electric_blue68 (10,951 posts)
50. I was a bit out of college. I was angry that he was pardoned but wasn't learned enough to consider..
later ramifications!
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 12:50 PM
momta (3,969 posts)
13. My husband makes that point all the time. n/t
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:05 PM
Callalily (13,963 posts)
14. That may hold some truth,
but with a personality as Trump has, who totally thinks he's above the law, I don't think in his case it would matter.
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Response to Callalily (Reply #14)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:26 PM
KPN (14,704 posts)
20. Yeah, in his case especially. Nevertheless, it was and is emblematic of the failures of
our society's justice system relative to white collar crime generally, and it seems they have only gotten worse with time. There is no question that weak response to corrupt, immoral and even illegal acts only encourages more of the same by those who feel entitled to act in those manners.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:16 PM
Kennah (10,252 posts)
19. Very true, but in 1974, the idea of President Donald Trump was anathema
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:29 PM
Upthevibe (6,336 posts)
22. Bleacher Creature..........
Thanks for posting.....
I love Michael Beschloss.... |
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:31 PM
Cheezoholic (1,326 posts)
24. Dick "Shotgun" Cheney did more to expand the power
and protect the office of the executive than anybody in the 20th/21st century.
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Response to Cheezoholic (Reply #24)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 03:00 PM
soldierant (5,085 posts)
45. The problem with "protecting the office"
is that in theory it is to protect the state. But when actually applied, it does just the opposite. By protecting a criminal office holder, it destroys the integrity of the office it is supposed to protect. One might call that a paradox.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:36 PM
FakeNoose (28,416 posts)
26. If Ford hadn't agreed to the pardon, then Nixon wouldn't have resigned
We would have had 2.5 awful years of trying to get Nixon to leave the White House by any means possible.
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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #26)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:44 PM
dhol82 (9,294 posts)
28. Wasn't he the who pushed the idea of a unitary president?
That would certainly help democracy.
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Response to dhol82 (Reply #28)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:52 PM
FakeNoose (28,416 posts)
31. I don't remember that, but it may be true
However I DO remember why Nixon selected Gerald Ford as his VP after the criminal Spiro Agnew resigned. Nixon's motive was to nominate someone that Congress would approve quickly without much fuss. Nixon also saw Ford as someone who was unlikely to be seen as his replacement, if indeed Nixon were to be impeached. He wanted Ford simply because everyone thought he was "unpresidential," and not very ambitious.
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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #26)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 10:02 AM
True Blue American (16,848 posts)
64. Ford really thought he was saving us from that
But instead set up what we see today.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:47 PM
UpInArms (50,597 posts)
29. Been saying that since he did it
Ford was a stupid weak monster
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:48 PM
evolves (5,264 posts)
30. This is 100% true.
We have reaped the bitter harvest of that mistake for 50 years and counting.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 01:57 PM
irisblue (30,687 posts)
32. 2019 article by Professors Kevin Kruse & Julian Zelizer on this.
The article was published during the first impeachment of the apricothellbeast, so it speaks to that point.
source-https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/02/04/democrats-impeach-trump-accountability-watergate-gerald-ford-richard-nixon-column/2762361002/ title-Watergate's lesson? If Democrats want to heal America, Trump must be held accountable snip-"Accountability is essential to the long-term health of our democracy, more important than even healing the nation’s partisan divisions." snip-"The United States learned this lesson 45 years ago. In August 1974, President Richard Nixon resigned from office in disgrace as soon as it became clear that the House would vote to impeach him for obstructing justice in the Watergate scandal and, moreover, that the Senate would likely vote to remove him from office. In a flash, Vice President Gerald Ford assumed the presidency." snip-" On Sept. 8, 1974, Ford announced to the nation on television that he was issuing a “free, full and absolute pardon” to Nixon for any crimes he might have committed as president. Further legal investigations and prosecutions would paralyze the nation, Ford warned, as “ugly passions would again be roused, our people would again be polarized in their opinions, and the credibility of our free institutions of government would again be challenged at home and abroad.” snip-"The nation has continued to pay for its failure to hold Nixon accountable. The divisions that Ford had hoped to paper over with his pardon have only continued to widen. Moreover, the general trend — toward a vague sense of “healing” instead of holding specific wrongdoers accountable — has only continued to erode the public’s faith in government over the ensuing decades. High-level officials in the Reagan administration clearly subverted the law in the Iran-Contra scandal but escaped any real punishment thanks to pardons from President George H.W. Bush. War crimes committed during the George W. Bush administration, meanwhile, were swept under the rug when the Obama White House refused to insist on accountability there." more there, worth the time to read IMO |
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:02 PM
temporary311 (873 posts)
33. Not punishing Nixon,
or the Business Plot conspirators, or the Confederate traitors, all contributed to that. Hopefully Trump and the other Jan. 6th plotters don't get added to the list of right wing evil that our country gives a pass to.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:03 PM
Poiuyt (17,711 posts)
35. In this case, I disagree
Donald Trump is a sociopath. He doesn't know right from wrong like a normal human.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:03 PM
JI7 (87,745 posts)
36. This wouldn't apply to Trump
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:15 PM
Ferrets are Cool (19,403 posts)
38. Let me fix that for you Michael.....later REPUBLICANS
might not have felt so licensed to break the law. There haven't been any Democrats to take this license.
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Response to Ferrets are Cool (Reply #38)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 10:04 AM
True Blue American (16,848 posts)
65. Great point!
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:37 PM
LittleGirl (7,736 posts)
40. I was 14 I think
And I was furious about Ford pardoning Nixon.
He was a crook! And then came the biggest crook in the world! 45 |
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:40 PM
Historic NY (36,574 posts)
41. Absolutely
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:44 PM
relayerbob (5,876 posts)
42. A lot of us felt that way then, too
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 02:47 PM
jaxexpat (5,181 posts)
43. Well, no shit.
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 04:04 PM
chowmama (187 posts)
48. Exactly!
I have always blamed Ford for all of this. And if Trump gets off, the next one will go all the way and we can kiss democracy goodbye.
Ford said in later life that the pardon was not only 'to spare the country', but also for 'friendship's sake'. He only found as time went on that Nixon didn't have any friends, including Ford. Nixon was incapable of friendship. So it really was all for nothing. |
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:14 PM
NNadir (31,082 posts)
52. We had a nice lunch with an old friend of ours, an attorney, and I made exactly that point. n/t.
Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:48 PM
LetMyPeopleVote (126,732 posts)
54. The Ford Pardon helped elect Jimmy Carter
Ford was stupid to issue this pardon and paid the price
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:20 PM
rurallib (60,506 posts)
55. said that the night Ford pardoned him and
have been saying ever since that the lesson Repugs learned was not that doing illegal stuff was bad, no - the lesson they learned was that you can get away with it.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 09:24 PM
BigmanPigman (48,815 posts)
57. Enough people were pissed off at Ford that he wasn't elected.
That was a different time....before The Christian Right, before Fux Ruse and before social media influences.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:16 PM
tclambert (10,967 posts)
59. In my elementary school, teachers taught that in America "no one is above the law."
They stopped teaching that after Ford pardoned Nixon. And when I mentioned it to a current teacher, he just laughed and laughed.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 10:54 AM
DownriverDem (5,826 posts)
66. Ford lost
because of the Nixon pardon.
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Response to Bleacher Creature (Original post)
Sun Mar 19, 2023, 11:40 AM
cab67 (2,485 posts)
68. I've said this very thing on DU
A number of people said I was dead wrong to put any of the blame on Ford, but I stand by it.
Ford’s intent may have been different from those of Limbaugh, Gingrich, or Murdoch, but the effect was the same. |